Martyrdom? /Really?/

(Szakalot) #41

if you are trying to melee naders, you are asking for it!

(Kalbuth) #42

What could be done is that “death by martyrdome do not gib you”, at least. I’ve been killed by martyrdom more by my stupidity than anything else, granted, by I also can’t count the number of times it happened at the end of a group engagement with a nader finishing himself in the middle of the ennemies during the engagement and setting it off. You usually react, but you’re already hurt and therefore get that little enough dmg to down you, if not gib you.

You lose the ability to be revived when using it, I don’t think it should ever warrant a gib on your victim either.

(t3hsquirr3l) #43

Just wanted to stop by and say that, after a week of playing, martyr poses little risk to my person now. When I do die to martyr it’s entirely my fault.

I think the defending team needs that ability, since as mentioned it can provide a delay option if used well and even take out some enemies if you’re lucky. It’s not that much of a delay even, but every half-second counts.

I’ve never seen anyone even try to charge in and use martyr offensively, or maybe they have and just die immediately much too far away to be of use.

(TndY) #44

How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
getting the kill, not because you didn’t remember to keep your distance,
but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?

The fight is over whether you rolled’em or have only 1hp, you’ve won.
Frags based on skill are welcomed and these random circumstance kills are making me drowsy.

What’s the counter to this SD?
Run when a nader comes around the corner in a closed area?,
which would be a perfect time for that zz grenade launcher to chase you.

(Szakalot) #45

[quote=“TndY;21586”]How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
getting the kill, not because you didn’t remember to keep your distance,
but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?

The fight is over whether you rolled’em or have only 1hp, you’ve won.
Frags based on skill are welcomed and these random circumstance kills are making me drowsy.

What’s the counter to this SD?
Run when a nader comes around the corner in a closed area?,
which would be a perfect time for that zz grenade launcher to chase you.[/quote]

you are never ‘too close’ to nader. No matter how close you were, there is always enough time to escape

(Zenity) #46

[quote=“TndY;21586”]How many times have you won a 1 vs 1 cqc with a nader and he detonates
getting the kill, not because you didn’t remember to keep your distance,
but because your too close when getting the kill or just low hp and slightly nearby?
[/quote]

Well, let me count… oh right, that would be zero.

Nah seriously I’ve died a couple of times or so, but that was because I was injured AND tried to backpedal instead of long jumping away. Just a bit too slow (or got stuck). Still, in a single game the number is zero almost every time. As Nader myself I get a decent number of kills with Martyrdom, but the vast majority of them is from players going in for the knife gib. Sorry, no sympathy for that. :tongue:

Most of the time I actually try to hold out on exploding the grenade now, because it’s too easy to gib myself pointlessly. It’s a minor delay and a last resort when you are about to tap out anyway, but that’s it really.

(Lumi) #47

For me too it has been some time since this thread was hot and I must admit that now I keep my distance from Naders and I don’t have that frustrated martyrdom death anymore.

Nevertheless I got a chance to play Nader and even after the last update, there is no other merc with whom I manage as many kills. It’s ridiculously easy. Instead of requiring to chew off all of the enemy’s HP by bullets alone I often can weaken the enemy’s health before finishing him or her off with my smg. Easy peasy.

I still believe that the GL does too much damage, it should be reduced.

Also, the fact that I get the better of two worlds keeps bugging me: In fact, when I shoot far with the lac-40s I either get an explosion if I hit a person but a nice ricochet if it hits a hard surface. To me, it should be either or. Right now it is ilogically the best option according to each situation. Unfair.

(TndY) #48

Boxed into a corner unfortunately.

(TndY) #49

[quote=“Zenity;21731”]
Well, let me count… oh right, that would be zero.

Nah seriously I’ve died a couple of times or so, but that was because I was injured AND tried to backpedal instead of long jumping away. Just a bit too slow (or got stuck). Still, in a single game the number is zero almost every time. As Nader myself I get a decent number of kills with Martyrdom, but the vast majority of them is from players going in for the knife gib. Sorry, no sympathy for that. :tongue:

Most of the time I actually try to hold out on exploding the grenade now, because it’s too easy to gib myself pointlessly. It’s a minor delay and a last resort when you are about to tap out anyway, but that’s it really.[/quote]

It’s not ubiquitous I guess.

(Zenity) #50

[quote=“Lumi;21894”]For me too it has been some time since this thread was hot and I must admit that now I keep my distance from Naders and I don’t have that frustrated martyrdom death anymore.

Nevertheless I got a chance to play Nader and even after the last update, there is no other merc with whom I manage as many kills. It’s ridiculously easy. Instead of requiring to chew off all of the enemy’s HP by bullets alone I often can weaken the enemy’s health before finishing him or her off with my smg. Easy peasy.

I still believe that the GL does too much damage, it should be reduced.

Also, the fact that I get the better of two worlds keeps bugging me: In fact, when I shoot far with the lac-40s I either get an explosion if I hit a person but a nice ricochet if it hits a hard surface. To me, it should be either or. Right now it is ilogically the best option according to each situation. Unfair.[/quote]

I’d like to see Nader become an actually viable alternative to Fragger or Skyhammer in competitive play (i.e. the slayer role), and until that happens, I think that all talk of Nader being too powerful in terms of killing is pointless.

She feels good to me now on publics, but let’s see if this translates to increased popularity in the tournament tomorrow (32 teams, so somebody is bound to try it out at least).

(distinquishedSandwich) #51

Press F to kill the guy

(Lumi) #52

First of all, not everyone keeps F bound to knifing… Secondly, it used to be enough to cancel martyrdom but apparently it was a bug. And most experienced users still manage to drop martyrdom before you can gib them, so you still get blown to pieces…

(worthyStew) #53

My opinion about this is that it is a poor mechanic designed to reward people for losing. Doesn’t belong in PvP enviroment. You died, you shouldn’t get a kill for being worse than your opponent.

This is what they did to a simular mechanic in another game I played when this very issue came up, increase the detonation time by 1-2 seconds. It’s already an atomic bomb, no need to be instant detonated.

(Lumi) #54

@worthyStew I agree that people shouldn’t get rewarded for dying, but martyrdom doesn’t mean a kill anymore, because people learned to stay away from Naders. So it either is a kill through enemy stupidity or through careful detonation of martyrdom. Hence it might be an annoyance now and then, but martyrdom is not the problem it used to be anymore, unless you’re a newbie, but then again, those have far worse problems right now, like for example to understand that this game isn’t about KD or that doing the tutorial for once before jumping into a multiplayer FPS would be the best course of action…

(GregHouseMD) #55

Martyrdom doesn’t reward Nader for dying. Martyrdom punishes enemies for letting Nader get into their little healing station bunker, and not clearing out. It’s only ever your own fault if you die to Martyrdom.

(worthyStew) #56

@GregHouseMD You’re speaking theoretically. Yes theoretically it is your fault if you die to martyrdom. However practically, in fights, with jumping shooting, explosions left and right, tight corners, tight rooms, group fights etc? No, it’s a random thing then. If the Nader is in your face and dies, BOOM you’re dead. Punished for winning.

(Ardez1) #57

Or are you rewarded for winning? After fighting your hp is probably low. Nader is a good friend an is like, follow me, I have a way we can get HP back. And your like, sounds like a good idea. I know we were fighting before, but I am going to stay nearby and watch what happens. Moving away would be a bad idea if you have a plan to help us get HP.

Nader E > Boom > Revive with full HP and some ammo to replace what you lost in the fight.

Thanks Nader! I appreciate you caring about me as an enemy enough to give me a hand when I need it!

Point is, it is all about perspective. Yes there are arguments both ways, but what you need to look at is the question, “Is it fair?”.

In my mind yes. You know for a fact who can use the ability. It is within your control to avoid it very often. It gibs Nader so she gives up any chance to revive. It doesn’t always gib you, so you can be revived. And finally, her only other ability is a fairly mediocre grenade launcher. If you took away her martyrdom, what would you replace it with? She already is NOT used in high level competitive because better options do exist. She is only useful in pubs because the number of players in the match.

Not to mention she will be absolutely useless in Execution because of the autogib.

(GregHouseMD) #58

If you’re not paying attention to what’s going on around you, Martyrdom is the least of your worries. If Nader is in your face, you should see her dying, and you should run away. Unless you’re Rhino, you’ll make it. If you don’t see her dying, or didn’t even know she was there, you need to pay better attention. Difficult? Yes. Also, worthwhile.

Of course, your mistake was getting into that mess of a fight in the first place. It’s almost never good to be clustered up like that, frankly. A single grenade will do far more harm than Nader dying near you.

Nader’s mistake was running in. Nader should stay outside and lob grenades in. Do far more good that way. Rewarded for staying alive!

In the real world ( i.e. not the world of convenient hypotheticals ), Nader is far more likely to unload grenades, run in, shoot people, get shot, and do nothing except maybe take out a healing station. Which is still really good; enemies just got flushed out of a good position, leaving them exposed to the rest of your team. Unless you’re playing against absolute beginners, however, you’re rarely going to take the enemy team with you.

(worthyStew) #59

@GregHouseMD You’re full of it, you can’t control your surroundings as you describe it. And as luck (?) would have it. I main Rhino. :open_mouth:
Today I had another of those games, holding off a section of the map with medic and lord n behold. Nader bum rushes in, instadeath, instaexplosion kills me and medic allah ackbar style. BS mechanic, no defense for it. Bads getting rewarded for being bad.

(Ardez1) #60

[quote=“worthyStew;24291”]@GregHouseMD You’re full of it, you can’t control your surroundings as you describe it. And as luck (?) would have it. I main Rhino. :open_mouth:
Today I had another of those games, holding off a section of the map with medic and lord n behold. Nader bum rushes in, instadeath, instaexplosion kills me and medic allah ackbar style. BS mechanic, no defense for it. Bads getting rewarded for being bad.[/quote]

You shouldn’t be able to hold everything with a single medic and rhino. Part of the game is overcoming what the enemy team throws at you. Jump the hurdle :slight_smile: