[quote=“Merciless;159963”][quote=“Jostabeere;159962”]
If you watch any p/review, that’s how they basically work. Critics say if they would recommend stuff or not based on their experience. But why am I telling you that, my opinion matters jack-shit anyway because I don’t have dank 30K kills with a merc.[/quote]
Finally. You’re gettin’ it.[/quote]
So, have you 30K kills each with Fletcher, Nader, Fragger, Aura and Proxy?
[quote=“Jostabeere;159966”][quote=“Merciless;159963”][quote=“Jostabeere;159962”]
If you watch any p/review, that’s how they basically work. Critics say if they would recommend stuff or not based on their experience. But why am I telling you that, my opinion matters jack-shit anyway because I don’t have dank 30K kills with a merc.[/quote]
Finally. You’re gettin’ it.[/quote]
So, have you 30K kills each with Fletcher, Nader, Fragger, Aura and Proxy?[/quote]
I do not. But I have played them and did just as good… if not better than I do with Vassili because they are quite easy to learn and do well with. Low risk, high reward mercs. But I’m not talking about me wanting them to be nerfed… I’m talking about everyone having the ability to hipfire and jumpshoot when I’m not allowed to. Like I asked @Matuno who did not respond to me, explain me this.
If this really was a needed change… Then explain to me why they made this change in the past to then revert it not too long after. Keep in mind, Vassili, during that time, could instagib on headshots. What made it okay… now? What makes it suddenly acceptable? Vassili being more OP? No… how could he be? He can’t instagib anymore. So, try explaining that.
Here’s what I think. The players who did not approve of this change back then were high competitive players. Tournament players. High end. Their opinion had weight and forced SD to reverse the change. Now because of repeated Splash Damage failures, they are gone to bigger and better things which gave SD, more specifically, Smooth and Exedore, the perfect opportunity to insert a personal change that they wanted to add into the game because they found it “annoying and frustrating”. They don’t really care anymore because the relevant players are gone now. Does that justify the change? No. It’s dumb as fuck.
[quote=“Jostabeere;159966”][quote=“Merciless;159963”][quote=“Jostabeere;159962”]
If you watch any p/review, that’s how they basically work. Critics say if they would recommend stuff or not based on their experience. But why am I telling you that, my opinion matters jack-shit anyway because I don’t have dank 30K kills with a merc.[/quote]
Finally. You’re gettin’ it.[/quote]
So, have you 30K kills each with Fletcher, Nader, Fragger, Aura and Proxy?[/quote]
@Merciless is voicing his opinions about this nerf from the side of the fence of who this nerf happened to and whose gameplay it affects most- those that use Vassili. That’s his point. A lot of people are concerned with nerfing aspects of the game into oblivion simply because they either don’t care, or it doesn’t affect them. The last survey that SD wanted to collect community data on, any questions about changes to Vassili were met with a large margin of people selecting “I don’t care/doesn’t affect me.”
People who play Vassili are a minority. People who play Vassili enough to actually be good with him are even more so. But that doesn’t mean their opinions, which give them a keen insight into the merc, are irrelevant. They are very much relevant. We want to voice them, because there’s not many Vassili-mainers out there to speak up that haven’t left the game yet to Overwatch or something. Sorry if that burns your biscuits.
If you’re looking to say that Merciless doesn’t understand what it’s like to be on the other side of the scope, he does, but I certainly do. I play every single game I’ve ever played in DB with him and have been against him more than I’ve been on his team due to matchmaking. My main isn’t even Vassili, but he is always in my loadout. But I know more than well enough what it’s like to be any other merc on the other team against a sniper as good as Merciless. Nader, Proxy, Phoenix mostly, Arty… I know how to counter a good sniper just as I know what it’s like to be a sniper. So we’re not coming to the table QQing in bias because you disagree with us. We have our information provided from both sides of the spectrum.
TBH the only reason why Vassili isn’t useful is because he has to sit so far away from the team and he doesn’t have a very strong special action. This game is very much focused on movement and applying pressure to set and defend C4. Defense has a lot of obstacles obscuring their view of their defensible areas, and the maps are very corridor and cover based. There are very few open areas, and of those open spaces, most all of them are narrow hallways or have a lot of alternative paths. This is a contrast to TF2 maps, BF4 maps, CS maps, where there are large open areas that a single sniper can cover all entrances and even the point.
The game is not designed to support Vassili, jumpshots or not. Any good sniper can plink jumping mercs, without having to jump himself. Just look at any pro TF2 sniper. They don’t jumpfire at all, and they can headshot ROCKET/STICKY JUMPING PLAYERS. WITH LAG. LIKE WHAT?
Vassili can’t repair. He can’t arm. He can’t defuse. He can’t be near medics for reviving. He can’t reliably cover areas. He can’t destroy the EV. He can’t stop players hiding behind the EV. He can’t give his team any refillables. He’s just NOT designed for this game, as a class, whether or not he can jump and fire.
@MidnightButterSweats then what exactly are assaults doing in db? I would rather trust on a sniper to hold down an area than on an assault (which also are slow at arming, defusing, can’t give teammates ammo/hp and suck at destroying the ev).
Not to mention that you can shoot people in their feet when they’re behind the ev and most vassili’s will be close enough to medics for a revive except if you have a vassili that’s in the back of the map going for 1 pick each spawn wave.
It’s funny cause it seems like as we advance in the “progression” of Dirty Bomb we’re actually taking mercenaries away more then we’re adding them. At first, Phantom didn’t have his place in the game. Now apparently snipers don’t.
http://rs990.pbsrc.com/albums/af26/Mamma4ever/Gifs%20for%20Blogging/funny/4r9a54.gif~c200
Splash Damage are a group of people that have great ideas for games. But in the development department? Gahd dayum the struggle. It’s a mess.
[/quote]
Look at the reality of things
Vasilli was strong as fuck because of the insta gib on headshot, that gets removed, now he’s useless in comp compared to other mercs.
Jump Shotting gets removed, and we’ve heard both valid arguments for and against it, Snipers in this game are difficult to balance, Phantom was and isn’t. Splash literally could have had Cloak like TF2, and had a guy with SMGs and a wicked melee and everything would have been fine.
But Vasilli, because of he map design and what he excels at he’s either going to be fight fire with fire, or outright pointless.
Don’t feed the trolls. 
But at this point I’m starting to believe they’re feeding each other.
[quote=“kibloy;160001”]Don’t feed the trolls.
But at this point I’m starting to believe they’re feeding each other.[/quote]
As people have mentioned before, I don’t think anyone has ever offered this idea to nerf jumpshot sniping and give it RNG but when it came in the patch, people started defending that idea like they have long agreed with it and have been suggesting it for the longest time. Some may be trolls I’m guessing and it’s really bugging me.
[quote=“Jostabeere;159579”][quote=“Sploosh;159567”]There are plenty of counters to a jumping Vassili. Some examples in particular are Arty’s airstrike or Kira’s laser. Both of which can easily kill or stop a Vassili from taking that same position again. Although good Vassilis can hold down an area, you can just as easily take him out with your nade spam or swift Aura.
It was pointless to nerf Vassili. That just took a huge chunk out of his playstyle and is one step further to making this game an even more linear, generic FPS.
I’ve adapted to this new playstyle, but it’s very boring and just not like it was. At least give Vassili a second ability. [/quote]
What do you do on Underground?
Also, it’s funny you say “linear, generic FPS” while CoD and BF both being linear, generic FPS allow to snipe wile jumping. Even jumping noscopes are possible.[/quote]
Pull out the Nader and nade the Vassili to death. Fragger works as well. Phantom too (flank them). Molotov to get them out of their position. However, a good Vassili, just like any other merc, will try to counter their counter by changing up their playstyle. Like staying in a general area, then rushing in quickscoping or whatever. Things like that.
CoD is definitely linear, but BF isn’t. At least not Bad Company 2 (the ones after it turned into an almost-CoD fest lmao. When I say linear, I mean lack of options to approach a situation, little cover, minimal routes, those sort of things. That’s just me kinda hoping for maps that don’t have invisible walls everywhere and completely inaccessible sections.
How bad at DB do you have to be to not be able to kill a Vassili whether or not he’s jumping?[/quote]
Reversal:
How good at DB do you have to be to be able to kill a Vassili when you only see his peeking head across the map for a split second?[/quote]
Average? A bad Vassili peaks continuously from the same spot like an idiot and is a very easy target. A decent one peaks, shoots, if he misses, he changes location, but he’s still not hard to kill. He’s very squishy with no peripheral when scoped, and his secondaries suck ass so. Average. Keep watching the spot and chances are, most Vassili’s are stupid and will peak again.[/quote]
And here is where the fruit of the argument seems to lie, lay, whatever.
Nobody here is talking about bad Vasillis, we’re talking about good ones, the ones who can aim, who can make a sight line out of any position.
There’s a reason why the instant gib on headshot was removed, cause Vasillis in that competitive environment were only dealt with by another Vasilli.
Jump shooting while it seems fair, it’s also incredibly one sided, which is just Vasilli in general. You pretty much have to be up in his face, which is not even that effective anymore given he has just as much health as a Sawbonez or Bushwacka.
At this point it seems pretty clear Snipers don’t really seem to have a place in Dirty Bomb, that’s the main brunt of the issue. When they were in play they were detrimental to the game, and not that they aren’t being used often there’s really no need to play him. So the question is, what is the maximum potential that Vasilli should have, what steps should be taken to allow it?
Removing sway? Adding Jumpshooting back but at the cost of forcing people to unscope when they jump, so they have to press it again and actually time the shot? Chaning the move speed while scoped in for the Fe Lix and MoA, so the MoA is better for corner peaking, and t he Fe Lix is better for stationary sniping?
There’s a multitude of solutions here, but it’s clear the map design needs a lot of work if a Vasilli is just that devastating on the majority of the maps.
[/quote]
Do hammers hurt?
[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;159973”]TBH the only reason why Vassili isn’t useful is because he has to sit so far away from the team and he doesn’t have a very strong special action. This game is very much focused on movement and applying pressure to set and defend C4. Defense has a lot of obstacles obscuring their view of their defensible areas, and the maps are very corridor and cover based. There are very few open areas, and of those open spaces, most all of them are narrow hallways or have a lot of alternative paths. This is a contrast to TF2 maps, BF4 maps, CS maps, where there are large open areas that a single sniper can cover all entrances and even the point.
The game is not designed to support Vassili, jumpshots or not. Any good sniper can plink jumping mercs, without having to jump himself. Just look at any pro TF2 sniper. They don’t jumpfire at all, and they can headshot ROCKET/STICKY JUMPING PLAYERS. WITH LAG. LIKE WHAT?
Vassili can’t repair. He can’t arm. He can’t defuse. He can’t be near medics for reviving. He can’t reliably cover areas. He can’t destroy the EV. He can’t stop players hiding behind the EV. He can’t give his team any refillables. He’s just NOT designed for this game, as a class, whether or not he can jump and fire.[/quote]
Nah, until the jumpshotting stuff, he was a very potent merc in plenty of situation. If you were able to place your motion sensor nicely, an almost cqc style was possible, if you were good enough to get a guaranteed hit with the bolt action rifles, which is very far from difficult. This only required some good reflexes, and a minimum knowledge and of db’s movement system. And this was fun, rewarding, and not so hard overall. You just had to think about being aggressive.
Now he’s just handicapped compared to the true place snipers should have in this game.
So, did a lot of people actually talk about jumpshot problem and how to nerf it before the patch? I don’t think I really saw one.
[quote=“Xavien;160003”][quote=“kibloy;160001”]Don’t feed the trolls.
But at this point I’m starting to believe they’re feeding each other.[/quote]
As people have mentioned before, I don’t think anyone has ever offered this idea to nerf jumpshot sniping and give it RNG but when it came in the patch, people started defending that idea like they have long agreed with it and have been suggesting it for the longest time. Some may be trolls I’m guessing and it’s really bugging me.[/quote]
Because they want it easy, one less thing to worry about…who cares if a Fletcher gets a lucky toss or two and a Proxy Suicide blows up a whole room…they don’t…because it doesn’t take much skill and it is easy for THEM to do. It’s dumb as $#!% but they love it because it’s easy to do and sometimes as hard if not harder to counter.
But jump sniping is a skill they don’t have and it takes a lot of skill…so they say nerf it to the ground.
There is no logical reason people can support the jump sniping nerf and not cry for mercs like Proxy and Fletcher to be nerfed…
But I guess everyone is afraid of snipers…people just want easy kills…a good Vassili is hard to kill…nerfed Sparks and Vassili in the last few patches to death and everyone else is fine.
See more and more people bunny hopping, especially with shotguns…they rely on luck…that is what this game is more and more…it’s not about skill it’s about luck…and these people are afraid of truly skillful classes…because any half decent Vassili wouldn’t let a Proxy or Aura bunny hop in their face, and that scares them.
So they whine and moan for nerfs…
Not that I saw. Maybe saw one person once in a while say it doesn’t make sense because #RLphysics but we all know bringing what’s realistic to the table in a discussion or debate about Dirty Bomb just makes you look idiotic. Didn’t really see much else. It was never a problem, but now that it was nerfed, there’s two or three people carrying their harpoon in this thread about it as if they always considered it a problem, like @Xavien said, and pretty much what @Sorotia just said above me.
No, I just decided my time was better spent elsewhere as I’ve already made my point, and this is not a debate in which either side is going to give in to the other.
One thing that people keep bringing up is that jumpshotting was never an issue until it appeared in the patchnotes. This is false. I have been opposed to it from the very first time it was used against me, and there have been teammates that feel the same. (Those that actually talk).
Everything else has either been said and done, or people with the willpower to carry on the conversation will probably do so. Me, I have no interest in trying to convert a zealous jump abuser.
No, I just decided my time was better spent elsewhere as I’ve already made my point, and this is not a debate in which either side is going to give in to the other.
One thing that people keep bringing up is that jumpshotting was never an issue until it appeared in the patchnotes. This is false. I have been opposed to it from the very first time it was used against me, and there have been teammates that feel the same. (Those that actually talk).
Everything else has either been said and done, or people with the willpower to carry on the conversation will probably do so. Me, I have no interest in trying to convert a zealous jump abuser.[/quote]
If you’re so against jump shooting then why aren’t you asking for it to be nerfed now? Bunny hopping shotgunners are getting more common by the day, I did a 8v8 yesterday where more than half the team was either Proxy or Aura. They would be on their @$$ if they tried that in RL, but this game isn’t RL…so how is it fair that any other weapon in the game can be hip shot and bunny shot but Sniper Rifles can’t?
[quote=“neverplayserious;159986”]@MidnightButterSweats then what exactly are assaults doing in db? I would rather trust on a sniper to hold down an area than on an assault (which also are slow at arming, defusing, can’t give teammates ammo/hp and suck at destroying the ev).
Not to mention that you can shoot people in their feet when they’re behind the ev and most vassili’s will be close enough to medics for a revive except if you have a vassili that’s in the back of the map going for 1 pick each spawn wave.[/quote]
Assaults have higher HP for moderate tanking and higher damage to break defense, and they can cluster with the team so medics can heal and revive them, without having to backtrack, to keep momentum. Vassili’s that keep up with medics are the ones that are bitching right now, in this thread, because they can no longer be a mid range assaulter, and are forced into playing long range (like a sniper is supposed to).
I think the point is that there were a trillion other genuinely problematic things people were wanting balanced, and very few people considered an uncrippled Vassili to be a problem, because it was such a rare occurrence to begin with. Then there’s like TWO of you who are like yep, yep, that needed nerfed, it was gamebreaking!
The point is that it wasn’t and very few actually cared, because most people who pick up and use Vassili, don’t keep using him long enough to advance that skill curve and actually be competent with it.
Folks for the nerf are saying he wasn’t counterable when he was very much so. The devs said they nerfed it because it was “annoying and frustrating to play against” quote unquote. I mean…
A zealous jump abuser… You’re going to tell me that no body, in Dirty Bomb’s current state, is using the jump mechanic now that jumpsniping isn’t a thing anymore? Are we playing the same game?