I think that’s fine but it also should mean that you need to work harder for it. Free lunches make all the classes sameish. So for example in the case of medic wanting to be a soldier, he would first need to boost his hp by the buffs gained through indirect healing before he’s able to get at that level.
Meet the Medic!
scre4m1
(scre4m.)
#43
To sum it up:
We want the medic to:
- focus more on healing
- not to be completely focused on healing ( unlike TF2)
- depend on other classes ( not as much as in TF2 )
- but not depend on one single class too much (FOps -> ammo), as he would neglect healing the eng/soli/sniper, but prefer to keep his ammo buddy alive
- have a powerful weapon
- not have the most powerful weapon of all
- have health regen ( like in TF2 ), so that he can supply his team with packs
- take health regen out of the game
Anything to add?
This list full of contradictions. If every player wants the medics role look differently we will never see a medic we all like to play.
So where are we? we dont know what we want the medic to look like.+ we want to make 4 classes so powerful that our still powerful medic is still not independent from the team.
So much cristisism no solution. I have one quite radical part-solution:
- Remove the FOps completely from this game ( i liked playing this class but its not as much fun in this game as it used to be in older games)
- Give Soldier a PF and AMMO PACKS ( BF3 style.omg)
- remove gib ammo
- Leave Health regen on all classes but the medic
BUT, here it comes: - Give medic 2 Syringes that can he can only inject himself to heal 50 %( remember the unused self-shock upgrade from ET:QW. we might as well use this old self shock with the defi, but syringes seem to be cooler :-P) He gets back one Syringe any time he revives a mate or a mates picks up his health pack. So medic can only heal if he plays together with mates and can still be that “rambo-medic” if he cooperates fine with his mates.
-Give the Engie a good weapon and a turret that does a well amount of damage to the EV
-Make EV some sort of supply crate ( ever played payload in TF2? remove the healing thing this cart gives you and make EV supply players with ammo only. On plant objective maps we need a different solution still)
-Sniper seems to be out of dicussion for now. Snipers are rather isolated in most games. So no big prob i hope. Give him an EMP and a sniper will be happy
This would create some reliance in between the classes, without making it much more complicated as it already is ( to new players)
Problems in my suggestion:
missing link between eng and soli
bad ammo support on “non-EV-maps”
tokamak
(tokamak)
#44
I like your summary but your solution seems overly complex. I´d prefer it if we found a way that doesn´t involve the removal of entire classes or extra tools.
Apples
(Apples)
#45
Remember also that this alpha is filled with pro player ramboing, I was wondering why I suck badly in db but when I see many of you have won tourney or stuffs like that, no wonder my poor skills cant match…
Before nerfing everything it could be cool to see a real “pub game” with pubers like me (yeah I spend my time reviving teammates), in comp the medic allways was a first choice for good shot, why penalise them?
INF3RN0
(INF3RN0)
#46
Well I already listed a lot of similar things in the other thread, but… again here are some possibilities I could see as working very well without crippling the medic.
In order of effectiveness by my perspective:
- Lower clip size (to prevent too aggressive of engagements outside of 1v2)
- Heal over time with packs (just for medic)
- Very low initial ammo
- Lower overall extra clip capacity
- Slight HP boost earn potential (10hp max) for helping teammates (makes more sense to earn it rather than have it granted immediately)
- Ammo dependency through heals/revives
Also I was thinking it would be interesting if medics could grant a bonus of 5-10hp (max) to another non-med player (until incap) via reducing their own max hp by that amount (possibly with a less overwhelming form of the “adrenaline syringe”). If they were to then be able to re-gain their max HP over-time via heals/revives or something of that nature, then their support role would be even more distinguished. This is probably just something for another day though.
warbie
(warbie)
#47
I’m in favour of suggestions 1 and 3, with a possible move to no. 4 after some testing 
Kendle
(Kendle)
#48
OK, quickly, because I’m not supposed to be here …
Once upon a time, there was this game called RTCW, which had a Medic, a Lt (F/Ops), an Engie and a Soldier. Public servers were a mix of all of them, there were no rewards, no XP, no buffs, no incentives, no punishments. Ammo came from the Lt (F/Ops), health from the Medic. The Engie blew stuff up, the Soldier blew people up! The Engie never had to go looking for a Lt to give him ammo, Medics followed Engies around as much as Lts to ensure the stuff that needed to get blown up got blown up. It all just worked and everybody played the game the right way, because it was the right thing to do.
Along comes ET, and introduces the XP system. For the first time ever Engies TK other Engies so they can get the XP for a plant. Engies blow up stuff that doesn’t need to be blown up cos they get points for it anyway. Medics don’t need F/Ops cos they get their ammo from dead bodies. The once harmonious nirvana that was RTCW is now full of selfish points whores. SD added a system to encourage team-work, and team-work went down the ****ter.
Since then SD have tried to refine the team-work encouraging system, and team-work continues to go downhill.
Here we are at DB and everyone and his dog has an opinion about how this or that buff will achieve this or that end.
I say scrap the ****ing lot and let’s get back to basics. No buffs, no XP, no phoney rewards, no incentives, play the class that heals team-mates cos you wanna heal team-mates. Play the class that blows **** up because you like blowing **** up. If you find yourself on a server where F/Ops don’t give ammo, call them selfish ****s and go look for a better server.
Play the game the right way because you want to play the game the right way, not because you’ve analysed the spreadsheet containing the health / damage / ammo / buffs / XP / HP matrix and decided a certain class used in a certain way is a “good thing”.
Yes, it’s Friday night, and I’ve had a whisky or 3
nailzor
(nailzor)
#50
For some reason I just can’t get on the same page with you for these last two, but I agree with #1-4 and noticed you put them in order of effectiveness. So in essence, I agree with your top 4 effective changes, just not the last two 
I know if I was in a game that Medics got perks for “helping” I’d be taking advantage of it each and every spawn if I played Med, just pinging teammates with pistol then healing them up for the perks!
scre4m1
(scre4m.)
#51
[QUOTE=Kendle;425966]
Yes, it’s Friday night, and I’ve had a whisky or 3 :)[/QUOTE]
explains some passages of the post u wrote.
it’s not all wrong ( big parts are even right tbh),
but we have 2013. keep that in mind. I doubt a shooter, which is aimed completeley backwards will be played today. Why would people that like to play “oldschool”-games want to play a “newschool”-game?!
But I have to admit, when people play for the objective and not for their stats /rewards, e-p***s/whatever games make way more fun and are mostly closer.
That’s why competition gaming is something I love.
But lets face the truth: You cannot make a successful game which will be only played in comp. Nor can you expect that people on pubs will change their attitude … We need pub games in this game and they want XP /rewards / e-P***s
just ignore this crap if you dont like it.
Valdez
(Valdez)
#52
Just wanted to say Kendle, that is the best post I have seen in along time. There is already a proven formula ppl lets not try to over complicate it (see rtcw). Also look to the scoreboard for another reason why people are currently playing the game like an ffa. scoreboard should not show k/d, it should be shown after the game if anything.
INF3RN0
(INF3RN0)
#53
[QUOTE=nailzor;425981]For some reason I just can’t get on the same page with you for these last two, but I agree with #1-4 and noticed you put them in order of effectiveness. So in essence, I agree with your top 4 effective changes, just not the last two
I know if I was in a game that Medics got perks for “helping” I’d be taking advantage of it each and every spawn if I played Med, just pinging teammates with pistol then healing them up for the perks![/QUOTE]
Yes they are the more experimental stuff so I wouldn’t necessarily want to try them unless it became necessary to test new things. The one flaw in that logic however is that since you would gain ammo from healing, you could set the reward to counteract tk/heals by making ammo rewards break even; thus accomplishing nothing. You could however gain that max 10hp that way, but I think the time wasted in spawn killing someone around 5 times wouldn’t be that advantageous. Some things I thought of already before posting the idea 
.
scre4m1
(scre4m.)
#55
True. It appears a little more complex.
It loses some problems though, as we would only have 4 classes to play.
I just did not get why we need a FOps in this game. FOps was for sure a key class in earlier titles, but actually one of the first questions I asked when I joined the alpha was: “why do I need a FOps in this game?” Mabye it’s beacause I only had a look into 3 Maps, but I did not feel the need for a FOps. Soldier seemed quite the same. Give this guy a rocketlauncher and it changes from a rather uselss class to an important part of the team.
The question is, does it make sense to push the FOps and keep him in the game, or is it better to split his tasks to different classes?
I know its an unpopular suggestion, as most people asked me: " why remove FOps? He has been here forever". But hey, if we dont question such things, we wont get a great game. But I havent seen sensible suggestions so far that would work fine imo.
I would really like to be convinced of the need of a FOps in DB. But as of now I am not.
Sure, the FOps is far from useless, but he seems to be dispensable.
nailzor
(nailzor)
#56
+1 to Kendle - this guy is my hero. Back to Basics and Keep it Simple state it best.
scre4m1
(scre4m.)
#58
So we only need that class to bring ammo.
Thats just like we needed a medic in TF2 - style for healing purposes only
The gap between other classes and fops is just too big right now
INF3RN0
(INF3RN0)
#59
@ Kendle I agree with everything your saying except there is one problem. This is f2p game and it is going to require a wider range of content to be successful, as well as requiring a lot of these mechanisms to function as a f2p game. That is the unfortunate reality we are faced with, otherwise I would be completely for what your saying.