Meet the Medic!

[Kendle]

… to prevent him from being a self-supplying ammo depot he should have the same mechanic as proposed for the medic. In other words, he can’t pick up his own ammo but in stead he receives ammo for every pack he hands out to someone else.

No. You might get selfish F/Ops, or selfish Medics, as a result, but linking the receiving to the giving in this way is where the potential for exploiting comes in. I’d want to try it without that mechanic first, and in fact leave that as a last ditch measure if we can’t get it to work any other way.

[shirosae]

And the reason is I don’t know what you’re suggesting. With each post you put more flesh on the bones, but at the beginning of this discussion I didn’t know the detail. Maybe you’ve produced detailed proposals elsewhere and you assume I’ve read them?

I haven’t put anything hugely detailed anywhere, though I have suggested splitting up self heal and other healing into two bars before.

What I’ve put forward is basically this: Medic self healing and medpacks to heal other players can be split up somehow, so the relationship between the two can be balanced without needing to touch any other classes. That’s it. That’s what I’m suggesting. That you don’t need to nerf the medic’s gun to make it do support; you can start by making support and rambo less mutually exclusive with the mechanics.

The exact mechanisms I don’t know. All I’m saying is that you could add things like that in so there’s less need to do blanket changes and then secondary balances. You’ve jumped straight from that to WoW/Brink.

Without the detail how can I? I’m talking in general terms, from experience. ET took RTCW and added XP, within days players were exploiting it, the game suffered as a result. I’d like to prevent that happening again.

Without the detail, why would you? In response to a statement that we can split up medic healing, we go straight to ‘All rewards systems are exploitable’?

I can understand a ‘this sort of thing could be exploitable if not done carefully’, but I would have thought that was obvious.

Not me, or at least I apologize if it appeared I was. I just think we need to get rid of the ammo drop first, then see where we are, then see what else needs to be done. Unless we do that we’re just sticking plasters on a gaping wound, IMHO.

A few posts here and in the other medic threads along the lines of ‘gib ammo gone only +1’. I wasn’t sure if you did or didn’t. Stuff like ‘It doesn’t matter if engineers go off on their own’ kinda suggested it.

[tokamak]

No. You might get selfish F/Ops, or selfish Medics, as a result,

And I see that as a bad thing. If people are being selfish fops and medics then clearly they feel that those classes are doing a better job at what the soldier and covert ought to be best at. That indicates a clear flaw in the class balance.

And really can’t respect this constant fear of exploits. Yeah, true, implementing deeper mechanics always open up exploits. However, unless you can precisely point out how and when a mechanic can be exploited I’m not going to take a blanket statement of possible unknown exploits as a valid reason not to do something.

This indirect self-beneficial mechanic has no apparent exploits, and if you want show me otherwise then be my guest.

[warbie]

If a medic can’t heal himself he’ll lose a significant amount of survivability. Do we want medics hiding and waiting for their health to regen, slowing the game down and turning him into a class that hangs around at the back? Balancing issues aside, that would piss off whole legions of RTCW/ET fans who like their games fast and aggressive.

Deciding whether to heal yourself or a teammate is one of the many things that makes games like this interesting. To take away that option will only detract from the overall experience - as would adding overly contrived mechanics designed to try and force teamplay in a teambased shooter. Sometimes when reading this forum it feels like we’ve been given the chance to make Chess 2 and have decided to try giving the queen a lazer. If a medic doesn’t dish out med packs, or if an LT doesn’t give ammo, then they’re just not very good at the game and the team will suffer. And that’s fine.

[tokamak]

Sometimes it feels like we’re talking in a different language! We’re not talking about removing his self-heal. We’re seeking to replace his direct self-heal with an indirect self-heal, or at least a part of it.

Deciding whether to heal yourself or a teammate is one of the many things that makes games like this interesting.

Except that the answer is that it’s always better to heal yourself first. The real question is whether or not you should be actively engaging as much in combat as much as the other team-mates due to the drain it will have on your medic resources. In this case people simply enjoy fighting more than healing, everyone wants to be the aciton hero so in the end their medkits will end up going to themselves.

I’d like to see the medic’s main responsibility to keep the team ‘up and fighting’. This is nothing to be sniffed at. It’s a deeply rewarding experience and having such medics on either team makes the combat more interesting. It makes the battles last longer and it stops the game from being a collection of short-lived skirmishes while the rest of the team is on their way to die in the next short skirmish.

That’s why we need to change the medic from the action hero that sometimes dishes out a medpack if he’s feeling generous to the involved field-doctor that is obsessed with keeping his team up at all costs. Fighting is important but it should be his secondary priority.

[warbie]

Except that the answer is that it’s always better to heal yourself first

I disagree and often find myself with a slither of health and desperately trying to hide behind things after dishing out med packs to the team. This is the whole point - it’s a call you have to make when things get interesting. Sometimes you’re more valuable to the team alive and kicking, other times you have to take risks - you can go hero or field doctor.

//edit. and by indirect healing do you mean getting health for healing other players? I see the reasoning behind it, but just don’t think it’s a good idea (and can’t begin to imagine the odd knock on effects it will have to the game whole). You’ll end up with injured, roaming medics looking for people to heal when they should be sticking to the objective.

[tokamak]

You’ll never find yourself going in with a slither of health in order to hand out packs to the team. However, if it was indirect healing then you’d find yourself forced to go in and heal people to bring yourself back from the brink by healing others.

[warbie]

You’ll never find yourself going in with a slither of health in order to hand out packs to the team.

I’m afraid I do Mosty when trying to prop up a struggling defence or when in the thick of it and trying to keep the engies up. This could well be the result of years of RTCW in which this was often the best thing to do for the team. Not so much in DB at the moment, I’ll grant you. Even more than ET, DB encourages the rambo medic.

[Kendle]

And really can’t respect this constant fear of exploits. Yeah, true, implementing deeper mechanics always open up exploits. However, unless you can precisely point out how and when a mechanic can be exploited I’m not going to take a blanket statement of possible unknown exploits as a valid reason not to do something.

Unless you can precisely point out what the mechanic is I can’t precisely point out how it can be exploited, all I can say is if it didn’t exist it couldn’t be, so the case for adding it becomes justifying it AND demonstrating it’s immunity from abuse.

This indirect self-beneficial mechanic has no apparent exploits, and if you want show me otherwise then be my guest.

Really? If Medics get health for healing, 2 friends collude so that if one needs healing the other offers himself up to be damaged. If it’s FF off he’d need to expose himself to the enemy to get damaged (might be a bit difficult), if it’s FF on it’s easy. If Medics don’t get health for healing team-mates they’ve damaged themselves, just add a 3rd friend.

If doing this grants some other reward (regardless of what it is, as long as it has value to the exploiter), then you have Medics running off into a corner and stat-padding, like what plagued BF2 in the early days.

I see in the bottom left corner of the scoreboard there’s a level number and total XP amount. If these even so much as grant a shiny medal at some point someone somewhere will grind them out rather than acquire them “honestly”. When DOD:S added achievements people set up achievement grinding servers just so they could get them without having to trouble themselves playing the game to do it. Sad I know, but people like that exist.

If Medics only get health for healing (or F/Ops only get ammo for supplying others) it falls over when there are no team-mates around that either need or can receive help. If the Medic is nearly dead and he’s with an Engie on full health, what does he do? The Engie’s completing the objective, enemies are bearing down, the Medic could keep him alive if he could keep himself alive, but he’s got to wait for the Engie to take damage first (and hope the enemy don’t kill him before the Engie just for that reason).

So we’ve added a mechanic that the game survived without for over a decade, that the chances of exploiting are greater than if it didn’t exist (i.e. greater than zero) and that might be counter-productive in certain situations. And for what? So people play the class the “proper” way? If people don’t want to play the class the proper way they’re not going to. Find a better server, play with friends, play with people you know, join a clan.

[Kendle]

… and it stops the game from being a collection of short-lived skirmishes while the rest of the team is on their way to die in the next short skirmish.

That happens because of the lack of wave respawn, the other thing you’re against, remember

[tokamak]

Unless you can precisely point out what the mechanic is I can’t precisely point out how it can be exploited.

-Medic loses self heal
-Medic gains +30% of his max heal upon healing a team-mate
-Medic gains +100% by reviving a team-mate.

all I can say is if it didn’t exist it couldn’t be

I can have nothing but contempt for this kind of attitude. It’s just such a lazy thing to say.

[warbie]

You must also be able to see how restrictive and situational that is. What if the medic needs health and there’s nobody around, or nobody that needs healing? What about those times that require charging through heavy fire while self healing? The only results I can see from these suggestions are reducing a medic’s options and making it a less interesting class to play. If rambo medics are the concern, reduce their ability to lone wolf it by restricting their ammo and forcing them to rely on other classes. This has already been done before, and without gimping their ability to fight, survive, or reduce the options open to them.

[tokamak]

I may be the only one here but I think limiting the ammo is the least interesting solution. It doesn’t directly address the self-healing and making them reliant on one particular class is even more situational.

You must also be able to see how restrictive and situational that is. What if the medic needs health and there’s nobody around, or nobody that needs healing?

You mean like every other class?

What about those times that require charging through heavy fire while self healing?

Solved by healing your team-mates and reviving them. Hence the 100% self-heal upon reviving.

[warbie]

You mean like every other class?

Not sure I get what you mean.

Solved by healing your team-mates and reviving them. Hence the 100% self-heal upon reviving.

Which is fine if you survive long enough to get to them.

However you cut it, these suggestions are reducing the options available to a medic. And really, what’s wrong with self healing? Let the medic in question make that call. It’s a dodgy path implementing mechanics that force a class to fulfil a role. What next - field ops who need to dish out ammo to get some themselves. Soldiers that can stack crit bonuses by killing people. Or even worse, running around with an area effect buff that increases team damage! I’m probably getting carried away, but all of this kind of stuff is horrible if you want a balanced fps.

[tokamak]

We’re seeing that medics don’t make the right call. The medic simply is the best class for increasing your k/d ratio. That is a problem because it hijacks the primary function of the assault class. People are selfish by nature, and those who are not will only welcome a mechanic that actively rewards them for doing their job.

Not sure I get what you mean.

If you’re running low on health and there’s nobody else around you then the medic plays exactly like any other class. The entire point of stopping the self-heal is to make the medic’s abilities only relevant in a team-context.

What next - field ops who need to dish out ammo to get some themselves…

Yes I already suggested that. In return we can then greatly increase the amount of ammo or health the fops and medic can dispense.

[warbie]

We’re seeing that medics don’t make the right call. The medic simply is the best class for increasing your k/d ratio. That is a problem because it hijacks the primary function of the assault class.

There will always be players who play selfishly. I still think you’re ignoring the obvious - which is the amount of ammo medics start with and how easy it is for them to get more - and making a B line for more exotic solutions that will have god knows what impact on the game.

People are selfish by nature, and those who are not will only welcome a mechanic that actively rewards them for doing their job.

Again, I disagree. The pleasure I get in playing a medic is trying to do what’s best for the team, be it getting dug in a healing away or getting stuck in on the front line. It would simply be a more boring, 1 dimensional class with these changes.

If you’re running low on health and there’s nobody else around you then the medic plays exactly like any other class. The entire point of stopping the self-heal is to make the medic’s abilities only relevant in a team-context.

It seems like you’re working this out on paper rather than having played DB and the games before it. In RTCW I was almost exclusively a medic. And not a rambo run around medic, but nearly always at the back, reviving and healing kind - the kind you want in DB. Much of doing that job well relied on hiding in a corner and self healing like crazy as when the medics went down the defence fell over. You know when you’re doing the job right when you run out of needles because you’ve kept yourself alive and in the right place when needed. It wouldn’t work having to look for someone to heal/revive.

Yes I already suggested that. In return we can then greatly increase the amount of ammo or health the fops and medic can dispense.

Then we’re going to have to agree to disagree I think - on nearly everything to do with DB it seems! This is a horrible idea. You’re pigeon holing how someone should play a class rather than giving them a choice based on the skills they have. It’s also not consistent, which I believe is one of the holy grails in game design. A med or ammo pack on the floor should be that for everyone. Suddenly I can’t pick up that ammo pack because I dropped it, but I can pick up that one. Or perhaps the field ops has ammo regen and never has to worry about it - again, taking away choice from the player. This isn’t so much an issue in DB, which rains ammo packs, but in RTCW you’d often be surrounded by teammates running out of ammo and have to balance that need with the need for air and artillery strikes (the shared energy bar being another interesting feature removed).

DB’s a pretty confused game at the moment. Everyone has full health regen, which is needed because medic’s are given the keys to run around the map from the second they spawn and more often than not do. There’s literally ammo everywhere, which almost single handedly makes the field ops pointless and enables the benny hill medics. And in the forums we have all all kinds of suggestions about how to fix this when we should be looking back to RTCW which had none of these problems. Simple, better, encouraged team play without forcing anything - why not build from that template?

[tokamak]

There will always be players who play selfishly.

And that´s why we need to make the support class the one that should be played in the least selfish fashion the least rewarding class to play with for selfish players. Selfish players should feel more drawn to different classes. It´s absolutely insane that the main support class is excelling all other classes in solo play.

[Kendle]

And in the forums we have all all kinds of suggestions about how to fix this when we should be looking back to RTCW which had none of these problems. Simple, better, encouraged team play without forcing anything - why not build from that template?

Amen.

When I was active daily on the Jolt RTCW forums, the biggest RTCW community in Europe (which I guess also made it the biggest in the World), I’m pretty sure the number of threads discussing giving the Medic this or that buff to encourage them to do their job was precisely zero, the exact same number as it happens as the number of threads even discussing “rambo” Medics.

Any solution that doesn’t begin with removing ammo drop is not a solution, it’s just treating a symptom, in isolation, rather than addressing the real problem.

As we can’t seem to agree on anything else yet did appear to have a consensus a few pages back on removing ammo drop, why don’t we focus on that. Ask SD to remove ammo drop, play test it for a week or 2, and see what happens?

[tokamak]

It helps but it only helps as symptom treatment. The ammo drops make the longevity of the medic only more apparent. Reducing the upper limit of longevity for all the classes but the medic is affected most because it is the only class that frequently gets to the point where ammo drops matter. In other words, all classes will be punished for living longer lives, it’s only that the medic has the best means to live a longer life. That’s why we need to change the medic, not the overall game.

[Kendle]

So you never played RTCW tokamak, and people like me and warbie who did are lying?