Lean

(acQu) #41

Yop, can’t really theorycraft more. It just won’t slow down gameplay imo, since it is a micro-level decision the player takes. If you are still in doubt play W:ET, it was really nothing which slowed the gameplay down.

(acQu) #42

Yeah true. I think that would be a good argument for lean as well, since you have a contrary aspect complementing the feel of the game aka you can catch players off guard if they are forest-gumping around the maps; it is more like a polar thing to do, which is good imo. If done well, nothing is encouraged and it erases itself out and both playstyles can coexist. It will be almost like you are given a choice in this game to play like you want :slight_smile: I certainly favour that :slight_smile:

(Bloodbite) #43

I like leaning too, but i can see why it wont happen here. I think I’ll get my lean fix when Arma 3 comes out.

It will make it interesting at any rate. I leaned a lot in W:ET and ETQW, time to challenge those old habits.

(nexgen) #44

I think lean would encourage camping at the wrong times and places. Camping at objectives is called defending. Camping on random corners popping out and firing seems ok for another game, not DB. Plenty of spots to hide already to get the jump on the enemy. :smiley:

(kilL_888) #45

yea, but i am a player other players interact with. if i hide behind a corner, they cannot interact with me. and now imagine half my team hiding behind a corner and half the opposite team. i’m not saying it definetely slows down gameplay but potentially, yes, it would.

it would encourage an overall more defensive style of play and i don’t think that’s fitting into this game.

(pulley) #46

lol kill XD Lean will not slow down the game. In RtCW no public player even used it because the game was to fast for camping, you couldn’t shoot while leaning and the animation was to slow. It really only was used by defenders how tried to spot enemy attack way and run back to his mates… But as i said before. In DB we have Mines and Heartbeat Sensors don’t add to much stuff which is only good for defenders…

(Patriotqube) #47

Lean please +100

dont listen to ppl saying it will slow game down, they have no clue on what they say :slight_smile:

the fastest FPS of them All, WET has lean, and that hasnt slowed that game down.
Its just another ad-on that will make this game great.

(Volcano) #48

ET wasn’t the fastest game at all

(pulley) #49

true! +10bla

(kilL_888) #50

if there is a mechanic that encourages you to hide behind a corner and your whole team does in fact use this mechanic, and also the opposite team, of course it slows down the gameplay. when people hide behind corners, they don’t run around. this would potentially even turn a fast paced first person shooter into a cover based tactical shooter.

and, generally speaking, if there is a mechanic that is not even used by a majority of players, why have it in the first place?

(acQu) #51

Yeah, but it won’t :slight_smile: Excluding this only because you think in theory it will slow down the gameplay and encourage camping without any actual testing data (from players not influenced by this discussion xD), then i think this is wrong and it boils down to gamedesign basically, which can be test-driven or theory-driven or a little bit of both (currently DB to me looks mainly theory-driven, which can be seen that very little ventures are taken and very little stuff is actually tested and tried out, which could be due to time and resource constraints, i know, but you gotta do a venture and test your theories from time to time, even if they have prooven wrong on paper). So if you do not like a feature i would prefer you just say i don’t like it and not try to lay around a theory around your dislike xD

(tokamak) #52

It’s not going to change the average encounter in the game. Lean, like prone and also ironsights will only make fringe-encounters more distinctive. Right now a fight behind corners is very similar to running into each other because players can’t control how much they expose.

That’s why I’m a strong proponent of lean, prone and (stronger) IS. It gives more tools to players who recognise the uncommon scenarios where these attributes become important. This means that a player leaning, proning or sighting in the right place at the right time is able to make an enormous difference. This won’t slow down the core game because the situations in which such stances are useful are not common enough.

Right now in DB it’s still very hard to out-think the opponents because you lack the tools to do so. Too often fights are settled in duels. This keeps the gameplay very repetitive.

(acQu) #53

In addition and i really think this is one of the major problems of how you imagine a game to turn out when it is entitled “fast-paced”. If you really played W:ET or ET:QW (even Quake 3/live i would argue), you would understand that the term “fast-paced” was coming from a different corner compared to what you would say is fast-paced about DB currently. DB is fast-paced in terms of frequency of engagements and time to die. I would argue that W:ET in this regard was not much like this. Sure, spawn camping could always happen, which automatically increases the frequency of deaths.

To put it very very simple to illustrate what i mean when i say that there are seemingly different definitions and concepts about fast-paced and it sound amazingly simple and almost demystifies that term. One is simply an underlying movement system which potentially makes you move around faster in maps (if you like) and the other fast-paced definition can be described like this: imagine you are slow as a snail and get placed in a level with no walls, just a cube, to duel another player (also slow as a snail). I could now go ahead and say: well, these players engage alot, since they spawn, shoot, die, so this must be a fast-paced game, but you really see, since the players are slow as ****, you really can’t say this game is fast paced from the perspective of movement aka the first example.

I really don’t know how to explain better, sry :slight_smile: But this is what i feel, there is a different understanding to what we think about when we say: this game is fast-paced. Fast paced to me is not about frequency of firefights, this gets repetetive very quick. To me it is more like the old W:ET style (in the tradition of id software games, with a proper movement system). That is mainly where i take my understanding from :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #54

A high frequency of quickly resolved conflicts is indeed fast paced, that’s DB.

ETQW was still fast paced but the fights lasted substantially longer. Players were more able to exert control over their positions which meant that besiegers had to quickly adapt, and run their arse off in order to flank. However, you rarely saw two teams locked down in stationary positions like you would see in R6 (which is also fun but not in objective mode), in ETQW that just didn’t happen.

Two different definitions of pace indeed. And boy do I prefer the latter. Area control needs to become more prevalent and prone lean and better IS really contribute a lot to that.

(acQu) #55

I also like the latter, don’t get me wrong, but it feels wrong currently in DB. Maybe if they widen the maps more, create predictable choke points, this can be avoided, but then there is still the crappy movement system not fitting in my eyes. I think about it this way: first fast-pace me my movement, then fast-pace me the frequency of firefights and foremost, give me a chance to adjust this (the frequency of firefights) to my rate as much as possible, do not impose this. The former is more like an imposement in this regard, yes, but i think a good one + in addition you can still decide to move slow :slight_smile:

(kilL_888) #56

i prefer using some arguments or at least examples to back my opinions. but if you dislike this, here you go… :slight_smile:

i dislike leaning.

i also dislike proning.

not a fan of ironsights either.

(potty200) #57

Massive ET player here and I have to say I hate the idea being used in DB. Big HELL NO from me! :slight_smile:

(Breo) #58

Lean, prone, slide are positions that make your hitbox smaller (at the right angle). I can imagine it can slow down the game (ttk) but I’m not sure about this it depends how players will use it (camp/infight) and if your able to shoot or not.

(Protekt1) #59

I usually like lean in games… but I don’t think it would fit in this game. But if there is a small lean I don’t think it would hurt it too much. Maybe a lean but no ability to shoot? Could be useful to just peak corners and try to be a bit more stealthy in doing that.

(tokamak) #60

I think TTK should be based on the average encounter. IE running into another player at medium range. Average accuracy yadda yadda.

Prone, lean and long range are more fringe encounters, on top of that, they often are one-sided as well. One sided fights still have the ordinary TTK because one player will have the advantage. It’s rarely a leaning player vs another leaning player, or a proner vs a proner. Only ISer will frequently battle with other ISers.