New Medic Style Take The Fun Away?

(potkettleblack) #81

Chances are, it operates exactly like the molotov.
You throw it, it eats up a certain amount of your power bar and then it replenishes.

(Laneljh) #82

I demo’d Brink at QuakeCon, and let me tell you, the way the Medic operates is quite enjoyable.

I hate healing people in games, but it was actually NOT boring in Brink. You actually feel like your helping your team win more then you would if you had to sit next to your mate and heal him with the risk of both of you getting blown to hell.

(H0RSE) #83

I hate healing people in games, but it was actually NOT boring in Brink.

But this is just the thing - If you found the old way “boring” then you’re missing the point. Medic players like myself, love the rush of running through enemy fire to make critical revives, and then running out, avoiding death. This is what the topic is about - if removing the “rush” of manual revives, is going to make Medic (to seasoned medic players) less fun.

(Laneljh) #84

I guess I just like the idea of healing/reviving/buffing your mates but still being able to eliminate the enemy at a faster pace.

(darthmob) #85

[QUOTE=H0RSE;245577]But this is just the thing - If you found the old way “boring” then you’re missing the point. Medic players like myself, love the rush of running through enemy fire to make critical revives, and then running out, avoiding death. This is what the topic is about - if removing the “rush” of manual revives, is going to make Medic (to seasoned medic players) less fun.[/QUOTE]Your worries are unfounded. Reviving and gibbing are as important as always and that is what makes it fun to play. So you can revive from a distance? The enemy will adapt and shoot you sooner. No worries you’ll still get your rush.

My only fear is that the context sensitive stuff is rubbish. That’s the good thing of doing it manually. If you do it wrong it’s your fault and not that of the game that wrongly interprets what you aimed at.

(tokamak) #86

Still it sounds way less frantic than actually having to jump on top of your patient in order to get him up. It seems like a console artefact (which it is great for). As for as it stands now, without having played it, just going by the rumours I definitely hope the PC is getting treated differently here. Certain features don’t need to be as automated as they’re for consoles.

(darthmob) #87

Sure it sounds like you’ll just be standing around handing out syringes to fallen teammates. In ET / ETQW you had to move to revive your teammates and stay alive. Here you still have to move to stay alive. Standing around most likely will get you killed in no time. Even more when every class can carry explosives and or the grenade launcher.

Sometimes it’s not the gameplay that makes it frantic but what you make of it. Compare Q3 on consoles and PC. It’s a difference like day and night. Why should it be different here?

(**** yeah I’m optimistic this morning)

(tokamak) #88

Tossing needles does make the moving to stay alive much easier doesn’t it? No more pauses no more kneels, it all seems less elaborate.

(Qhullu) #89

yeah, they might as well have made it automatic when a medic is inside certain radius from a corpse, i don’t see the challenge in looking at the corpse and pressing a button. yes, it will become trivial mid fight as well, railgun flick shots in Quake games are the same thing, only the target is much smaller and moving.

the only honest reason for abandoning the revive mechanic the guys at Nerve Software came up with for RtCW mp i can think of is the fact that it’s awkward to do with a gamepad.

(H0RSE) #90

You didn’t have to kneel to revive. I remember in ET, when there would be a bunch bodies close to each other, I would just jump and sprint from body to body, reviving as I went along.

(tokamak) #91

No you didn’t, but kneeling did make the reviving easier.

I think that in this respect, treating consoles and pc differently isn’t too much asked. On a console I would prefer a longer range as well, but on a pc the throwing range can decreased.

I might be doing SD a disservice by underestimating them like this, but I certainly do hope that the fact that some handlings are easier to do on a pc than on a console is taken into account.

(H0RSE) #92

“looking at a corpse and pushing a button” is exactly how revives work in ET and QW, except you’re closer to the body…

I see this “complaint” a lot on here, saying “so and so won’t take any skill.”

“No weapon banks?! now completing objectives takes no skill!” or
“Now switching weapons/grenades takes no skill” or
“Now reviving takes no skill.”

NONE of those things should be so complicated and/or difficult, that they take skill to setup/perform. The action of changing to a tool to complete an objective, should not take “skill” - it should be intuitive. Actually completing the objective is where the skill lies, not in how many buttons or how difficult it was to get to that point.

Same goes for switching weapons and revives. Switching to my nade instead of having a dedicated button, doesn’t involve skill - actually killing the guy with my nade does. And reviving - being able to switch between a needle and medkit isn’t what makes a good Medic - Keeping your teammates alive does. Avoiding death when your team needs you, does. Prioritizing and knowing who and when to heal/revive, does.

All those factors still apply in Brink - you’re still gonna need to avoid death. You’re still gonna have to know who and when to heal and you’re still gonna have to get close enough to initiate heals and revives.

Some of you seem to think that EVERY aspect of Brink needs to incorporate some sort of cumbersome button combination in order to be considered “skillful,” whether it’s selecting your tool, changing weapons, running and jumping, navigating the menu or whatever. It’s almost like some of you have this sort of false sense of pride or accomplishment. You played ET and QW over the years and you really nailed the weapon bank system. You could switch to any weapon, quickly and efficiently, any tool on the fly. Whether you were in battle, running, jumping, whatever, you knew your way around the system like the back of your hand - and then Brink came around and removed it all, leaving you feeling cheated or left out. Like somehow, SD owes it to you to always make games the way you want them. This is how some people on here come off as, and this is coming from someone who played countless hours of RTCW, ET and QW. Someone who did learn the system like the back of his hand. I even did clan/league play in RTCW and ET, so it’s not like I haven’t experienced it for myself.

(tokamak) #93

I think we can all agree on that the closer you need to be to the body, the more difficult it will be to revive. And I’m not talking about the handling itself, there’s also a greater risk involved which made the the battles more tactical. You could see who the opponent medic was attempting to revive and you could reasses the situation according to that.

Let the handling be as easy and unintuitive as it can be, but don’t take away the risk and clarity it provided to everyone.

(H0RSE) #94

Let the handling be as easy and unintuitive as it can be, but don’t take away the risk and clarity it provided to everyone.

But the risk is still present. It’s not like a Medic can just stand in one spot and constantly heal/revive anyone on the map. He still need to be withing range to perform heals and revives, and since this is how ALL Medics operate in Brink, it will just become the norm - players will adapt and understand how Medics work, and Medics will need to exercise the same degree of caution and tactics they did in ET and QW.

(tokamak) #95

Sure it’s still present, and sure it’s still balanced, but it’s less challenging, less clear and less interesting. Not longer having to expose yourself as much strips a layer of the depth away.

(H0RSE) #96

But it’s only less challenging to you because you have something to compare it to - something else you are used to or accustomed to. In this respect, you could find a game where Brink is more challenging. The outcome is the same between all of SD’s titles, and as players continue you to play Brink, so will the challenge. This whole thing basically just amounts to nothing more than some old guy complaining to a bunch of kids about how things aren’t like they were back in his day.

(tokamak) #97

It’s not melancholy being the motivation here, I still play ET(QW) and I still like the way it works. What bothers me is the soft skill ceiling that rests upon this new mechanic. People won’t be able to stand out in the reviving department as much as they can be in the ET games. The further away you can throw that needle, the more trivial the act becomes. Which is a shame and not at all necessary on the PC.

I have yet to hear one single good argument why it would need a substantial throwing distance. I understand what it does for consoles, but in no way does it add to the PC game.

(H0RSE) #98

And what I’m trying to get across to people is that, the only reason it has a “soft skill ceiling” is because you are comparing it to something else, NOT because it’s just an easy game. The challenge and “skill” involved in Brink will come into its own - the mechanics which seem less skillful to you, will need players to be just as skillful to fulfill the roles properly, just like the differences in skill playing a Medic in ET and a Medic in TF2.

People won’t be able to stand out in the reviving department as much as they can be in the ET games.

This is pure speculation. To say that players won’t get the same amount of recognition that they do performing the same action in a different, similar game, is ridiculous.

The further away you can throw that needle, the more trivial the act becomes. Which is a shame and not at all necessary on the PC.

Again - missing the point. The process leading to the end result doesn’t, and shouldn’t, involve a great deal of frustration or cumbersome controls - or how many of you put - involve a certain degree of “skill.” The process should be as streamlined and intuitive as possible - so every player is on an even playing field, and “skill” is measured in how and when a player chooses to use his tools and the end result, not the actual process leading up to it.

I have yet to hear one single good argument why it would need a substantial throwing distance. I understand what it does for consoles, but in no way does it add to the PC game.

Who said there is a “substantial” throwing distance? From the gameplay I’ve seen, the distance isn’t all that far.

(tokamak) #99

Exactly my worry. I’m not saying being a medic in TF2 isn’t exciting but it definitely needs less skill on the player’s behalf to do well there.

This is pure speculation. To say that players won’t get the same amount of recognition that they do performing the same action in a different, similar game, is ridiculous.

It really doesn’t take a crystal ball to say that a player that needs to lean over someone’s body in order to revive it, is a more obvious way of reviving that someone tossing it as a distance.

Again - missing the point. The process leading to the end result doesn’t, and shouldn’t, involve a great deal of frustration or cumbersome controls - or how many of you put - involve a certain degree of “skill.”

I think you’re missing my point here, I’m not talking about the controls. I think you would love it if I did, but alas, I don’t give a toss about the controls here. A player can SMART button auto pilot to revive a corpse for all I care. I’m talking about how much a player reveals his plan and how much he exposes himself in order to revive someone. I would appreciate it if you stopped arguing about the controls with me, there are other people willing to defend that point, not me.

Who said there is a “substantial” throwing distance? From the gameplay I’ve seen, the distance isn’t all that far.

From what I’ve seen on reactor is that it still several times further than the current ETQW and W:ET. Which gives me the opportunity to repeat my main point: PC and Consoles need to be looked at differently. The ‘throw a needle’ clearly is an implementation to make the life of consolers easier, and I’m fine with that, I encourage that. But the PC doesn’t need it, nor should it want it. The throwing distance needs to be as close as is ‘intuitively’ possible, so the thrilling part of this type of game is ensured.

(Qhullu) #100

i just meant that when you’ve played the game long enough, you will not have to take your attention away from a fight, and you will not have to put yourself in a disadvantageous position to do a revive. you hear a teammate fall down and it’s just a flick of the mouse and a press of a button to revive them. you may have to take a peek if sound and knowledge of level geometry aren’t enough to tell exactly where the corpse is, but they will be in the vast majority of the cases.

now this is fine if their goal was to make it so that as long as a medic is alive and has juice for revives, the team will stay alive, making the fights whack-a-mole kind of things until the medic is dead and doesn’t have self revives. which is why i said they might as well have made it automatic, unless medics have very limited amount of revives and so need to decide who to spend them on and who not to.

i’m not sure how i feel about the corpse getting to decide when to wake up, usually the medic has a much better understanding of what is happening in the area, or should have at least. and the medic used to have to find an opening to both revive and wait for the resurrection to happen while not being able to shoot. with this system the medic only needs to find a way to move to the general area (most of the time they’ll already be there) and a fraction of a second to throw a needle. i don’t know what the corpse should do, if they are in a place where they can’t be gibbed by any of the enemies at the moment (either because they are otherwise occupied or because of level geometry), they likely can’t be shot at either so they should just revive themselves. and if they are in a place where they can be gibbed by someone on the enemy team, they most likely will be and so should revive themselves. i don’t know when it would be beneficial for the team for them to wait.