INF3RN0's brink balance discussion

Nail · 2011-05-18 04:23:28 UTC

"Again, this shows that you are most likely just bad at the game. "

or you’re just better at it

Laokin · 2011-05-18 04:29:12 UTC

[QUOTE=Nail;313492]"Again, this shows that you are most likely just bad at the game. "

or you’re just better at it[/QUOTE]

Fair enough… I don’t think I’m pro, or insanely good or anything… Yet, I don’t suffer from the problems most people speak about…

Although, I can’t argue the fact that I jumped to a conclusion, and maybe that was wrong… but I’m getting pretty tired of people screaming things that are simply untrue.

It can be tested very easily… Start a game with a buddy, pick an SMG and peep the damage fall off… this is something I have already done, and can confirm exists.

Even at close range, optimal range with SMG’s, if you aren’t a soldier with armor pen, and they have armor, you are pretty much effectively useless… Couple that with your adversary having a weapon buff, and you become clearly out matched… if you have a weapon buff and they don’t, it’s almost fair… SMG’s still lose out a tiny bit here…

I.E.

Unless you are better than the guy you are fighting (assuming a 1v1 situation) be prepared to lose… or retreat, everytime.

This isn’t the definition of Over Powered(OP) in my mind… it’s quite the contrary, if you are getting torn up by SMG’s it’s your engi’s job to toss out armor to counter it.

Brink is a team game, and people get upset when in a public game their teamates don’t do their job… then they come running to the forums claiming such and such is OP… when that’s not the case.

INF3RN0 · 2011-05-18 04:33:36 UTC

Ok… how often do you get the chance to out gun an SMG? Pretty sure I am bad at understanding what works and what doesn’t. And that’s why your going to see 99% SMG gun play in competitive matches. Do you just pub, kill some rando with an AR, and then think you know what your talking about? It doesn’t have to be ET, but it needs to be better.

Um also I don’t think you understand what I was saying with the operative hack reversal… if your on defense and you want to start reversing a hack, you use an operative instead of an engy. Are you saying your going to disguise yourself and sneak into the obj your defending, while they are there hacking it… just makes no sense.

No good teams use heavies.

Um… are you just trolling because it sounds like you haven’t played or seen play from teams like eMg.

Maybe your good at pubbing… and bad at realizing what is actually going on around you?

peteXnasty · 2011-05-18 04:46:54 UTC

Headshots need less emphasis to promote weapon balance. I’ve playedgames where they are ruined by insta kill headshots…Metal Gear Online was unplayable to new players unless you taped a dot to your tv to snap an instant headshot. Super frustrating.

I feel like guns need more recoil, unique recoil, and unique damage rather than having a LMG be beaten by someone spraying bullets at shoulder level (which is SOCOM 4 in its current state)

Also a good operative can turn an entire match. Play the class out before talking down on it. By rank three, theybare amazing.

Nail · 2011-05-18 04:52:41 UTC

INF3RN0 is speaking about Brink in the competition sense, not normal pub stuff, I think

Laokin · 2011-05-18 04:54:58 UTC

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;313501]Ok… how often do you get the chance to out gun an SMG? Pretty sure I am bad at understanding what works and what doesn’t. And that’s why your going to see 99% SMG gun play in competitive matches. Do you just pub, kill some rando with an AR, and then think you know what your talking about? It doesn’t have to be ET, but it needs to be better.

Um also I don’t think you understand what I was saying with the operative hack reversal… if your on defense and you want to start reversing a hack, you use an operative instead of an engy. Are you saying your going to disguise yourself and sneak into the obj your defending, while they are there hacking it… just makes no sense.

No good teams use heavies.

Um… are you just trolling because it sounds like you haven’t played or seen play from teams like eMg.

Maybe your good at pubbing… and bad at realizing what is actually going on around you?[/QUOTE]

Nah, not the case my man. Not trolling either. If the operative could defuse a hack box, while the offense is hacking it, he would stealth in, clear the room, start the dehack, run… redisquise… rinse repeat…

Also, you seem to forget that there can be more than one operative, so you can 3 or 4 clear a room at the same time, if you are coordinated like a pro team.

That would be completely OP. I get the chance to outgun SMG’s all the time… with my guess what… my SMG. This doesn’t mean I don’t use my AR, it just means MY AR IS FOR A PURPOSE, and that is vs armored foes (since they do far more damage than SMGs, and Kevlar Mitigates more from SMG’s than it does from AR’s.) or for picking at a range… which is really really really helpful if you are on D.

Yes, SMG’s are pretty important… no they aren’t OP, but yes they are the bread and butter… since Brink is mostly a close ranged shooter, due to the fact that you can close range quickly.

So yes, SMG’s are always going to be used more, but this is to be expected in a game that focuses mostly on CQB’s. Everything has it’s purpose, period.

And yes, Heavy’s have a purpose too… The game is new, people are still figuring out the game…

In TF you expect the heavy to be the biggest damage dealer. In Brink, you expect the heavy to take the most damage. They are no where near as slow as the heavy in TF, and as a result, buffing their damage would just make everyone pick heavy instead.

As it stands right now, yes… some teams don’t use them, but that maybe cuz their players are better at playing Lights, that doesn’t mean that Light/medium is better than Heavy, it just means it suits a different play style, and since your team is made up of individual people, who have individual play styles, it’s inevitable that you will have teams that are just better at not using heavies… this doesn’t mean the heavy is broken… As a lot of teams have already showed how well they work…

Maybe it is you, who doesn’t see what actually goes on around him… because I happen to already KNOW FOR A FACT, that SMG’s have HUUUUUUUUUUUGE damage fall off, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOR accuracy at long range, Armor HEAVILY Mitigates the damage of SMG’s, much less than AR’s, and that the AR’s trump them at what their were designed to Trump them in… which is Distance shooting. Hence why they spread out more than SMG’s aswell.

Once again, there are two weapon slots for a reason. 1 Long range, 1 Short range… in short range, if you are using the long range, you SHOULD lose.

I don’t know how you don’t understand this concept?

It just seems you don’t look at facts… you just look at what people complain about, rather than verifying weather or not those claims are actual facts, when they are in reality… fiction. It’s nothing like what you make the game seem like.

It isn’t ET, and it doesn’t need to be better(it’s already fantastic), you need to learn the game… instead of claiming you know everything about it in the first two weeks…

You are just repeating drivel from people who don’t know what they are talking about. You want to prove a point, start throwing facts at me, like I threw at you.

I.E.

Kevlar Mitigates more against SMG’s than AR’s. The counter to SMG’s is having a good team that knows how to nullify the SMG’s advantage. Not only that, but SMG’s will never be good at range shooting, where as AR’s and the Barnett are… so yeah.

P.S.

There are other threads already claiming exactly what you claim about SMG’s about the Barnett… Further proving my point.

Nail · 2011-05-18 04:59:24 UTC

lol, comp players complaining that smg is OP

hats off to Laokin, you understand the game

have a tapir and a koekje

:stroggtapir:

Apoc · 2011-05-18 05:03:59 UTC

[quote=Laokin;313497]

Even at close range, optimal range with SMG’s, if you aren’t a soldier with armor pen, and they have armor, you are pretty much effectively useless… Couple that with your adversary having a weapon buff, and you become clearly out matched… if you have a weapon buff and they don’t, it’s almost fair… SMG’s still lose out a tiny bit here…

I.E.

Unless you are better than the guy you are fighting (assuming a 1v1 situation) be prepared to lose… or retreat, everytime.

This isn’t the definition of Over Powered(OP) in my mind… it’s quite the contrary, if you are getting torn up by SMG’s it’s your engi’s job to toss out armor to counter it.

Brink is a team game, and people get upset when in a public game their teamates don’t do their job… then they come running to the forums claiming such and such is OP… when that’s not the case.[/quote]

Your wrong about smgs they are by far the best weapons on the game. Theres a reason why pretty much all comp teams carry carb9 smgs around even if they are medium. The armour argument is fairly invalid, it gives you 10% damage reduction, meaning if it takes 10 bullets to normally kill someone, you need 11, smgs have a very nice tight spread and dominate at close and medium range. The fact they arent great at long range isnt that big a deal as maps are close quatre and many people carry a sniper in secondary which is better than AR at range.

As for heavys they are severely underpowered, i killed a heavy with a fully firing gatling gun with a pistol as light today…that shouldnt be possible. Their weapons have ridiculous spread, and it needs to be reduced, i think they also need 20 more hp to be honest. Otherwise there isnt much point in having one, they cant get places and they move slow.

As it is lights are the strongest class for kills, they have superior strafing making them hard to hit and the health difference isnt enough to make much difference. This coupled with the fact that for some reasons the smgs feel alot nicer and more effective when a light carrys them instead of a medium for some reason (anyone else get this feeling?) makes them deadly. I and most decent players i know have no issues taking out any heavy while playing light or medium. They usually go down quicker as its pretty much just a short burst at the head as they cant strafe out of the way.

To sumarise, the ARs and Heavy weps are underpowered, which makes the SMGs look overpowered.

P.s anytime you want to test your theorys laokin, im usually playing on one of the sGs & OCB pub servers(shameless plug), i will happily show you what smgs can do.

Laokin · 2011-05-18 05:05:15 UTC

No, he’s not… he just THINKS he is.

Laokin · 2011-05-18 05:08:39 UTC

[QUOTE=Apoc;313525]Your wrong about smgs they are by far the best weapons on the game. Theres a reason why pretty much all comp teams carry carb9 smgs around even if they are medium. The armour argument is fairly invalid, it gives you 10% damage reduction, meaning if it takes 10 bullets to normally kill someone, you need 11, smgs have a very nice tight spread and dominate at close and medium range. The fact they arent great at long range isnt that big a deal as maps are close quatre and many people carry a sniper in secondary which is better than AR at range.

As for heavys they are severely underpowered, i killed a heavy with a fully firing gatling gun with a pistol as light today…that shouldnt be possible. Their weapons have ridiculous spread, and it needs to be reduced, i think they also need 20 more hp to be honest. Otherwise there isnt much point in having one, they cant get places and they move slow.

As it is lights are the strongest class for kills, they have superior strafing making them hard to hit and the health difference isnt enough to make much difference. This coupled with the fact that for some reasons the smgs feel alot nicer and more effective when a light carrys them instead of a medium for some reason (anyone else get this feeling?) makes them deadly. I and most decent players i know have no issues taking out any heavy while playing light or medium. They usually go down quicker as its pretty much just a short burst at the head as they cant strafe out of the way.

To sumarise, the ARs and Heavy weps are underpowered, which makes the SMGs look overpowered.

P.s anytime you want to test your theorys laokin, im usually playing on one of the sGs & OCB pub servers(shameless plug), i will happily show you what smgs can do.[/QUOTE]

I’m not wrong about SMG’s. I use the Carb 9, I watch the bullets bounce off armored people and do next to no damage. Load it up.

I also AGREED with you, saying the SMG is ALWAYS gonna be the dominate weapon in this game…

Why? Because this is a QCB game. Once again, it has to be a CQB style game, because they allow you to close distance so fast with the parkour movement. So you suggest AR’s be better at close range than SMG’s? Because that’s what everyone above me is suggesting. If you Buff AR’s they will be buffed for all ranges, since they already have virtually no range damage fall off… so the only way to fix this, would be to make AR’s increased damage at range, and then decrease damage at proximity. This just makes no sense…

Then nobody would use SMG’s at all, and all people would pick is AR’s. (Short of the lights, which would then be at a super disadvantage.)

/logic fail?

AR’s are supplemental to SMG’s. Meaning if you pick an AR, your secondary will be an SMG. This allows you to SMG people close range, and if they escape out of your range, you can switch and realiably finish with the AR. Vice versa. Ar’s do exactly what they are designed to do… some people just want AR’s to beat SMG’s close range, and frankly… that makes no sense.

P.S.

Armor isn’t 10% mitigation. It’s not static acrossed weapon classes… and the effects vary when the base health value fluctuates…it fluctuates via Body Type AND health buff, which there is also the Double Buff, which adds extra variables to the fluctuation of any given players total life pool. (Do to the nature of how percentages work in something we call mathmatics.)

P.P.S.

You also fail at recognizing the purpose of the Heavy weapons. They aren’t for 1v1, they are for weaking GROUPS of people. IN RPG language, it’s an AOE. It weakens an entire tightly knit fireteam, and makes the fireteam focus on the heavy, (who is the hardest to kill) and while they do that, the heavies teamates, are supposed to make the take downs.

You guys don’t know how to play. There. I said it. Flat. Out.

Also, there is no way you beat a heavy head up with a pistol unless he was weakened already, or you had armor and weapon buff and he didn’t, and you weren’t his focus of attention.

Also, if you did… there is another variable for you… Player skill.

Think about it.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO MAKE AR’S MORE USEFUL, and that is to BAN mediums from using SMG’s. Period.

P.P.P.S.

All I see is people complaining(argueably for no reason)… yet nobody offers up any real solutions that make any viable sense… It’s just blanket statements, SMG’s Are OP.

How would you fix the assault rifle without making it better than the SMG?

ALSO

Why would you not use an AR, with the two weapon slots. Why would I pick an AMG and a Pistol as a Medium. Why would I pick 2 SMG’s, as a Medium? That makes, ZERO sense. You have two weapons. 1 for range, 1 for CQB. Pistols are only viable as a light, since their second strength is Melee, which the person who has higher agility will do better anyway.

Oh and I almost forgot. Nothing I spoke about, has been theory. I’ve already loaded up the game, and confirmed everything I have said, when it comes to damage, fall off, and mitigation.

All anybody else is doing, is throwing out failed hypothesis’ without any data to back them up.

Apoc · 2011-05-18 05:24:01 UTC

[quote=Laokin;313531]I’m not wrong about SMG’s. I use the Carb 9, I watch the bullets bounce off armored people and do next to no damage. Load it up.

I also AGREED with you, saying the SMG is ALWAYS gonna be the dominate weapon in this game…

Why? Because this is a QCB game. Once again, it has to be a CQB style game, because they allow you to close distance so fast with the parkour movement. So you suggest AR’s be better at close range than SMG’s? Because that’s what everyone above me is suggesting. If you Buff AR’s they will be buffed for all ranges, since they already have virtually no range damage fall off… so the only way to fix this, would be to make AR’s increased damage at range, and then decrease damage at proximity. This just makes no sense…

Then nobody would use SMG’s at all, and all people would pick is AR’s.

/logic fail?

AR’s are supplemental to SMG’s. Meaning if you pick an AR, your secondary will be an SMG. This allows you to SMG people close range, and if they escape out of your range, you can switch and realiably finish with the AR. Vice versa. Ar’s do exactly what they are designed to do… some people just want AR’s to beat SMG’s close range, and frankly… that makes no sense.

P.S.

Armor isn’t 10% mitigation. It’s not static acrossed weapon classes… and the effects vary when the base health value fluctuates…it fluctuates via Body Type AND health buff, which there is also the Double Buff, which adds extra variables to the fluctuation of any given players total life pool. (Do to the nature of how percentages work in something we call mathmatics.)[/quote]

SO many asumptions so little time…

I havent ever experienced any problems killing any bodytype with any buff with armour on (by that i mean, i never think…dammit i cant do enough damage on this guy! hes got armour…)

Also the AR thing, they need tighter spread, at any range other than close, they require serious burst firing or they are useless…and even then its a wrestling match to stop the mad recoil and huge spread whenever you shoot more than 5 bullets at a time. At the moment, they get beat by smgs close and medium. And at range they lose to snipers, any smg player facing a ranged AR will simply go the other way or throw a grenade/flashbang or get out a sniper. My point is…they have no place. Reduce the recoil and tighten the spread when scoped. Thats the main thing. SMGs dominate because they have nice spread when firing from the hip, ARs could be fixed by giving them less acc when hip firing, and more acc when scoped, thus making them ideal mid/long range weapons, with still an alright spread close.

EnderWiggin.DA · 2011-05-18 05:29:08 UTC

Honestly for me, its AR at medium to long range, SMG for close works out for me. Especially against the light class. I guess it depends on what you consider medium range to be though. So if you want to buff my AR, I’m all for it
Haven’t done the math either with the damage table.
Those are you opinions and I respect that. Shrugs. I’m tired.

peteXnasty · 2011-05-18 05:38:31 UTC

I assumed kevlar did more work behind the scenes than just a 10% damage reduction. To have somethingso simple would be betraying the work in this game. I look forward to whoever writes an in depth analysis of its effects.

I played a heavy tonight with real backup for the first time with the engineer medic spec I pickedfor it and wow. Super tough to take down and near endless heals. I still think the heavy WEAPONS are crap except for the Hjammerdiem, which when buffed is almost unfair at mid to short range. Love it.

Laokin · 2011-05-18 05:39:06 UTC

[QUOTE=Apoc;313542]SO many asumptions so little time…

I havent ever experienced any problems killing any bodytype with any buff with armour on (by that i mean, i never think…dammit i cant do enough damage on this guy! hes got armour…)

Also the AR thing, they need tighter spread, at any range other than close, they require serious burst firing or they are useless…and even then its a wrestling match to stop the mad recoil and huge spread whenever you shoot more than 5 bullets at a time. At the moment, they get beat by smgs close and medium. And at range they lose to snipers, any smg player facing a ranged AR will simply go the other way or throw a grenade/flashbang or get out a sniper. My point is…they have no place. Reduce the recoil and tighten the spread when scoped. Thats the main thing. SMGs dominate because they have nice spread when firing from the hip, ARs could be fixed by giving them less acc when hip firing, and more acc when scoped, thus making them ideal mid/long range weapons, with still an alright spread close.[/QUOTE]

Thing is… the recoil is hardly there. The spread, is well within controlable ranges. The only thing I DO agree with you on, is scoping… because it’s useless… on all weapons… The accuracy buff you gain from being scoped is hardly even noticable(again… on all weapons, minus Sniper) and the movement penalty makes you a sitting duck. When I use AR’s, I don’t scope, ever… I burst from the hip, and always watch it hit the mark, unless I, as in ME, misses. The damage AR’s do over SMG’s is enough to make them beat out SMG’s at middle range. (Read as long range, but still pretty shallow for the sniper.) They have there place as it is… but I wouldn’t be opposed to making the ADS usefull…

Because really… At this point, ADS shouldn’t have even been added to the game… I find aiming down the sights on anything but my Machine Pistol to be completely worthless.

(I think I must clarify, that I am no noob to the competition scene. I won season 1 of Cal in L4D with pSC|, I was Cal-I In CS1.6 with |RoT|, I’ve placed 4th at quakecon a number of years back in the Quake 3 RA Tournament… I’ve beaten Fatal1ty at Quake 4, I’ve MLG’d it up in numerous games, but in L4D our biggest win streak was 42 games, we lost that season to .exe in the playoffs, I used to play Tribes 2 Competetively with {GC} (The Galactic Chickens), we placed modestly, in the top 10 in the seasons I participated in… I’m no noob to gaming, I grew up playing Doom, moved on to Duke3D, then Up to Quake, Then Quake World, then TF(on quake World) Than Half-life, than UT99 and Quake 3 and TFC for srcgold… I honestly, honestly, honestly, have more than most people when it comes to competitive experience… and I’ve played all of SD’s previous games… so for the people who are just “copy pasta” what they hear on the forums, I don’t make assumptions, I don’t care what people say in the forums, I make calculations based on damage Tables to know what is Viable and what isn’t… You people know who you are… so stop it.)

Codine · 2011-05-18 05:39:46 UTC

I agree alot with inferno but there’s obvious flaws with everything.

Let’s wait and see how SD will deal with this game. If they don’t do separate balance patches for pc it’s obvious they really don’t give a damn about balance that much.

Half the **** this game is plagued with stems from console shooters.

I just hope SD releases an SDK so there’s room for modders to make a proper promod.

Laokin · 2011-05-18 05:46:33 UTC

[QUOTE=peteXnasty;313556]I assumed kevlar did more work behind the scenes than just a 10% damage reduction. To have somethingso simple would be betraying the work in this game. I look forward to whoever writes an in depth analysis of its effects.

I played a heavy tonight with real backup for the first time with the engineer medic spec I pickedfor it and wow. Super tough to take down and near endless heals. I still think the heavy WEAPONS are crap except for the Hjammerdiem, which when buffed is almost unfair at mid to short range. Love it.[/QUOTE]

It does. It mitigates differently for different classes of weapons. I.E. Pistols have the most mitigation, AR’s the least… (Not sure about HW… I haven’t got to run the entire gamut on my testing with those yet, frankly because Heavy weapons has never interested me… in any game…)

I’ll see if I can get to the bottom of it, maybe even make a video and post it on youtube with the results… Lemme see what kind of time I have this week, and we’ll see if I can get around to making this… because, after this conversation… it’s absolutely evident that it needs to be done.

Laokin · 2011-05-18 05:53:51 UTC

[QUOTE=Codine;313561]I agree alot with inferno but there’s obvious flaws with everything.

Let’s wait and see how SD will deal with this game. If they don’t do separate balance patches for pc it’s obvious they really don’t give a damn about balance that much.

Half the **** this game is plagued with stems from console shooters.

I just hope SD releases an SDK so there’s room for modders to make a proper promod.[/QUOTE]

Huh?

I don’t see how balance issues are “from consoles.” If there is balance issues, it’s with the core design, and will have ultimately nothing to do with the platforms it’s available for.

Halo has great weapon balance…

I also don’t see how this game is plagued by issues… it’s a fantastic game, and even if the weapon classes were imbalanced, I would hardly call that more than one Issue. The console version on the other hand, has issue with Framerate, Lag, No servers, Padded Aim Assist, etc… etc…

The only complaints with weight or merit so far is the hot button issue on weapon class balance. (Read: the heavy isn’t under powered, but his guns MAY be.)

We don’t have lag, performance issues (unless you’re ATi, but that’s being worked on by SD AND ATi, so… yeah…)

Maybe the only other complaint is the wack ass server browser that doesn’t even have filters… I don’t want empty games showing, I don’t want Stop Watch or Coop Games showing, I’m only interested in Objective mode… and it’s irritating that there is no quick filters to do such… Also, there is no way to specify dedicated server only, and as such… there are some P2P games going, and they actually name their servers which makes it nearly blind luck on joining a dedicated… (Luckily we can sort by ping to help reduce that factor.)

But that is the only “console” problem IMO.

Also, SD has already made PC only patches. So, I think you can be sure that they want their game to be the best it can be on all platforms… but it seems to be PC first.

Also, If I’m not mistaken… I believe there has already been talk about the SDK… sooooooooo yeah.

Seems I was wrong about the filter… but it’s very very very old school, I was expecting something like Valve with tick boxes… but, I stand corrected.

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1894162

Tutorial on configurating filters in brink.

INF3RN0 · 2011-05-18 06:23:52 UTC

Laokin… I don’t know who you are or why you are so strongly inclined to try and convince everyone that you are the only person who understands how balanced the game really is and that we are just too bad to realize it, but I think you made your point and now your done. This thread is speaking both competitive and pub, just that competitive play makes some flaws more noticeable when you have more organization and higher skill. The best teams are going to have light/medium body types with SMGs and beat everything else whether you agree with it or not. I have experimented with a lot of the weapon/body combos and talked with plenty of high skill players/teams that only play one way… because it is, until further balancing, the BEST way.

INF3RN0 · 2011-05-18 06:27:39 UTC

I completely agree with this statement. And instead of nerfing SMGs, I think the other weaponry should simply be buffed; ex. lowering spread on AR to make it a more aim rewarding weapon.

INF3RN0 · 2011-05-18 06:31:40 UTC

[QUOTE=peteXnasty;313514]Headshots need less emphasis to promote weapon balance. I’ve playedgames where they are ruined by insta kill headshots…Metal Gear Online was unplayable to new players unless you taped a dot to your tv to snap an instant headshot. Super frustrating.

I feel like guns need more recoil, unique recoil, and unique damage rather than having a LMG be beaten by someone spraying bullets at shoulder level (which is SOCOM 4 in its current state)

Also a good operative can turn an entire match. Play the class out before talking down on it. By rank three, theybare amazing.[/QUOTE]

Headshots should not be insta kills, but reward more damage for better aim ability (this is of course if weapons have lower spread).
Adding recoil to high damage heavy weapons and having no recoil on base guns works amazingly (see etqw)
What does the operative do exactly? that turns an entire match. Haven’t seen it quite yet.