You misunderstood. I’m saying that the current healing abilities of the medic are limited because if boosted it would also improve the self-healing and thus the combat power of the medic. They’re tied and therefore you can’t buff or nerf one without buffing or nerfing the other.
If you’re the only one being hurt while the rest is unscathed then you truly are playing the medic wrong.
Besides, there’s nothing wrong with some regen system for a medic. As long as he doesn’t get to heal himself at his own discretion everything else is fine. I think this is the fifth time I stressed that I’m only against DIRECT self-heal.
Maybe I should also explain what I personally favor with class synergy too…
I want a set of classes with diverse tools/abilities, which differ primarily with what they bring to the team. What they offer however should not always be a requirement, but rather a choice. This means you don’t always need to have every class in play, but you see equal worth in all of them anyway. More so in comp I really like to see it when teams use completely different strategies that can be just as effective as another, rather than one shared strategy simply because it is measurably best. I think if you can make players go “well what classes should we run?” then your doing a great thing. Classes ought to be continuous decisions that you make based off of your player’s skill sets and the situations you encounter in a set moment.
Brink is the best example of forced team comps. When a class becomes a requirement, you’re running that class simply because the game forces you to and nothing more. In the ideal balanced environment class loadouts won’t really matter in the aim game, however each class achieves their kills in a different manner and also can help make achieving those kills more successful by working together- and not just giving another class a super buff with the use key.
That also means a team without medics should be viable as well. Their tactics need to be completely unorthodox in order to get anywhere but if the medic itself becomes so powerful in his healing abilities then naturally the other classes should become so powerful in their abilities that they can make up for the lack of a medic.
in ETQW formido friday matches we had a match with 8 opressors violatoring the first Salvage objective so the one constructor could get planting. Same thing happened for the second objective and then on the third objective we had 8 infiltrators in the salvage shaft flyer droning the crap out of the GDF while a lone agressor blew up the final objective.
It was a short and brutal match and if someone did pick a technician at some point then he certainly didn’t play a major role.
Now that’s evidence of a solid game balance design. No necessities and highly rewarding the player’s creativity. Especially if you put the above tactic against all the other times where medics did carry the team to success.
The medic creates the most interesting situations. Do I revive now, or shoot first, or back away and try something else - like take obj and run away? And all this in split seconds multiple times in a game. Same for the enemy, do I shoot the medic or do I gib? I believe decisions around the medic should support these patterns.
There is only the engineer/soldier giving that extra, defuse/plant or shoot? while its not as intriguing as the medic.
For me the medic should have a bit higher speed for a short time, maybe let him give himself some shock - lol, but it definitely should have bad after effect, like exhaustion - so that you have to recover from the rush. On the other side, if advanced movement is implemented - then maybe the medic can slide in? … and will have to stupidly stand up again - that would make it already… So you can run in - revive, shoot and protect that guy.
And the guy which got revived, either he can shoot instantly on revive, or he needs some protection. Maybe let the player himself decide to stand up, or keep laying while using a gun after the revive. While some are requesting the revive shield, tbh its one of the most annoying features. I believe it drove many people away from the game in ET. If you are a mediocre player, and play engineer, and there comes this super duper rambo medic - reviving the guy you shoot, hiding behind thin air, while the other one stands up - and can’t be shot in the face - its just hilarious. While yes I am one of those medics using that.
Speaking of gibs, I miss them … lol.
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455250]If you were a SD dev it might matter. Overall it just seemed like the one thing you and Kendle were hell bent on was keeping the self heal mechanic. I wanted variances of the medic, where in self heal could exist but at the cost of weaker weaponry. I’ve already said I am mostly satisfied with the current medic, but I’d enjoy some more variations towards stronger weaponry and stronger self packing (BUT not all in one package). Kendle appears to be content with that, but you are not right? Just to be clear on what your actually disagreeing with from what I’ve said.
[U]BTW I did offer some initial ideas on how to have a medic without self heal and still offer the medic some incentive to revive and heal other players though… (remember this medic would have a much better gun than the SMG)
-regen some health from heals/revives
-longer player spawn shields
-faster movement with paddles/med packs out
-increased action time for revives[/U]
All I could come up with in the moment, but I’ll gladly keep adding to it as the brain chugs along.[/QUOTE]
If you want different loadouts to have forms of the medic that’s fine. I’m just letting you know now, which ever medic can heal himself, revive, and heal his teammates effectively will be the most one played across the board. That’s what the medic needs to be an effective class. As long as one loadout has those 3 and a reliable weapon (i.e. not a shotgun) I suppose I won’t care. But I still do not understand how both you and Toka believe a medic will be useful without self heal. Well, I can understand Toka because he doesn’t play the game and probably isn’t a competitive player. You on the other hand have more experience and should know better.
It was. The problem was that if you died the team that lived was at a huge advantage (usually defense) because their entire team was buffed while the offensive team was not.
With that stance then Lts should not be able to give themselves ammo as that also promotes selfish play. It can’t be selfish for one and not the other. Again, people really think they are playing Shrub Mod 2 or WET 2 and need to get out of that mentality. The medics in this game are not that strong. This is why the people making suggestions need to log into the game and put some time in before making balancing suggestions on something they are not at all familiar with.
[QUOTE=tokamak;455380]It´s quite simple.
Two sides in this debate.
[U]One side has the overall role division of classes in mind and see that a rather powerful ability is not used for the intended purposes, disallowing the rest of the class´s abilities to be expanded for the fear of further exploitation.
And another side that is merely entrenched, fighting for the only playstyle they like and invested in during the alpha.[/U]
YES if all that stands in between the medic being gimped and turning into a super solo class is the mere availability of ammo then that is quite clearly and unquestionably a REALLY BAD THING.[/QUOTE]
I disagree.
One side believes they are playing a game that they aren’t. They are afraid of a class that has been a super class in the past but currently is not. This fear worries them and they want to force that class into a role that they think is the correct way of playing.
The other side has experienced playing said class in multiple games both pub and competitively. Understands the mechanics of the class and knows in the past the class has worked just fine and was not OP. Though strong, it required another team mate in order to reach that level of potency. Which is perfectly fine because you have to apply teamwork in order to get there. This side does not want to see a class force molded into a role that only a certain style of player will want to play, instead multiple styles can be applied and all be effective just like every…other…class.
Sorry if I or we come off like that. We are selfish in a way that we want a game to succeed competitively so we can continue to play it. I don’t believe there is only 1 way to do something. I do however feel there are certain ways you don’t do things. Forcing people to play a certain way because of mechanics is something I am strongly against and always will be against. Freedom is what most players want when they play a game and if you strip that I believe they will lose interest.
It’s rare to make everyone happy or at least some what agree on something, but it isn’t impossible. It takes a lot of creativity and work to get there. Constantly, throwing your opinion in someones face, after they have debated it in depth, clearly state to move on and find another way to resolve the issue isn’t exactly helping.
I know I can be opinionated but I am trying to be more open even if it involves implementing things I am against. Sadly, the idea of a medic not being able to heal himself does not sound good in anyway for me. There would have to be dramatic changes to the heal, revive, combat, and survivability of a medic and even then I don’t think it would work right with the way the game currently plays.
[QUOTE=tokamak;455384]They’re allowed to have that mindset. There’s nothing wrong with defending your favourite style of play. I just think it’s close minded and clearly not in the interest of the overall balance of the game.
The medic’s self heal is limiting the medic’s healing power and the reduced medic healing power is in turn limiting the ways the other classes can be expanded.[/QUOTE]
Just so you know, I actually played an Lt/Sniper in RtCW and not a medic. I am also currently playing an Lt/Sniper because I don’t like the way the medic works. The revive is too weak, the heal is not good enough, and the gun is trash on anything over CQC - Close/Mid range. Medium range and up every other class rocks the medic. The only use I see for a medic is to chain revive so the other team runs out of ammo with the bad hit reg and spread.
What do you know about balance? I don’t think I have ever seen you in a server or playing ever.
Unlikely. They didn’t like players standing on med packs dueling around corners. I believe that’s why they added the HoT effect. It wasn’t strictly the self heal. I also believe they want medics healing and reviving to be an out of combat thing which, for this style of game, I think isn’t a good approach. I could be wrong here but since we haven’t received a post on how they want/expect the classes, combat, and maps to be played (I could be wrong on this too, I didn’t search) we will never know until the game is releas
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455396]I was a comp player and still have the mindset. The difference is that I am highly critical of even my favorite games. There’s always room for improvement and change even if it forces me to change my play style, especially when it broadens the overall scheme. All I care about is balance, freedom of choice, and dynamic opportunities.
Self packing can make the medic more “interesting”, which is exactly why I don’t mind it- however weapon gimping is the most realistic downside to the mechanic. In the past self packing was most often a means of winning a duel or allowing the medic to constantly push forward because damage taken went unhindered. Just because it could sometimes be used in a good way, it did not change the fact that it created more problems than it solved. Still when self-packing is present with balanced consequences, it almost becomes a requirement to be consistently successful. If you offer players variations of that play style then you can cater to each kind of player. Otherwise if people want a medic with all the best stuff, every other class is going to need a similar mechanism. If that were to happen though you would more than likely hear people complain.
To me it’s nonsense that a medic has to be the best class in the game. It might to be the most consistent team support class, however as far as combat it should be fairly equal to the rest. Supportive roles should only serve to give momentum to the team overall, and not allow one class to gain measurable strength advantage. If a support mechanic can be used to increase personal combat effectiveness, then expect consequences. There’s all to much complaining about how certain classes are too strong in combat, yet the medic should be strongest in combat and support… why is that so necessary? It definitely was not the key to what made these games good… not at all.[/QUOTE]
Why should support classes only be able to support and not be effective by other means? Even in MMO’s and MOBA’s support classes can be played offensively while still supporting their team and they’re not considered OP.
The medic isn’t exactly walking into a room, picking up health packs, and raging 3 people at once. Running away and then doing it again. This is something you experienced in a different game where ammo dropped from bodies, and medics could walk over packs while fighting and heal themselves.
[QUOTE=tokamak;455400]You misunderstood. I’m saying that the current healing abilities of the medic are limited because if boosted it would also improve the self-healing and thus the combat power of the medic. They’re tied and therefore you can’t buff or nerf one without buffing or nerfing the other.
If you’re the only one being hurt while the rest is unscathed then you truly are playing the medic wrong.
Besides, there’s nothing wrong with some regen system for a medic. As long as he doesn’t get to heal himself at his own discretion everything else is fine. I think this is the fifth time I stressed that I’m only against DIRECT self-heal.[/QUOTE]
If you played the game you would know that they aren’t tied and medics do have different levels of healing right now for themselves and their team so it is possible.
I disagree. With the way maps are and the fact that you can get attacked from 15 different directions it’s entirely possible for a medic to be targetted and killed without the rest of the team getting hit. If you played you would know that.
How would you incorporate the regen while in a heavy team fight? How long would it take to heal up? How would the medic stay alive long enough to get his job done?
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455404]Maybe I should also explain what I personally favor with class synergy too…
I want a set of classes with diverse tools/abilities, which differ primarily with what they bring to the team. What they offer however should not always be a requirement, but rather a choice. This means you don’t always need to have every class in play, but you see equal worth in all of them anyway. More so in comp I really like to see it when teams use completely different strategies that can be just as effective as another, rather than one shared strategy simply because it is measurably best. I think if you can make players go “well what classes should we run?” then your doing a great thing. Classes ought to be continuous decisions that you make based off of your player’s skill sets and the situations you encounter in a set moment.
Brink is the best example of forced team comps. When a class becomes a requirement, you’re running that class simply because the game forces you to and nothing more. In the ideal balanced environment class loadouts won’t really matter in the aim game, however each class achieves their kills in a different manner and also can help make achieving those kills more successful by working together- and not just giving another class a super buff with the use key.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this, at the same time, in pretty much every game I ever played. If someone can heal it’s a need. If you remove the heal from medic you also remove the class from the table.
[QUOTE=ailmanki;455449]The medic creates the most interesting situations. Do I revive now, or shoot first, or back away and try something else - like take obj and run away? And all this in split seconds multiple times in a game. Same for the enemy, do I shoot the medic or do I gib? I believe decisions around the medic should support these patterns.
There is only the engineer/soldier giving that extra, defuse/plant or shoot? while its not as intriguing as the medic.
For me the medic should have a bit higher speed for a short time, maybe let him give himself some shock - lol, but it definitely should have bad after effect, like exhaustion - so that you have to recover from the rush. On the other side, if advanced movement is implemented - then maybe the medic can slide in? … and will have to stupidly stand up again - that would make it already… So you can run in - revive, shoot and protect that guy.
And the guy which got revived, either he can shoot instantly on revive, or he needs some protection. Maybe let the player himself decide to stand up, or keep laying while using a gun after the revive. While some are requesting the revive shield, tbh its one of the most annoying features. I believe it drove many people away from the game in ET. If you are a mediocre player, and play engineer, and there comes this super duper rambo medic - reviving the guy you shoot, hiding behind thin air, while the other one stands up - and can’t be shot in the face - its just hilarious. While yes I am one of those medics using that.
Speaking of gibs, I miss them … lol.[/QUOTE]
Though these ideas sound great on paper, when implemented it generally becomes a very chunky, awkward process. Look at the sliding in Brink as an example. Some people may hate revive shields, at the same time, there is no point reviving if you know you’re both going to die. It makes it an unattractive option instead of your go to option as a medic. I should want to run in and revive someone not sit back and just duel because I know the end result is both of us dying.
Now that all of that is done. I have a simple question, how does everyone feel about an additional active ability for classes? I hate the idea but it might be the missing link to giving everyone what they want.
Example:
Medic Loadout:
SMG
DE
Needle
Packs
Active (could be bound to Q): Regenerates health at an accelerated level. 10s CD.
Packs would no longer heal the medic though he can still heal himself every 10 seconds.
The concerns I have with this approach is:
The game loses that FPS sort of feel and it turns into a battle of CDs vs teamwork and elbow rage.
Players have to learn multiple CDs, what they do, how long they last, how long until it’s up again.
It becomes more difficult to balance loadouts especially when more and more loadouts are released.
The positives:
CDs add a new level of strategy to the game.
May make it easier to balance certain loadouts and classes.
Makes loadouts more attractive for people to purchase
Less homogenized loadouts.
This is just an idea so don’t crush me for it. I like the level of strategy it could bring. I hate the gimmickyness it brings as well.
The reason why I agree with Toka on this subject (prob one of the few times it will ever happen lol) is because as a competitive player it was my goal to exploit the best means to win. The problem I had with the self supportive medic was that its combat role became more appealing than its supportive role, and the only other classes being played were forced by design. I liked the idea of self-packing, however I didn’t want it to imbalance the combat role of the medic. I abused the fact that I could use my supportive abilities on myself to gain advantage over other classes, and because no other class had the same extent of abilities as the medic it eventually boiled down to a linear meta-game in my eyes. It was super effective at fragging and supporting, but simply because it was so effective at fragging. What I value most of all is my ability to make decisions. If one class is simply stronger than the rest, I will always build my strategy around it. It seems “balanced” when everyone does the same thing, however I want everything to feel so equal that I would be confident in trying any combination of things knowing that every class had a useful role (outside of fragging and objs) and that it might work out if things panned out perfectly. When you have 3 medics, 1 obj class, and 1 ammo resupply class that sticks out to me. The only reason the ammo class is there is because he maintains the advantage the medic has and the only reason the obj class is there is because he has no choice. So yea… as a comp player or not, I think the game would be much more interesting where you’re not building the meta game around a single class.
I’m glad you used the example of MOBAs. Having played quite a lot of LoL during beta to release you could definitely play classes outside of their roles. This made the game a lot more interesting and varied, however when you did this you were very inefficient in the opposite direction. Example; building AD on a support champ will still have support abilities, yet they are extremely weak. It’s that same type of balance that I want to see in medic load outs that simply let’s you pick your play style knowing the ups/downs of your decision. If there’s an extreme on each end of the spectrum, the mid-range load out may be the most appealing. In the end it’s entirely a decision by a player as to what their strengths are or what situation they are in. Maybe you don’t want to play a stronger support medic when your teammates can’t gain from it, etc. Having the options to choose from though would be really nice.
The Brink buffs is something I didn’t like. It was what I called “simulated teamwork” where in you were always holding down the F key because buffs were a requirement. The medpack is something much different though, which I accept as more “teamwork oriented”. Tools/abilities that only propel momentum rather than a requirement to produce any momentum at all are much more appealing to me. It’s a thin line sometimes, but it’s the dynamism and thought involved in the action that makes it feel good.
Well yes, if you only read half of my post then fdops should also not receive ammo, but if you read the other half I said it should be replaced with health regen / give the medic more hp. (so the equivalent would be giving the fdops ammo regen / more ammo, kinda sounds interesting)
Any chance we can summarise where we’re at so we don’t have another several pages of repeated arguments?
I’ve posted my reasons why Medic should retain self-heal, though exactly how that’s implemented doesn’t matter so much (i.e. whether it’s via packs or a buffed, out of combat, regen).
Like Inferno I’m keen for the Medic NOT to regain the ability to run over a stash of pre-dropped packs for an instant health boost mid-combat, which is the biggest method by which his abilities were abused.
However I agree with Strych when he points out that the Medic most people seem to be opposed to doesn’t actually exist in DB, rendering most of the objections moot.
In DB, when there are enough people on server to get a game, I see plenty of Soldiers, Snipers, F/Ops and Engies. I remember going on Bio (the server of choice for competitively minded ET players back in the day) and finding 12 Medics -v- 12 Medics. DB is a world away from that, a world away from the OP pack-whore ET Medic, so let’s just have a reality check here and stop arguing against something that doesn’t exist.
What does need to be addressed, and is the reason why I started this thread, is revive. Medics are not reviving as much as they should, IMO. How do we make it so they do? Nerfing them to force the “right” people to play the class isn’t the answer, partly because they’re not OP so don’t need nerfing, and also because nerfing self-heal doesn’t buff revive.
What might be useful could be :-
longer, tougher, revive shield
faster de-fibs (as in selecting them)
faster movement speed with de-fibs out
larger “hit-box” for de-fibs
That’s what we should be talking about, not arguing against a situation that used to exist in previous games but doesn’t in DB.
Summary: Medic isn’t as powerful a healer as he could be because the option to self-heal is taken into account when balancing this class. Take the self-heal out and the healing can be be increased tremendously, in turn all the other special abilities of the other classes can be greatly enhanced pushing them further into their roles. This moves us away from classes being just their gun and some lame ability into incredibly powerful specialists that will allow for enormous tactical diversity.
Self-heal is not just about the medic. Self-heal is the culprit behind the narrow way in which all classes are currently balanced.
I don’t mind if there are solo classes. I welcome them. But at least those classes should be solo by design and not by an unintended way of playing the one class that ought to be specialised in support.
My ultimate motive is to expand and broaden the spectrum in which the classes are currently positioned. More diversity, higher specialism and less mediocrity.
The current strategy with the medic is to take your opponent by surprise from a corner. If you don’t kill them immediately you have a pack waiting next to you and you regain some portion of HP; possibly regenerating back to full. It is still possible to use the packs during a fight, just more difficult. Otherwise it’s hard to run head on into a soldier for ex. Self packing medic is able to level the field with self packing attrition pretty decently.
Yep this is fine by me as an overall improvement for all medics.
As to future medic loadouts though… I think the current SMG medic will set the middle ground fairly well after these suggested changes. For two alt future medic loadouts on the opposite spectrum I’d like to see the uninterrupted health pack return. The ability to heal teammates during fights made for an interesting feature, so if it was balanced better this time I’d like to see it on some loadouts.
Support Medic;
-Weaker SMG (maybe a shotgun also)
-Self heal
-Higher HP pack capacity
-Uninterrupted heal (base value)
-Packs heal more
Combat Medic;
-FOPS style rifle
-No self heal
-Auto regen, hp gained from healing/reviving teammates
-Uninterrupted heal
-maybe give this medic the revive gun?
Combat Medic;
-FOPS style rifle
-No self heal
-Auto regen, hp gained from healing/reviving teammates
-Uninterrupted heal
-maybe give this medic the revive gun?
Fine with that. Would probably need the weapon to be the most effective assault rifle in the game though.
It would need to be head and shoulders better (than healing medic’s SMG) to compensate for the removal of self heal and decent enough to consider it over fops.
[QUOTE=Humate;455620]Fine with that. Would probably need the weapon to be the most effective assault rifle in the game though.
It would need to be head and shoulders better (than healing medic’s SMG) to compensate for the removal of self heal and decent enough to consider it over fops. :)[/QUOTE]
Why exactly do you think it would need to be a stronger weapon than the FOPs? Wouldn’t you choose to play the combat medic over FOPs for the healing/revive role still?
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;455606]
Support Medic;
-Weaker SMG (maybe a shotgun also)
-Self heal
-Higher HP pack capacity
-Uninterrupted heal (base value)
-Packs heal more
Combat Medic;
-FOPS style rifle
-No self heal
-Auto regen, hp gained from healing/reviving teammates
-Uninterrupted heal
-maybe give this medic the revive gun?[/QUOTE]
Yeah these two loadouts surfaced earlier in a discussion and it seems like the perfect compromise in this discussion.
It would need to be stronger than the fops, in order to mitigate the differential of not having self healing.
Having the same weapon as the fops, with the ability to heal others isnt enough of a carrot imo.
Sure, and don’t forget the heal bonuses gained from reviving and healing others. The problem isn’t being able to gain health as a whole. The problem is being able to heal yourself when and wherever you want it, that is when the healing will be used to boost your own bodycount rather than that of your teammates.
