Medic Suggestions

(Kendle) #141

The whole idea of a non-self-healing Medic is a nonsense. Why play a Medic, even with a decent gun, but with no self-heal, when you can play Solider, who also can’t heal but has a better gun, or a F/Ops, who can’t self-heal but has unlimited ammo?

Receiving health from healing others is also a nonsense, because that requires opportunity. If the opportunity doesn’t exist (there are no team-mates to heal within range), the ability is worthless.

Make 3 Medic load-outs, 2 of which can self-heal and 1 that can’t, and the 1 that can’t would never be played.

Of course the reason people have, in the past, played Medic in a combat role is precisely for the self-heal, but the solution isn’t to remove the self-heal, the solution is to limit the combat efficiency, and that goes right to the heart of the game.

Either DB follows the principle of everyone having equal combat efficiency and are only distinguished by class abilities (which can only really be achieved by everyone having the same gun), or combat efficiency is also a distinguishing factor. DB currently adheres to the latter, and dramatically changing it to adhere to the former would destroy any chance of the game succeeding as F2P. SD have based their entire business model for this game on having multiple load-outs. Multiple load-outs with essentially the same gun doesn’t work nearly as well as multiple load-outs with different guns.

If we can accept that occasionally a good player is going to get beaten by a lesser player just because the lesser player chose a better gun, then we can make a Medic that’s bad at killing people and good at healing them without having to take away self-heal. What’s more, it wouldn’t be hard to do because WE’RE ALREADY THERE (almost). Unlike it’s predecessors DB doesn’t have an OP rambo Medic. We already have a Medic with poorer combat efficiency than other classes. What we don’t have is a Medic that’s good at healing.

(tokamak) #142

Nobody here proposes a medic that can’t self heal. The discussion is about direct vs indirect self-heal.

So far there seems to be some sort of consensus in that a medic can either be a strong combat class without direct self-heal or a strong support class with self-heal.

This allows for two contrasting archetypes.

  • A combat medic with powerful offensive power who heals himself through healing others but no direct means of healing himself.
  • A support medic who has a near-infinite amount of healing/reviving resources, who has low offensive capacity but the means to keep himself up very easily through direct self-heal.

Most people on both sides seem to concur with this idea. I personally absolutely love it. Mainly because these medic types will greatly affect the entire team’s playstyle. A team with two support medics will play entirely different than a team with two combat medics. This is the kind of tactical depth DB currently lacks. At the same time, having such extremely specialistic classes in place will allow SD to further deepen out all the other classes as well.

Everything only becomes an issue when people put their foot in the sand and say they want both combat power and direct self-heal. By now we know that this combination will mostly be used to boost the killing sprees. It won’t do anything that the above mentioned specialists can’t already do better.

And no, a direct self-healing mediocre combat medic, or one with low ammo is NOT a compromise, it’s the worst character ever. It’s exactly this half-assed combination that his holding back the overall class balance in DB. Remove this guy, put back in the two new guys and suddenly a vast range of new and powerful abilities for all classes will be opened up.

(INF3RN0) #143

It’s like… I can’t explain direct and indirect self heal enough. If people play medic just for self heal anyway, then they are doing something wrong. Reviving and healing teammates turns tides whether you can self heal or not. Direct self healing can exist, but at a penalty. Indirect self heal can exist, but with benefits for fraggers who still want to be able to revive/heal teammates. What works for one person vs another is entirely self preference, but it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work… maybe that’s the problem.

(Humate) #144

The whole idea of a non-self-healing Medic is a nonsense. Why play a Medic, even with a decent gun, but with no self-heal, when you can play Solider, who also can’t heal but has a better gun, or a F/Ops, who can’t self-heal but has unlimited ammo?

Aggressive survivability vs Defensive survivability.
One frags to heal and revive, the other heals himself to revive others.
And youre correct the fops has unlimited ammo, therefore the combat medic needs a slightly better weapon.

(INF3RN0) #145

Somethings you guys are overlooking…

-FOPS ammo self supply will not give him advantage during a fight. It becomes useful over a longer life span, however this comes down to the average player life and the particular weapon’s ammo cap.

-Soldier has a movement penalty and no team support role.

-A medic without direct self heal can still; revive, heal, frag. He simply can’t sustain solo better than most other classes (the only difference). He can however still self heal, but via means of supporting his team. Regardless it would be at no disadvantage comparatively to the soldier or FOPS in terms of combat capability.

Asking for a superior weapon on an indirectly self healing medic simply means that you aren’t very interested in the support role, so why play medic at all then??? Instead play soldier… a combat medic would still be a medic after all- it would just fulfill its role to the strengths of an aim based player.

(Hundopercent) #146

[QUOTE=tokamak;456581]Nobody here proposes a medic that can’t self heal. The discussion is about direct vs indirect self-heal.

So far there seems to be some sort of consensus in that a medic can either be a strong combat class without direct self-heal or a strong support class with self-heal.

This allows for two contrasting archetypes.

  • A combat medic with powerful offensive power who heals himself through healing others but no direct means of healing himself.
  • A support medic who has a near-infinite amount of healing/reviving resources, who has low offensive capacity but the means to keep himself up very easily through direct self-heal.

Most people on both sides seem to concur with this idea. I personally absolutely love it. Mainly because these medic types will greatly affect the entire team’s playstyle. A team with two support medics will play entirely different than a team with two combat medics. This is the kind of tactical depth DB currently lacks. At the same time, having such extremely specialistic classes in place will allow SD to further deepen out all the other classes as well.

Everything only becomes an issue when people put their foot in the sand and say they want both combat power and direct self-heal. By now we know that this combination will mostly be used to boost the killing sprees. It won’t do anything that the above mentioned specialists can’t already do better.

And no, a direct self-healing mediocre combat medic, or one with low ammo is NOT a compromise, it’s the worst character ever. It’s exactly this half-assed combination that his holding back the overall class balance in DB. Remove this guy, put back in the two new guys and suddenly a vast range of new and powerful abilities for all classes will be opened up.[/QUOTE]

Making self heal work only if another person is present is worthless. No other class has that strict requirement and no class should. Medic is rarely played in pub right now and he still has a small self heal, remove it, and I don’t see a reason to play the class. Even with a buffed revive shield would I change my mind. You have to be alive to revive and sitting in a corner with your paddles out doesn’t seem right in this style of FPS.

(tokamak) #147

No other class has such a potent self-enhancing ability. The combination of combat potency and direct self-heal has proven to be impossible to uphold without contrived antics like limiting ammo.

Medic is rarely played in pub right now and he still has a small self heal, remove it, and I don’t see a reason to play the class.

I find it hard to believe you’ve truly entertained the idea of the two different medic specialisms, they’re both VERY different than the shoddy mess that the current medic is. Please see them as two entirely new characters rather than a continuation of what currently exist.

(blacktyger) #148

After days on pubs playing only medic i can say that shield thing is most annoying. Rewive during fight is almost 100% dead medic - dead medic have nothing to do with teamplay : (

(Kendle) #149

This combat Medic you’re describing is a phantom class that would never be played. It’s a F/Ops with packs it can only give to other people, the “fraggers” aren’t going to play it, they’ll play the version that can give itself packs. The “healers” aren’t going to play it because it’s strengh, combat ability, isn’t why they play the game.

By all means have various types of Medic, and by all means give them less powerful guns, but they must all have self-heal otherwise they’re not Medics and no-one who wants to play Medic for the right reasons will use it. The “fraggers” won’t play it either because every other class is still better equipped for combat.

By all means petition SD to make this psuedo Medic, but it’ll be waste of a load-out and meanwhile the real Medic waits for a viable revive.

(INF3RN0) #150

I’d play it… I mean FOPS is currently the “fragger” class and that’s only for the gun it has. If I had a FOPS gun and could revive and heal my mates I’d play it all the time even if I could only heal with regen and by supporting teammates; still frags as good as a FOPS. I really think the impact of medpacks/revives > ammo packs/airstrike, but maybe I missed something. The only difference is that as a combat medic you would more often shoot first, revive/heal after. I really don’t follow the logic here…

Maybe it’s because I have a psuedo frag/support play style idk, but I thought that was the best way to play.

(Kendle) #151

OK, that’s 1. Petition SD to make it, that doesn’t affect the purpose of this thread, which in case anyone still remembers is to improve revive so Medics can carry out their most powerful function without simply trading a life for a life, as is the case currently.

(INF3RN0) #152

I already support the improved medic mechanics overall. I think SD already knows it needs attention.

If you can explain to me why someone would consistently choose a FOPS over a combat medic for example though, I am keen to understand the reasoning.

I’d like to see similar variations of play styles applied to each class also. No need to have each class function in a single mold as long as it can be balanced.

(Raviolay) #153

For me I would like medic 1 to stay the same with only a few changes:

The headshots are 5 like all over classes.
The SMG gets a reduction in amount of movement bloom.
The out of combat HOT is twice as fast for a medic so long and you are stationary.

(Hundopercent) #154

[QUOTE=tokamak;456633]No other class has such a potent self-enhancing ability. The combination of combat potency and direct self-heal has proven to be impossible to uphold without contrived antics like limiting ammo.

I find it hard to believe you’ve truly entertained the idea of the two different medic specialisms, they’re both VERY different than the shoddy mess that the current medic is. Please see them as two entirely new characters rather than a continuation of what currently exist.[/QUOTE]

This is Dirty Bomb not Shrub Mod or W:ET. Let me know when you start playing so I can start relating with your concerns.

I understand exactly what you’re saying. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. No self heal, no one will play it. You want to make the self heal some gimmick that requires another player, guess what? I still doubt anyone will play it. You want to reduce his combat efficiency in trade with stronger heals and a revive shield great. Some people will play that but you’re still neglecting the other players that do not want to play the medic that way.

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;456648]I’d play it… I mean FOPS is currently the “fragger” class and that’s only for the gun it has. If I had a FOPS gun and could revive and heal my mates I’d play it all the time even if I could only heal with regen and by supporting teammates; still frags as good as a FOPS. I really think the impact of medpacks/revives > ammo packs/airstrike, but maybe I missed something. The only difference is that as a combat medic you would more often shoot first, revive/heal after. I really don’t follow the logic here…

Maybe it’s because I have a psuedo frag/support play style idk, but I thought that was the best way to play.[/QUOTE]

Sweet, so now that 2 people will play the worst loadout medic what about the other thousands?

This argument is exhausting and it’s not going any where. Can we please move on about fixing revive?

(INF3RN0) #155

The only thing that is exhausting is the fact that I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why it would be useless. I’d rather have a dependable fragging weapon than mediocre immediate self-healing and a situational weapon. Obviously if someone is weaker in the aim department they will depend on self healing more and probably wouldn’t play such a load out, but considering a class like FOPS gets by just fine I don’t expect anything different with a medic that has situational self healing. It still has the tools for the team, but of course it would require more consistent weapon dependency. Unless we’re arguing that all medic load outs should be built around attrition style play… or that they only work with immediate self healing; which is a bit ridiculous when every other class somehow manages without it.

The only actual variables that prevent the medic from successfully reviving/healing teammates are those mechanics themselves. Self healing doesn’t save a medic running in for a revive and then trading lives afterwards. The only good/logical thing about instantaneous self healing is that it allows you to maintain full health so that you can potentially keep supporting, but of course your also using those packs on yourself 50% of the time. There’s much better ways to maintain supportive momentum… basically a medic that self heals and has a weaker weapon in return should appeal to the defensive player, the player that goes for risky revives often, or the player that wants to avoid straight up duels. In the end it comes down to play style and nothing more when predicting how ‘useful’ a class will be. It’s not like the mine camping shotgun engineers consider the Recon with the sniper ‘useful’ either.

(Hundopercent) #156

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;456671]The only thing that is exhausting is the fact that I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why it would be useless. I’d rather have a dependable fragging weapon than mediocre immediate self-healing and a situational weapon. Obviously if someone is weaker in the aim department they will depend on self healing more and probably wouldn’t play such a load out, but considering a class like FOPS gets by just fine I don’t expect anything different with a medic that has situational self healing. It still has the tools for the team, but of course it would require more consistent weapon dependency. Unless we’re arguing that all medic load outs should be built around attrition style play… or that they only work with immediate self healing; which is a bit ridiculous when every other class somehow manages without it.

The only actual variables that prevent the medic from successfully reviving/healing teammates are those mechanics themselves. Self healing doesn’t save a medic running in for a revive and then trading lives afterwards. The only good/logical thing about instantaneous self healing is that it allows you to maintain full health so that you can potentially keep supporting, but of course your also using those packs on yourself 50% of the time. There’s much better ways to maintain supportive momentum… basically a medic that self heals and has a weaker weapon in return should appeal to the defensive player, the player that goes for risky revives often, or the player that wants to avoid straight up duels. In the end it comes down to play style and nothing more when predicting how ‘useful’ a class will be. It’s not like the mine camping shotgun engineers consider the Recon with the sniper ‘useful’ either.[/QUOTE]

/yawn. Read pages 1 - 8 for your explanation.

(prophett) #157

I would be surprised and extremely disappointed if SD nerfed the medic in this way, and I’m a career field op who only plays support medic 10% of the time.

I can appreciate that you are looking for new ideas to fix an old problem that isn’t really as relevant in Dirty Domb and realign the medic to it’s “intended” role, but I don’t think these ideas are good in theory, so we shouldn’t waste time & effort on practicing them.

Try to play ET or QW and don’t give yourself any med packs (or “stroy”). You are practically useless after a revive or (or maybe two) during a big rush because you are dead. Your ability to keep yourself alive heightens the chance of being able to keep your team alive.

A medic who can heal himself is more effective than a medic who cannot heal himself. There is no arguing that, although I am sure some of you will try…

People have been saying the same thing all thread. Any of the new players have an opinion on this?

Any of the new players have an opinion on this? People have been saying the same thing all thread.

(INF3RN0) #158

I’m not asking about what purpose immediate direct self heal serves, I already know what it does. And unfortunately in a balanced world it comes at the cost of a weak weapon. I want to know why a medic without direct self heal would be too unappealing to be played when it has a superior weapon and can restore hp to teammates without interruption. Comparatively to FOPS what would make it less appealing? Are ammo packs that much more valuable than what I proposed?? Still waiting…

So then tell me this folks, how do you propose a medic with equal weaponry to the FOPS for example while still having immediate self heal since you couldn’t ever play the class without it? Unless we’re just giving up on that ever being a possibility…

(Evil-Doer) #159

I will give my two sense, without even bothering looking at pages 1-8. Because quite frankly it’s probably a bunch of back an fourth babble about nothing.

The topic is “Medic Suggestions” - here are just a couple suggestions in my opinion (that keep in mind I won’t ever even look back to see quotes from this or even look back to see who agrees or disagrees, b/c I don’t care. So don’t waste your time.)

  1. The entire idea of healing overtime is still very odd feeling, not saying I personally can’t get use to it…but what I feel it does is slow down game play significantly. (For obvious reasons I think). I always liked the idea of, “give a med pack - med pack gives X amount of health back per pack”.

  2. Medic Self Regen - Honestly, I don’t like random self regen, it seems kinda silly to me. You ask why? Well I don’t know, can’t really give you a good reason, but can we answer the question “WHY have it?” - if the first answer you say is “Because then medics will give me med packs.” - well then hate to tell you that medic is the retard an now we made a mechanic to help the retards. I’ve always lived the simplest philosophy - you can’t fix stupid…so quit creating mechanics because players can’t handle fundamentals.

  3. I love medic - I’ve always loved the idea of supporting players an working as a team an pride myself in being a team player. I can definitely kill s*** with the medic gun and you should be able to. I know there are masters of the classes out there that think people complain about classes just because those players must suck an just don’t have the s**** figured out yet. But, I’ve been really trying to come to grips with the oddity that exists with playing medic. Since we have self-regen an packs that have you regen…and since we have medics regening slower Listen we are trying to make a massive push and I find myself saying constantly “Give me thirty seconds, I’m trying to get some health so I can travel with you.” - how silly does that sound…maybe it doesn’t? Maybe that’s where we are heading? To me, if you maintained a good health pack count being a good medic an you wanna all fill up on health quick as a team an move on you should be able to. But, what this intentionally does is stops everyone dead in their tracks an makes you have to wait or you lose the next fight. (for obvious reasons). So my suggestion is to go back to four packs an drop the regen nonsense. Why? Because I don’t believe anyone that is playing a medic how he should be - an that’s feeding his team mates health should throw his three med packs to a team mate but since he took a little damage that pack just went to complete waste. It just seems very silly. Nobody has to agree, I don’t like it.

Just some thoughts, whether I got any across or not - I needed to put a little something out there. An per usual it’s just thoughts spewed to the board so sorry for all you literates that get all pissy cuz it’s not all grammatical an s***.

muah xoxo

(Kendle) #160

In a word, Yes. Who’s going to play the Medic with the better gun if it means sacrificing self-heal? Why would that person NOT play any other class, that already has a better gun AND something else useful to THEM? I have little faith in human nature, the genuinely good guys, like you Inferno, are few and very far between. I honestly believe a F/Ops with packs that only others can use (which is what this combat Medic would be) would get less than 10% play-time compared to regular F/Ops (who can chew his own packs) or regular Medic (made up statistic for illustration purposes only, don’t bite me!).

I am giving up that ever being a possibility. A Medic with self-heal and a gun as good as F/Ops is not viable, for all the reasons we’ve already stated. Self-heal must come at the cost of weaker weaponry, otherwise they’d be no reason to NOT play that class and we’d be back in ET.

The thing is this is all a meaningless discussion to solve a problem (OP rambo Medic) that doesn’t exist in DB, and in practical, game-play terms would only cause more problems than it solves (i.e. it would create some and solve none).