Meet the Medic!

(INF3RN0) #61

FOPS needs to be more than ammo bags on wheels. I don’t get why people are so afraid of medic being more of a support, when that’s about all a fops is currently.

(warbie) #62

He would/should be more than that - but ammo would the key to making him an essential class. Engineers are more than a pair of pliers, but that’s the only reason they’re needed. This is what was so good in RTCW and not as well done in ET/ET:QW/Brink - you had three key, simple classes that everything else was bolted onto.

I also hear what you’re saying re. f2p, but don’t think that means we need to add mechanics for the sake of it. The core basics could remain the same - we just need different load outs. I’m dreading ending up with 10s of classes all with different levels of health, speed, energy recharge rates, hs multiplier bonuses, area effect buffs. It would be one big cluster ****.

(Valdez) #63

Not really sure if a medics mechanics matter to the wider f2p audience, I think what does matter is that it actually works properly. Now when it comes to weapon mechanics then I agree. More options when it comes to weaponry would definitely make the game appeal to a wider audience.

(INF3RN0) #64

[QUOTE=warbie;425998]

I also hear what you’re saying re. f2p, but don’t think that means we need to add mechanics for the sake of it. The core basics could remain the same - we just need different load outs. I’m dreading ending up with 10s of classes all with different levels of health, speed, energy recharge rates, hs multiplier bonuses, area effect buffs. It would be one big cluster ****.[/QUOTE]

There’s the issue of player rewards for unlocking content and possible match-making features as well. There’s probably other ways to go about it, but that would need some discussing on the alternative system to replace it.

(INF3RN0) #65

I was replying to the general statement, not specifically medics.

(ImageOmega) #66

I agree with Kendle and his whiskey.

(ImageOmega) #67

Player rewards could simply be like achievements. For example: “You’ve revived 100 players, here’s a new doo-rag!”.

(nailzor) #68

Or free puppies, Pug puppies!

Glad Kendel got the thread back on track - Medic = heal people and shoot people, keep it simple. When I think back to other games and threads of “best player of X class” the Medic class was rated on who was a great support class but also ability to carry their weight when they were on their own.

(aowblacky) #69

i mean that i would like to see weapons dropping after gibbing someone. and if its the same weapon as u are using, you should get the ammo inside the dropped weapon… or be able to pickup the (SAME) weapon and get the ammo wich was inside the dropped weapon. but you should not be able to pickup any other weapons / pick up another weapon wich isnt the same as ur using.
i hope its understandable now :slight_smile:

(nailzor) #70

[QUOTE=aowblacky;426056]i mean that i would like to see weapons dropping after gibbing someone. and if its the same weapon as u are using, you should get the ammo inside the dropped weapon… or be able to pickup the (SAME) weapon and get the ammo wich was inside the dropped weapon. but you should not be able to pickup any other weapons / pick up another weapon wich isnt the same as ur using.
i hope its understandable now :)[/QUOTE]

I can get on board with this.

(scre4m.) #71

the unlocking content is a certain factor that makes people play a game.
But it is not the factor to make someone play a game for more than 50 hours. I’ve noticed that for myself in BF3. in the beginning everything is nice and shiny ( after all the graphics are amazing), but after unlocking the weapons and having some fun with them, there was no big motivation to keep playing the game for me.
Not sure how it came, but I guess it is because of the learning curve in the game. You get to know everything you need for combat in 20 hours. After that I had a certain skill level from which I did not improve a lot.
In DB we see a different learning curve. I think I should have 20 hours in this game already. And I suck at short and mid range, as well as with sniper and the fops and engi weapon. For sure the lack of fps makes sniping too hard for me atm, but I dont want to use this as an excuse.
You need more time to reach a reaonsable skill level in this game. thats why you dont need big (weapon) unlocks imo. You have to spend like 100 hours just to play on a good skill level with any class. And if we add many different loadouts for each class this will take even longer.

And maybe we should think about rewards for those whose stick to the game longer. Cosmetical Rewards. See League Of Legends or TeamFortress 2.
people play 4 weeks just to get a part of an outfit they want.
This keeps balance problems out of the game and still is a good reward for those who find simply playing not rewarding enough.

MATCHMAKING: I always hated this until CS:GO.

You were kept away from the idiots you see on CS GO pubs really good after some weeks of playing
You get a skill rank ( according to how much matches you won) and more important: TKs on purpose or leaving the game during the match results in penalties:
1 penalty : 1 hour
2 Penalties: 24 hours
3 penalties: 7 days
ban from matchmaking.
Matchmaking is no must have, but if you bring it, bring it with a penalty system.

(Kendle) #72

Well, I’ve slept on it, and … I’m even more convinced than ever that trying to micro-manage classes by giving them a bit of this for doing a bit of that is complete and utter bollocks.

15HP for 30 seconds for healing someone? Why, because if it was only 10HP or only 20 seconds no way they’re getting that med-pack?

If the game has buffs for doing stuff, 1 of 4 scenarios apply :-

  1. You’d do it anyway, regardless of the buff.
  2. You wouldn’t do it anyway, regardless of the buff.
  3. You’d do it for the buff, including stuff that doesn’t need to be done, or is even detrimental to the team, just to get the buff.
  4. You’d figure out a way to get the buff without doing whatever it is the buff was designed to encourage you to do.

Any attempt to devise a complex system of rewards is like fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

Keep it simple, each class serves a purpose, no one class can survive out in the field without help from another.

Ammo drop needs to go, to break the Medic’s self-sufficiency, and to save the F/Ops class, who’s an endangered species right now.

This will establish a level base from which further balance can be derived, like increasing / decreasing starting ammo, balancing the guns etc. or whatever is felt necessary, but at the moment we don’t have a level base because Medics can do one thing no other class can do, survive on their own, and no proper class balance can be derived until that fundamental flaw is fixed.

(nailzor) #73

[QUOTE=Kendle;426081]I’m even more convinced than ever that trying to micro-manage classes by giving them a bit of this for doing a bit of that is complete and utter bollocks.
[/QUOTE]

Complete and utter bullocks!!! +1 nah… +2

(warbie) #74

[QUOTE=Kendle;426081]Ammo drop needs to go, to break the Medic’s self-sufficiency, and to save the F/Ops class, who’s an endangered species right now.

This will establish a level base from which further balance can be derived, like increasing / decreasing starting ammo, balancing the guns etc. or whatever is felt necessary, but at the moment we don’t have a level base because Medics can do one thing no other class can do, survive on their own, and no proper class balance can be derived until that fundamental flaw is fixed.[/QUOTE]

I hear that.

(tokamak) #75

[QUOTE=Kendle;426081]Well, I’ve slept on it, and … I’m even more convinced than ever that trying to micro-manage classes by giving them a bit of this for doing a bit of that is complete and utter bollocks.

15HP for 30 seconds for healing someone? Why, because if it was only 10HP or only 20 seconds no way they’re getting that med-pack?[/QUOTE]

Oh come on man, these examples use arbitrary numbers to explain the mechanic. Nobody has a single clue what the real values should be so there really is no point in criticising them.

(Kendle) #76

It’s the principle. At what number do you do the thing the reward rewards you for, and at what number do you not? If there’s a number at which you don’t do the thing tell me which servers you play on so I can avoid them. If there is no number why have the mechanic in the first place?

(shirosae) #77

Oh for pity’s sake. I should just embrace this fiction and apply for my justice league badge.

No, 15HP for 30 seconds when reviving someone, because they’re random numbers I plucked out of the air that sound like they might let a medic survive an extra bodyshot when trying to revive someone else if that’s what they’re trying to do during a push. I didn’t even suggest the +HP on revive thing, I just thought it was an interesting idea worth trying out to see how it played.

I can see the point of it; you make being a medic who does revives under fire less risky when compared to one who doesn’t.

What I suggested (in response to making medic’s gun suck so they can’t rambo) was that the charge bars for medpacks and self healing be split up, so rambo self-healing and team support aren’t in direct conflict. Apparently this is a horrific scrub pat-on-the-head xbox live awardfest, though no-one has actually explained why.

If you think that self-healing and other-healing should be in conflict because you think that choice (or whatever) important, I can understand that. Is that your problem? I don’t see this weird bribing thing you keep talking about happening. I suspect that you don’t see it happening either, though I don’t understand why it’s even coming up in that case.

[QUOTE=Kendle;426081]If the game has buffs for doing stuff, 1 of 4 scenarios apply :-

  1. You’d do it anyway, regardless of the buff.
  2. You wouldn’t do it anyway, regardless of the buff.
  3. You’d do it for the buff, including stuff that doesn’t need to be done, or is even detrimental to the team, just to get the buff.
  4. You’d figure out a way to get the buff without doing whatever it is the buff was designed to encourage you to do.

Any attempt to devise a complex system of rewards is like fleas arguing over who owns the dog.[/quote]

See this is the thing: You’re arguing against something I’m not suggesting. I’m not trying to give people a complex system of pat on the heads. Splitting the charge bar into two charge bars is not a complex system of rewards. To answer 1-4;

1: Yes. And even though you did, you didn’t lose any ability to self heal for it. Your pew pew wasn’t harmed for the sake of doing support.
2: No. And even though you didn’t, you didn’t gain any ability to self heal for it. You didn’t conserve any pew pew by not doing support.

3 & 4: You’ve talked about exploits before, but not actually how they’d happen, or give any evidence to show how it could happen from splitting the charge bar up. I don’t know how throwing medpacks at a teammate injured by enemy fire or reviving players who haven’t been tk’d could possibly be detrimental to the team. I don’t know how anyone could possibly exploit that to get more than they do by playing properly. You haven’t explained how, and neither has anyone else.

If you’re talking about some nebulous other buff that does some unspecified thing for performing some unspecified action, then I agree. I’m not trying to pat people on the head. I’m trying to make medic an easier class to balance by altering 1&2.

This is not an attempt to keep gib ammo. It’s a response to a suggestion to nerf medic’s combat ability.

[QUOTE=Kendle;426081]Keep it simple, each class serves a purpose, no one class can survive out in the field without help from another.

Ammo drop needs to go, to break the Medic’s self-sufficiency, and to save the F/Ops class, who’s an endangered species right now.

This will establish a level base from which further balance can be derived, like increasing / decreasing starting ammo, balancing the guns etc. or whatever is felt necessary, but at the moment we don’t have a level base because Medics can do one thing no other class can do, survive on their own, and no proper class balance can be derived until that fundamental flaw is fixed.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, if you remove gib ammo, you need to balance again on top of that - that’s all I was saying. Some people appeared to be claiming that all we needed was gib ammo gone.

(tokamak) #78

We’re not even talking about rewards here. I’d love to have that discussion because I’m a sucker for killstreaks. What we’re now talking about is reinventing the way the medic’s self-heal works. At that point it’s no longer about what people are willing to accept but about what keeps the class playable.

(Kendle) #79

And the reason is I don’t know what you’re suggesting. With each post you put more flesh on the bones, but at the beginning of this discussion I didn’t know the detail. Maybe you’ve produced detailed proposals elsewhere and you assume I’ve read them?

Without the detail how can I? I’m talking in general terms, from experience. ET took RTCW and added XP, within days players were exploiting it, the game suffered as a result. I’d like to prevent that happening again.

Not me, or at least I apologize if it appeared I was. I just think we need to get rid of the ammo drop first, then see where we are, then see what else needs to be done. Unless we do that we’re just sticking plasters on a gaping wound, IMHO.

(tokamak) #80

I would be in favour of that. It would make the field ops more prominent. In turn the field ops is also going to need to be able to dish out ammo more easily. And in turn, to prevent him from being a self-supplying ammo depot he should have the same mechanic as proposed for the medic. In other words, he can’t pick up his own ammo but in stead he receives ammo for every pack he hands out to someone else.