Jumpshooting... again.


(Dog) #81

@Matuno if we’re working under the logic that you have to understand both sides of on the scope and off the scope, we should also exclude Jostabeere’s opinion because he’s already expressed that he only just played Vasilli when he got the Humble Bundle pack. And that would be silly. As much as I don’t agree with his opinion, he has every right to express it coming from a side that rarely or never is on the side of the scope. Does it invalidate his opinion? No. Does it make his opinion stronger? No. Is it still a valid opinion? Yes.

Maining a merc doesn’t make your opinion any less weak, it just gives you a specific insight into them. I have a lot of time logged into Vasilli, much more than any other merc, but my arguably best merc is Arty. I’ve given and received scope action both as Vasilli and as other mercs, and it doesn’t make my opinion on Vasilli’s balance any better informed than somebody who plays exclusively Vasilli, somebody who doesn’t play Vasilli, or somebody that plays Vasilli from time to time. Reason for that? Because every type of player will experience Vasilli’s balance in some way, shape, or form.

A person who never plays Vasilli will still experience the effects of Vasilli’s balance (see FE-LIX 80 damage per shot). A person who plays a lot of Vasilli will experience the effects as well, but in different ways (see instagib changes and jump shot changes). Balance changes will inevitably be felt by both sides of the scope, and it’s important to distinguish when this change is meaningful and overall positive.

And so we have to evaluate every side’s opinion on the jump shot changes, diehard mains or diehard haters included. And if we do look at it, virtually nobody complained about Vasilli being overpowered before the jumpshot change. If anything, people were complaining about Vasillis being useless campers most of the time, but brutal in the hands of a good player. Which isn’t a bad thing, any merc can be brutal in the right hands, and Vasilli wasn’t creating any specific meta around him at the time either. If anything, he was considered weak compared to Redeye in the competitive scene.

What happened after the change? Well we can see. Some people, who never mentioned jump shots being a problem before, suddenly appeared and lauded the change, while a lot of Vasilli players (not all of them, but a lot of them) complained about the change because it felt like an unnecessary nerf for a merc that had a struggling competitive role. And the average complaint that I usually see is still of bad Vasilli players who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn if given 20 minutes to line up the shot, and still being brutal in the hands of a good player. All that changed was Vasilli’s competitive viability was bulldozed into the ground.

Essentially, all the change did was cement Vasilli into the category of pub star merc, and gutted his competitive viability in the face of supreme recon overlord Redeye and the PDP. And is that a good change? No, it really isn’t. Competitive play only benefits from having wide merc diversity, since a wide merc diversity at least shakes up a stale meta team comp with variable components. There’s only so much Fragger, Sawbonez, fire support/engineer, other medic/engineer, Redeye/engineer you can watch before it feels like watching a rerun. And nerfing the PDP wouldn’t even mean a return of Vasilli, since Vasilli was already being replaced with another fire support after the instagib changes.


(Jostabeere) #82

@Dog Just because I haven’t played Vassili much, doesn’t mean I don’t know or have not played enough a sniper role in various games. Vassili just seems useless in DB to me, that’s why I don’t feel to play him, and get 30K kills for my opinion in a thread that will go around in circles because Vassili-lovers think a cheap mechanic can be compared to other mechanics to be more important. If you think you need to play a merc to be stronger or weaker in a discussion about him, well, that’s just your opinion. And we can say this thread is pointless because @Mercy and his sidekick did not play all the other mercs they judge about long enough.


(Dog) #83

You obviously didn’t read what I wrote at all. I said it doesn’t matter how much you play Vasilli in the very first paragraph.


(Sinee) #84

[quote=“Matuno;159689”]“Everywhere”.
No, jackass[/quote]

You flaunted your time spent and said you were a beast. I was curious as to what your stats were. Wasn’t an attack or anything, just idle curiosity on your stats that doesn’t have much to do with the topic. Just my own personal interest into where your pride was coming from.

Sorry your jimmies are so rustled.


(Sinee) #85

That would be inaccurate for me. I play other mercs plenty, and have played against Merciless more times than I’d like. So I play Vassili enough to know how he works, and have played against a very good one enough to know what it’s like. It’s not fun being against a good sniper, but there’s plenty in DB that I find far more difficult to contend with.


(Jostabeere) #86

You obviously didn’t read what I wrote at all. I said it doesn’t matter how much you play Vasilli in the very first paragraph.[/quote]

Yeah, I misread a bit of it.


(Matuno) #87

@Dog You are right about people being entitled to their own opinion, and my only intent is to make the other side of the debate known.

I’ve taken offense at jumpsniping Vassilis well before it showed up in the patch notes, for reasons I’ve already spoken about.


(Merci1ess) #88

And here’s the problem that makes you so narrowsighted. If you don’t know what life is like OUTSIDE the scope, how can you claim to understand the balance of things?
Also, though some mercs may be more favourable for you, you really shouldn’t have a “main”.[/quote]

You know… I can’t say I have been on the other end of the scope. Mostly because there’s never good Vassili’s out there to show me how it’s done or maybe because I just… managed to counter them? I’ve played Fragger, Phantom, Phoenix, you name it, all before the patch and honestly… I’ve played against a very few that attempted to jump snipe me. Fragger did the trick. Easy and effortless. If you know how to count to 2, you’re all set. Come to think of it… Yeah, I’ve been on the other end of the scope. Even during the instagib phase. Never have I felt that Vassili was overpowered. I just commended the player who managed to land a headshot on me. He earned it. It wasn’t a fuck ass stickie grenade, wasn’t a “Count to 2 and throw” grenade, it wasn’t a laser, artillery, mine… No. It was a very much deserved kill. Plain and simple. I just play Vassili way more because it feels rewarding to me. Killing someone with a shotgun or a mine or artillery or a grenade… Personally, it feels undeserved. But that’s just me.

If this really was a needed change… Then explain to me why they made this change in the past to then revert it not too long after. Keep in mind, Vassili, during that time, could instagib on headshots. What made it okay… now? What makes it suddenly acceptable? Vassili being more OP? No… how? He can’t instagib anymore.

The best excuse we have at the moment is Smooth mentioning that it was annoying and frustrating. Fuck… My bad. I’m convinced Vassili really needed this nerf.


(neverplayseriou) #89

Vassili is just a lame merc at this moment, holds nothing special anymore imo, first they remove insta gibbing (tiny buff to snipers which was quite useless since a faster fire rate still won’t make up for having to fire 2 shots to gib, that is if ur good at sniping).

Then sd decided to nerf the mp400 (because it was so easy to kill a skyhammer with the mp400 if you got flanked and missed your sniper shot).

Now they decided to remove jump shooting, the only way to safely take a shot in db without getting insta killed by weapons such as the stark, br16, revivr, pdp/grandeur and all vassili gets is this measly 10 hp which no where comes close to the hp u lose against any of the above weapons when u have to slowly turn a corner.

This just seems to be some personal issue the devs had with vass since I have barely seen any complaint threads about Vassili on these forums. So or the devs are just going to nerf things if they don’t like them (which is really worth it since most of the devs do spend like 1 hour a month in db) or they’re looking at some forum full of retards like the steam forums which shouldn’t be looked at in the first place.


(sneak) #90

It makes no sense to allow snipers to even keep the scope open while jumping. I always say “this isn’t a simulator” and tha’ts true, but allowing jump-sniping crosses the line. It actually takes less skill because it gives Vassili all the advantage by only being visible to the enemy for a brief moment but still getting 1-hit kills with a headshot. Hitting someone while jumping through the air isn’t really hard for someone who can aim good anyways, therefore why give them an extra advantage of being unable to be even targeted while getting kills?

They should follow the example of ET, since it was so balanced (etpro) and fair.

To fix snipers they need to expand the maps and give good vantage points for the sniper as well as fix the inconsistency of the scoped shots and the wild inaccuracy of noscope shots. Server-side hit registration & anti-lag would be good too. Right now, we have an issue where if two snipers are face to face and one guy fires the first shot and gets the headshot sound, the other sniper gets the kill and receives 0 damage just because his ping is lower. That’s totally unfair. On the flip-side of things, you have players with 200+ ping sniping you long after you’re around a corner. Players with such high ping shouldn’t even be allowed to play on the server.


(Teflon Love) #91

Are you certain that’s the case? I rarely play Vasili but with other mercs I’ve been in firefights that ended with both of us down and the event log announcing " shot " and " shot ". Lag compensation is perfect explanation for that.


(Teflon Love) #92

That just sounds like Fragger and Sawbonez need a nerf… :wink:


(sneak) #93

Are you certain that’s the case? I rarely play Vasili but with other mercs I’ve been in firefights that ended with both of us down and the event log announcing " shot " and " shot ". Lag compensation is perfect explanation for that.[/quote]

Yes and I’m aware that happens but not in the same situations. The whole point of antilag is to make sure that players are treated as if they have equal ping so that only shots that should count will count. If two players kill eachother with bullets that demonstrates a lack of antilag (and this happens often in DB).


(XavienX) #94

…I really don’t get why people are complaining that it’s OP and annoying to be jumpshotted. Do you know the decreased chances of jumpshotting a headshot compared to landing a sticky, shotgun shot or knife lunge which is based off completely to skill? Jeez.


(opicr0n) #95

It this still going on? Why not bring back a few necro threads to express the situation more. Well, at least its good for a laugh every now and then.


(Merci1ess) #96

Alot of things make no sense in this game. Like a 90 pound chick firing a shotgun. More so when she jumps and fires it.

If it took less skill to jump-snipe then where were the people during all this time? Like I said in another one of my posts I’ve met one single person able to do it properly and effectively during my 700 hours of gaming experience on DB. Everyone else were either okay or failed miserably. You know what I see a ton of though? Bouncing Fletchers! Bouncing Auras! Bouncing Proxies! Bouncing alot of things since bolt-action rifles are the only weapons that you’re are not allowed to jump with.

So, would you rather get shot by a jumping sniper from behind cover? or a Fletcher throwing you a stickie and blowing your face off as he jumps from behind cover? Picture a level 5 that you’re trying to give tips here and tell me what would be easiest thing for him to do.


(Merci1ess) #97

It’s not as pointless as your opinion in which carries no weight what so ever because you, yourself, mentioned that you got the DB starter pack, got Vassili in that pack, tried him and completely failed. You went as far as saying that you wouldn’t recommend playing him and then you come here and try to tell us why this nerf is good for him? If you nerf a mercenary it’s because he was OP right? Then why the hell are you not recommending this mercenary for people to play? My guess would be that you completely sucked with him. When you come here and say shit like you know what you’re talking about I just can’t help but think that the only reason you’re defending this is because “I can’t play with him so no one can” and you don’t wanna deal with people who can actually play the damn guy.


(Sinee) #98

Alot of things make no sense in this game. Like a 90 pound chick firing a shotgun. More so when she jumps and fires it.[/quote]
@sneak

As a southern girl, I’ve done my fair share of attempting shooting shotguns in my life. I’m fairly small, and the recoil and kick on sawed off or normal shotguns is enough to break bones, bruise, dislocate, or throw someone down if they’re small, like say… Proxy, Aura… Way too small to physically fire any kind of double barrel shotgun consistently and accurately, nevermind jump with one. That shit hurts, really fucking bad.

But you say jump sniping crosses the line because it’s too out of the depth of real life??? Really… It’s not, even, seeing as there’s a lot of light-weight sniper rifle models that you probably could jump with, though I don’t see why anyone would jump with one or a shotgun in real life.

I wouldn’t even remotely bring real life physics into the discussion, it’s an argument that holds no water at all in Dirty Bomb and does you no favors.


(sonsofaugust5) #99

BRING BACK THE JUMP SNIPE or continue making the game bland (wouldn’t the JUMP SNIPE BE OP WITH PDP? bunny hopping redeye)


(Captain_Forward) #100

“They nerfed MY uncounterable playstyle, how they even dare”