Martyrdom? /Really?/

(Ruvan) #21

Two problems I perceive with Nader’s martyrdom:

  1. It’s literally for free and pretty powerful. If you completely removed it then Nader is still going to be perfectly viable compared to the post-nerf Fragger. If Nader is to keep this powerful ability it needs to come at a cost.

  2. It promotes Nader getting random silly kills that are not necessarily deserved AND the enemy can’t necessarily be reasonably expected to avoid. For example, suicide rushing an opponent. Simple fact is that Nader can probably rush someone faster than they can turn to run, assuming that the opponent even realizes what Nader’s intentions are. Another example: someone else kills a Nader near you.

Edit: I thought of a third point. Nader completely fucks over those Mercs with shotguns that are meant to be even more close range orientated than Nader.

I’m not saying remove it completely, however, I do think it needs to be made more niche than it currently is. It SHOULD be a disincentive to CQC nader, a disincentive to finish her via melee and an obstacle for the enemy team to avoid while she is downed. It SHOULD NOT be regularly killing careful opponents and SHOULD NOT be viable for suicide grenading.

Essentially I’m saying make the fuse time longer and reduce the OHK/extreme damage radius of the grenade.

(Lumi) #22

[quote=“Ruvan;18773”]

Essentially I’m saying make the fuse time longer and reduce the OHK/extreme damage radius of the grenade. [/quote]

I agree with the range of grenades being too extreme overall, especially with the martyrdom grenade.

Is there some decrease in strength the further away you are from the blast? If so then not progressive enough imp.

(Szakalot) #23

[quote=“Ruvan;18773”]Two problems I perceive with Nader’s martyrdom:

  1. It’s literally for free and pretty powerful. If you completely removed it then Nader is still going to be perfectly viable compared to the post-nerf Fragger. If Nader is to keep this powerful ability it needs to come at a cost. [/quote]

there is a cost - nader gets gibbed.

Also, you should always try to get some distance at this extreme close-combat situations. I dont see how you cant move away from a downed nader in the 0.9 seconds you have to escape: assuming nader tries to blow themselves up asap.

(watsyurdeal) #24

Agreed, the thing with Nader and her Martyrdom, and the reason why it’s balanced compared to CoD, is in CoD anyone can have it. You never knew who had the ability or didn’t. In Dirty Bomb, you know it’s Nader, you know she’s light and easier to kill than most, so rush her hard if she’s using the launcher and get her downed, then get out once she detonates.

It’s not hard at all, and to me, it just sounds like bitching when people complain about something that you really do have a fair shot against.

And not aiming at you Sza, it’s aimed at people who have been complaining since yesterday basically.

(Gi.Am) #25

Martyrdom is fine as it is right now.

The downside to it is that you give up a possible revive especially if you smash that button the instant you die.
You can see quite alot of naders that initiate martyrdom and then get revived (which kills them since the nade is allready hot / would be even funnier with ff-on).
It’s also easy to bait Nader into giving up the revive just walk toward her wait for the nade and back off, she finishes herself no need for a knife or some bullets.

Her nades do have damage falloff. I’d would estimate a 1-1.5 meter radius in which martyrdom will kill most mercs (fragger has to hug Nader to die tho) after that it’s mild damage for maybe 0.5 meters and that’s it. So all in all 2 Meters is all it takes to be save.

The fuse time is fine aswell it is long enough for all mercs to get away if the act upon it instantly. Sure if you hesitate because you forgot it’s a nader you die (as you should).
But any longer and rhino with his grandmother can just pass over it and not get hit.

(capriciousParsely) #26

1 second is enough time to sprint out of it even if she dies on top of you. If you go around a corner and get martyrdome’d it just like going around the corner and stepping on a mine/getting headshot.

(GregHouseMD) #27

With the changes to martyrdom, it feels a lot better. It’s easier to avoid now, but it’s also more of a threat. Which is not to say that more people will die to it, but rather that a downed Nader can do more to slow down a push. Instead of the ~.5 seconds it used to take to run in and gib Nader, you have to slow down and shoot her, and then wait nearly a second for the grenade to blow. It’s a difference of seconds, but those are seconds your team can spend healing up, reviving, and so on.

(Ruvan) #28

[quote=“Szakalot;18796”][quote=“Ruvan;18773”]Two problems I perceive with Nader’s martyrdom:

  1. It’s literally for free and pretty powerful. If you completely removed it then Nader is still going to be perfectly viable compared to the post-nerf Fragger. If Nader is to keep this powerful ability it needs to come at a cost. [/quote]

there is a cost - nader gets gibbed.

Also, you should always try to get some distance at this extreme close-combat situations. I dont see how you cant move away from a downed nader in the 0.9 seconds you have to escape: assuming nader tries to blow themselves up asap.[/quote]

No, that’s a cost to using the ability, not a cost to having the ability.

(Szakalot) #29

[quote=“Ruvan;18975”][quote=“Szakalot;18796”][quote=“Ruvan;18773”]Two problems I perceive with Nader’s martyrdom:

  1. It’s literally for free and pretty powerful. If you completely removed it then Nader is still going to be perfectly viable compared to the post-nerf Fragger. If Nader is to keep this powerful ability it needs to come at a cost. [/quote]

there is a cost - nader gets gibbed.

Also, you should always try to get some distance at this extreme close-combat situations. I dont see how you cant move away from a downed nader in the 0.9 seconds you have to escape: assuming nader tries to blow themselves up asap.[/quote]

No, that’s a cost to using the ability, not a cost to having the ability.[/quote]

yup sure. There is no cost to having an ability, what would that even mean? Does fragger having grenade cost him anything? Or skyhammers airstrike - does it ‘cost’ him anything to ‘have’ airstrike?

(Lumi) #30

I think what Ruvan might be getting at is that Nader “always” has access to it. If martyrdom grenade would be a Fragger ability then you could envision it as martyrdom grenade only be available if Fraggers grenades were not in cooldown. Otherwise it would be kinda: no grenades -> no martyrdom. Would also force you to keep a grenade in your pocket in order to use martyrdom. Right now, it’s just a bonus, doesn’t require any tactic to have it available…

(watsyurdeal) #31

But the problem with that logic is that it’s not consistent

Does the revive have any tactic for to be available? Not used, available. Big difference

There’s no tactic for ANY of the mercs to have something available, they come with tools, and you use them to accomplish goals. that simple.

(GregHouseMD) #32

The cost of Nader having the ability is only having access to SMGs, and HP and mobility on par with the fire support mercs.

Nobody plays Nader solely for Martyrdom. Even so, taking Martyrdom would mean giving her something in return.

(Szakalot) #33

Also, nader’s martyrdom is ‘always’ available, provided that the nader isnt gibbed. Gib the nader -> ability is not available.

It can also only be used once per spawn.

(Lumi) #34

[quote=“majesticClue;19031”]

There’s no tactic for ANY of the mercs to have something available, they come with tools, and you use them to accomplish goals. that simple.[/quote]

You’re wrong. Every merc needs to chose if and when they want their ability to be availbale. Of course it always starts as available, but once you use it, be it once or more (in the case where you can use it multiple times until depletion) then you have to wait until you get the ability back.

It is very common for Aura or skyhammer to have to wait before being able to use their ability again.

Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.

(watsyurdeal) #35

[quote=“satisfyingCove;19154”]
Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.[/quote]

You kill yourself and deny a revive, and it only works people who don’t react quick enough.

So the solution is to not be so close to a nader when she gets downed, saying that’s not possible is completely false. It’s your fault if you’re not paying attention.

(Lumi) #36

[quote=“majesticClue;19250”][quote=“satisfyingCove;19154”]
Now if martyrdom should be the same or not, that is another debate. But imo, if martyrdom would have a cooldown, it would reduce the amount of suicide rush happening. Just saying.[/quote]

You kill yourself and deny a revive, and it only works people who don’t react quick enough.

So the solution is to not be so close to a nader when she gets downed, saying that’s not possible is completely false. It’s your fault if you’re not paying attention.[/quote]

Now you completely replied next to my point… I never said what you assumed I did. But to answer your opinion: you’re right you’re an idiot if you let a nader die next to you and that would be awesome if all the maps would be a green open field. But unfortunately, deaths around corners or others are very common and that’s where nader’s martyrdom is succesful…

Anyway, I believe now that Nader won’t change. Splash damage just wants to attrack all the call of duty newbies with the mechanics that we all used to hate then. So assuming that the other merc with the catana is anything like a kniferunner with commando they’re just missing someone who can still shoot when not gibbed and they’ll have last stand! Oh and let’s not forget the legendary akimbo G18, we do need a merc with insane rate of fire and spread to cover the entire screen with a rain of bullets. Then the entire noob starter pack will be complete!

(GregHouseMD) #37

What, another Nader discussion getting blown ridiculously out of proportion?

I’m still waiting for those end of round screenshots showing Nader completely dominating the enemy team.

(Thai-San) #38

“Martyrdom can no-longer be cancelled by gibbing Nader before it detonates”

-Fletcher Update

Damn…

(GregHouseMD) #39

Well, at least it’s not utterly useless anymore. It was literally impossible to use it against good players prior to that change.

(honorableNemesis) #40

Martyrdom should at least have a second to arm before she’s allowed to execute it while down. Some loadouts heavily favor melee and having the instant grenade pop out makes it entirely too easy to punish someone who’s gotten a melee kill.

Also, it might be nice if, being an ability, martyrdom had its own cooldown to prevent everyone from spamming it — conversely, having it on its own cooldown would also make it so that a nader who’s just gotten downed could lure in someone going for a finisher and then pop the nade on them when they’re least expecting it.