INF3RN0's brink balance discussion

(Steinernein) #41

I really want to be nice to the OP but instead I’ll just call him flat out ****ing retarded. But pretty much Laokin or whatever the **** his name is went over these points.

A million ****ing questions, **** (Which are more or less related to each other)!:

Don’t you think it is a bit early to decide anything?

What major tournaments have released?

How big of a sample is there in terms of competitive teams?

Do we have 10 or 100? And how many of those do you know?

Do you think that the metagame has already evolved to its highest state and thus requires balance changes that you have exactly described in order to shift things?

What proof do you have that SMGs do not taper at long range, can you provide in depth screen shots with analysis as to the damage/range (perhaps a graph in the end to summarize it so we can see the curve or perhaps the lack thereof) .

On the note of weapons do you have statistical data on all the weapons (a chart would be helpful because the graphical bars representing **** in the game is just horrid and misleading)?

Have you analyzed what information means in this game and what possibilities operatives can have in a competitive situation? Does comhacking have any uses? Does marking have any uses? What if you combine comhacking and grenade launchers? What if you combine marking iwth grenade launchers? What about caltrops and their ability to tell players where and when something crosses over them? What about the fact that operatives can spot mines? What about the fact that emp grenades wipes out radar, stuns turrets/mines , and delays objectives?

As for heavy weapons, let’s go back to the millions of gun questions: have you tried the various heavy weapons under various conditions such as with medic sprint/adrenaline? With engineer buff? With the enemy team half wounded?

Basically, you’re a ****ing retard for making this thread. Have a ing :stroggtapir: ! The bottom line is critical thinking is your guide and what you lack is that. Bring ‘teh mathz’ to the table, bring evidence other than your anecdotal bull ( I hear in Russia you get thrown in jail for anecdotes). Even ****ing top players are fallible and aren’t the best sources to go to for balance information (hint: there is no one source double hint: larger sample size is win in USA - everything is better bigger including 8]]]]]]]]]]]D ) Even that double ****er Laokin is fallible. In the end it’s all about EVIDENCE.

Oh beyond the general need for evidence for the sake of everyone arguing here, there is one more thing that needs to be cleared away: deliberate ignorance is hardly a trait here, but the number enemy are preconceived notions and those MUST be thrown out in order for people to look at ****ing **** objectively.

You shouldn’t be looking at a heavy weapon and think immediately about weapons from say TF2 or CoD or whatever cock sucking game you play. Rather you should think about how it operates and how it relates to other weapons/**** in the game. Treat Brink as its own internal world with its own internal definitions then figure it out from there. ****. God OP y u so dum?

(INF3RN0) #42

Please troll elsewhere…

(Steinernein) #43

I would be trolling if I didn’t offer you the exact pathway that every intelligent community uses to analyze their objects of interest. However, as you can see, I have pretty much drawn a nice map for you to prove your points, retard.

If you think that this is someone else’s account go look at my post history and see if you can find any consistency with this so-called ‘steinernein’ and whoever you think is my primary.

I am also pretty sure no troll would spend this much effort to point out the horrible flaws in your arguments but perhaps I misread the title as “INF3RN0’s logical Brink changes”, maybe if you’re willing to compromise you should put " INF3RN0’s First Impressions of Brink Balance" .

If you also look at the historical context of the word ‘discussion’ you’ll note that we have nothing to discuss because you’re blatantly retarded beyond what the American education system can actually produce (I have not seen much idiocy on this level, though perhaps I need to get out more often). Discussion requires actual material such as statistics, data, anything. You have provided NOTHING but random opinions with seemingly no consistency and not even butchered chat logs showing ‘top Brink’ players saying X.

You haven’t even done what Laokin has done which is to post credentials (which , by the way, is a retarded thing to ask of anyone since it’s a fallacy in itself). Sadly, I have contributed more to this thread than you have and that’s more than I really desired. I sincerely hope whoever does take on the task of creating a thread about balance does so n a serious manner. If you look at any ‘serious’ paper be it academic journal or otherwise they tend to provide evidence rather than anecdote.

Whatever you were trained in, INF3RN0, it is not sufficient for purposes of discussing balance. And if you are being serious then you should follow my advice (and that of the other posters here) and treat it as a serious matter. If not then why don’t you troll elsewhere like …4chan.

tl;dr you’re still a retard INF3RN0, quit assuming and quit committing fallacy after fallacy. Srs balance is srs, plz stop being a troll. Address the arguments, quit being a pussy-fag-double-retard-CoD-playing****head.

Thought of the day: Just because you’re good at one thing doesn’t necessarily mean you’re good at another. You may be good at some aspects of the game or good at it in general but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re good at playing thing through by logic and analysis of what you’re actually doing.

(INF3RN0) #44

At first it appeared like you two were one in the same person LOL! The manner of your posts were uncannily similar. I mean honestly the stuff lao was saying like “an AR with tighter spread and a lower RoF makes it more OP than an SMG” and “Operatives shouldn’t be the class with hack reversal because they can disguise and kill a whole team” and “10% dmg reduction does something” etc is just ridonculous. I say HF being self-proclaimed pros when it comes to making forum posts about your extensive experiences in low level pub game play…

PS why don’t you hop on #brinkscrim and ask teams like eMg, hubris, etc what their thoughts on guns are… SMG light/med all day kid.

(Steinernein) #45

Because ultimately what it boils down to is a question of evidence, both he and I ask for that? More so me than him, he relies on anecdotes too which is why he is a flaming faggot. If there is any similarity it is probably grounded in the desire for logic except he is too much of a pussy to spell it out for you (that or he is equally retarded but in a different fashion).

All that is really needed for this so-called discussion to go anywhere is just a collection of screenshots coupled with hard statistical data (screenshots can lead to data, just fire the spread at various ranges and screen shot it).

In the end you really don’t get the point at all, you’re so focused on your own ego rather than the actual mission, you’re still butt hurt over Lao’s statements and your childish mentality kind of shows when you post **** like

I say HF being self-proclaimed pros when it comes to making forum posts about your extensive experiences in low level pub game play…
which has zero relevance because at this current point none of you can prove anything and even if you did it WOULD NOT (read: would not) help the discussion of balance whatsoever.

Are you educated enough to know about the principals of the Enlightenment and about the scientific method? It’s relevant here.

Oh, ps, you tard how did you get the same feeling that Lao = me when it’s pretty blatantly obvious that the disguise ability is probably worthless in competitive matches? Read the arguments rather than trying to play psychologist and/or internet detective. It’s pretty simple: given the strengths of the operative (the **** I listed) and the current lack of formal tournaments (as a real testing ground) can you say with a straight face that operatives need change? Or if I can better phrase it : is there a possibility that the operative is actually balanced pending metagame shifts?

It’s a very SIMPLE concept. Again, you can shove your ego up your ass and just address the points instead of making this a personal **** fest which all balance threads inevitably become (because no one ever ****ing provides one iota of evidence, at least no one who claims seriousness prior to showing proof. ) Generally those serious about balance will provide evidence in the opening post.

Science. Do it. It’s not that hard (but it is tedious).

(INF3RN0) #46

Well then that’s a wrap. Guess we will just stick with our SMGs and not use those heavies since we just aren’t good enough to understand how to use em properly anyway. I mean everyone on the carb-9 boat was just trying to find some good reasons to try something else, but I guess I’ll let you chat with em first. Meh.

(oddling) #47

Operatives are fine. Leave us alone. Like others have said, they’re good. But you only want one or two on your team. Don’t make them better. The last thing the game needs is half the players running around in disguise making you “spy check” constantly.

(Vlane) #48

Two operatives? That’s a waste of space in competitive. Even one is pushing it from my experience.

(Steinernein) #49

INF3RN0 do you ever actually read posts or do you operate under intuition even when you have the chance to thoroughly consider matters? You really ought to stop trolling yourself, it’s not very healthy.

Operatives are fine. Leave us alone. Like others have said, they’re good. But you only want one or two on your team. Don’t make them better. The last thing the game needs is half the players running around in disguise making you “spy check” constantly.

I wouldn’t say operatives are fine either. There is something odd about the game’s balance but in what direction is the question and since very few hard numbers are out there everything is just done based on anecdote.

(sh0otM3) #50

The shotgun is sooo weak sauce.

(Ragoo) #51

I totally agree with what you said about the Weapons. SMGs are just super OP atm, ARs are all over the place when you try to kill anything midrange and thus in every aspect inferior to SMGs and big weapons don’t do their job either. I think once you changed the problems with accuracy for ARs and heavy weapons, you don’t need to modify headshot damage tho.

We will also have to see how good heavies are when their weapons actually have high dps (which atm they have not cause they are not accurate). Maybe more energy and/or more HP is still needed then. I’d like more HP.

I agree with Buffs but that’s something that I (and most people) haven’t really figured out so far.

I totally agree that Operative should be able to remove the hackbox. Debuff grenade sounds fancy, again I haven’t figured out buffs all that much so nc.

I don’t agree about Soldiers being underpowered tho. A soldier with Kevlar, Flashbang, Scavenge and the three nade abilities has a clear role to be the tough AoE supporter who gives out ammo. Sounds fine imo :wink:

Furthermore - as I stated in another thread already - I’d like to say that in organized matches rank 4 and 5 abilities should be disabled, except for some (EMP and splash+damage for nades from Soldier should stay; Comms Hack, Homing Beacon, Combat Intuition and Adrenaline in its current state should go).

Also some of the spawn timers on some maps need to be changed to make it less defensive favored and dehacking shouldn’t be nearly as fast and maybe hacking should be faster and maybe the way escort bots work should be changed (defenders timing to down it in the most horrible spots).

And I feel firefights are a bit stale, maybe allow sprinting sideways as well? Just feels like I can only fight or run for cover but not really dodge in the fight. That may just be because I played so much ET:QW with bunnyhopping fights tho :wink:

That’s all I want to say about balance issues right now.

(DarthBenedict) #52

Thats a pretty severe disconnect between what the weapon looks like and what it does. Huge gatling guns are for killing people, not mildly reducing their health so your allies can take them out. If that is meant to be what heavy weapons do, they really need new models or the gap between expectation and performance will confuse and annoy a lot of people.

(peteXnasty) #53

Long story short, homeboy is right: game is a week old. Commenting on balance is out of the question currently. I die to SMGs all the time cause there’s lots of SMGs. Im getting the AR’s under control finally and getting my operative to rank 4 opened up so many gameplay options not available to any other class at all. One operative is pushing it? I think a team lacking one, FACING one will have their entire game plan turned on its head

Key word…think. we will see. So will everyone else. Until then, smg’s.

(Ragoo) #54

Oh noes, all the useless spam threads put a good thread like this on page 3!

Suddenly, a bump!!

(Apples) #55

[QUOTE=Ragoo;314140]Oh noes, all the useless spam threads put a good thread like this on page 3!

Suddenly, a bump!![/QUOTE]

You being ironic right?

It was cool at first, but then an avalanche of censored words plagued the day for me :frowning:

Steiner guy need a multi infraction for “insulting other member” (I’m a pro with infraction’s reasons, I really am :smiley: )

And this thread should go in the comp section if its aimed at comp.

I do like these kind of threads as I dont bought the game yet and i’m waiting to buy it based mostly on the comments of people I know around here, but the wall of text to say that “If you dont have statistics and didnt run a PCA of all the variables affecting the kevlar vest, your point is void” is kind of extreme in my book :o

Inferno is generally not an ass making magic out of nowhere and his concern affects my judgment of the game, so keep the discussion civil please, the e-peen battle is pointless…

Peace

(peteXnasty) #56

Except the points he makes are very good, even if surrounded by *'s

(Apples) #57

You can have the better points you want, if the language is outrageous it never deserve your cause… Furthermore, telling someone his arguments are void because the game has yet to be tested is, at best, stupid, especially coming from someone self declaring himself as using a scientifical thinking.

Its like saying : Option A is not good because it has yet to be tested, so option B is better! (WHAT A BLUFFING LOGIC!)

I’m not biased here because I didnt see the spread of the weapons they are talking about, but saying thats its too much or too low is an opinion, and people constantly arguing for facts are not scientists, all scientific theory come first from an opinion (or an hypothesis as it is called in science) which is informative, thus influences the choice of your future analysis.

Saying “you need to wait for more time and more test” is also pointless as you can compare Brink to anyother FPS, especially ET or ETQW, and see by yourself which spread you prefer, I personnaly dont like shooting 25 bullets in order to hit one time… And adjusting spread without changing the damage too much is more likely the solution who will bring back skills relelvance the most, as with a bad aim, no matter how powerfull your weapon be, if you cant land a shot you’ll die first.

Last but not least, saying : “you are bad at the game” is simply stupid and will never prove any point, except that you are a jerk with a big e-go. Thats why if you add this to the influx of insults, it reduces considerably the envy to listen objectively to these guyz. I can also say that I can pown them anyday with an SmG vs any weapon in any situation without even playing the game, does that sound an argument to you???

For all these stuffs I think that adjusting spread is not at all a bad option and will be the less intrusive to balance the game.

And peace out, this thread is likely to get derailled there and the flame/insult war will begin.

(Nullzero) #58

I agree that the utility of Heavy Weapons are at best, questionable. SMGs do outperform MGs and the Gatling in almost every catagory except clip size. The grenade launcher is of some use at choke points, however.

The bottom line is, Heavy weapons need a role. How SD wants to Heavy Weapons to perform is a matter for them to decide. As it stands now, they are outperformed.

MY humble suggestion would be to make MGs and the Gatling a set-up and supress line of weapons. Make them powerful and accurate, but only when standing still… and only when not whipping the crosshair around frantically. That is to say… the cross hair is big and inaccurate when moving AT ALL. When stationary, the crosshair begins to shrink slowly… say over 4 seconds. At 4 seconds, it is at maximum accuracy. Swinging the crosshair more than 10-15 degrees in either direction causes the crosshair to lose accuracy again for 4 seconds.

The easiest implementation would just to require a set-up time… ala the MG in Day of Defeat, or the suppression teams in the Dawn of War series.

This lets MGs be easily flanked. This also gives Heavies a suppression role. They still fall to concentrated fire (because their hitpoints aren’t much stronger than a Light), and they are not maneuverable enough to get into the best firing positions. The “set-up” time for the weapons mean that they can’t be used in close range for anything other than the occasional lucky shot.

It’s up to SD though. I don’t know what kind of game they want to make… they may not want suppression in the game. Maybe they see the heavy weapons having a different role.

(peteXnasty) #59

His major point, to me, was the “have you thought and tested every variable?” Until you have you can’t dismiss anything, only a week into a game

I thought operatives were pointless until I got caltrops and discovered good users for them and nifty disguise tricks.

I hated playing as the heavy until this thread made me get certain buffs bfore wading into combat

I do feel the heavy guns need work BUT they just possibly found their real niche yet. People who think about the game more than I do need more time to sit with it and try ideas out. I feel no team should be without a heavy medic. And a light operative for example, everyone else disagrees with that. Who knows yet? Maybe everyone is right.

(GingThu) #60

Uh where did you get that from. A person who KNOWS how to play a heavy is devastating. A person who knows how to play a heavy, plus a team full of damage and kevlar buffs and a good medic is unbeatable.

On my team we have 2 heavys who destroy every match.

Im not sure what you want from this game but as i said before the balance seems fine for me, it just the weapons dont work like YOU want them to work. I have killed kids who are using the Carb-9 with a pistol. Its not that hard it just comes down to skill and more importantly smarts. If you know a kid is running around the map getting up close with his SMG, equip a shotgun and take him out. Or if your using an AR remember to stay at range and dont let anyone get to close to you.