I don't care what people say - Nader is completely and totally overpowered.

(Ardez1) #41

[quote=“Szakalot;28509”][quote=“Ardez;28458”]I played Nader for the last 2-3 days exclusively and I have to say that she isn’t that overpowered relative to a lot of mercs. I will say that one thing in particular does need a nerf. This may just be a bug fix that needs to happen, but when Nader uses Martydom it doesn’t consume any of her grenade ammo. The description says that she blows her remaining nades to cause an explosion, but this isn’t true.

IMHO, when she uses Martydom it should consume all of her current grenades and create an explosion with radius and damage relative to the number of grenades that went off. This would mean it is strongest at 5 nades and weakest at 1 and not possible to use at 0 nades.

I think that fix/nerf would reduce a lot of the existing rage for Nader. It would also make a lot of Nader players think very hard about pressing that Martyrdom button.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I think martyrdom should be very consistent; it would be very frustrating to learn ‘oh this is the radius at which im safe’ and then die cause she had one more nade in stock. Fine with me to drop one nade from her cooldown for using martyrdom; game can get spammy anyways.[/quote]

That’s a very good point about consistency. I hadn’t thought of that.

I still believe it should consume her entire inventory of nades, but I retract the suggestion to have the damage/radius modified by the quantity of nades on use.

(Pazgabear) #42

[left]After a few “tests” with a friend of mine, we concluded that the radius of martyrdom is very wide; for mercs that have more than 100HP, it’s pretty easy to survive with a long jump or even by sprinting away, not so much for light mercs like Proxy or Aura, even with their speed.
See :
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32753162/2015-06-15_00026.jpg
Nader was approximately at my crosshair position, and I survived the blast with a bit more than the quarter of my health pool, even tough I was more or less at long jump range

It pretty much means that if you’re playing a merc like Proxy or Aura, and you end up bumping on a Nader around a corner, your only “good” option would be to run away beyond your primary’s effective range (unless you’re playing with a SMG loadout) or end up being cheaply revenge killed because you didn’t have enough HP to survive the blast even with a long jump[/left]

(flipTusk) #43

Honestly, if you get killed by naders matrydom once, thats a learning experience. After that, you’re either unlucky, or dumb.

I just played against a Rhino, who after i took half his health down killed me and then a team mate. He decided he wanted to tbag us before he shotgunned us…

You can imagine the end result.

Put simply, she doesn’t need a nerf, you need to adapt.

(Ardez1) #44

[quote=“flipTusk;28568”]Honestly, if you get killed by naders matrydom once, thats a learning experience. After that, you’re either unlucky, or dumb.

I just played against a Rhino, who after i took half his health down killed me and then a team mate. He decided he wanted to tbag us before he shotgunned us…

You can imagine the end result.

Put simply, she doesn’t need a nerf, you need to adapt. [/quote]

She doesn’t need any nerf? Or she doesn’t need a martyrdom nerf?

(flipTusk) #45

Any nerf. I’ve only just bought her and am seriously beginning to appreciate how much skill the launcher needs to land consistant kills. It’s more area denial than a weapon.

And the martyrdom, as I said, only the unlucky and the dumb fall for it after the first time.

(Ardez1) #46

[quote=“flipTusk;28570”]Any nerf. I’ve only just bought her and am seriously beginning to appreciate how much skill the launcher needs to land consistant kills. It’s more area denial than a weapon.

And the martyrdom, as I said, only the unlucky and the dumb fall for it after the first time.[/quote]

That seems a little black and white as far as the unlucky and the dumb comment goes, but I can respect your opinion. I would like to get your thoughts on my earlier post in this thread. Please let me know what you think.

(flipTusk) #47

Truthfully, I have no problem with martyrdom being linked to launcher use. It would certainly persuade new naders not to spam, but there may be a downside. It would give some inconsistancy to the martyrdom.

Right now you down a nader, or see one downed, you know to shot the body from a distance, rather than rush in for the knife, but if it’s now linked to how many nades she has left it becomes a case of ‘will she, wont she’ (sometimes she can martyrdom sometimes she can’t) and that may become more annoying than people seem to find her right now.

As for the black and white, possibly, but I can’t see how it can be anything other than bad luck or idiocy. You drop a nader you know she can do martyrdom, so you shoot her head from a distance, anything else is idiocy. If you round a corner or drop in on the grenade from above then that’s just damned unlucky but not a common enough occurence to warrant a nerf.

My main issue is, I come from BF3/BF4 so i’ve seen how a good game (or in BF4’s case, a poorly made game with a lot of potential) can turn bad by the constant nerf demands.

I really can’t name a single merc that needs a nerf. Not even rhino. You can’t go at a rhino with a lone wolf mentality, this is a team game, you’re gonna have to work together to drop him or get one of you own teams rhino to take him down.

(Pazgabear) #48

[left]I know it’s risky to rush in for a knife finish with Nader, that’s not the problem here
My two problems are :

  1. It’s a cheap kill, most of the kills you do with martyrdom aren’t “earned”, you’re basically rewarded for losing the fight
  2. The fact that Martyrdom is as powerful as Fragger’s grenade

I would be fine with it if Martyrdom’s damage was reduced to 120-130, reducing its potency at range while still retaining some lethality for people standing directly on top of her corpse[/left]

(Ardez1) #49

[quote=“Pazgabear;28596”][left]I know it’s risky to rush in for a knife finish with Nader, that’s not the problem here
My two problems are :

  1. It’s a cheap kill, most of the kills you do with martyrdom aren’t “earned”, you’re basically rewarded for losing the fight
  2. The fact that Martyrdom is as powerful as Fragger’s grenade

I would be fine with it if Martyrdom’s damage was reduced to 120-130, reducing its potency at range while still retaining some lethality for people standing directly on top of her corpse[/left][/quote]

  1. Is another merc earning a kill while NOT risking/sacrificing their own life not as cheap? Nader currently gives up any hope of being revived with her ability, and VERY many times she doesn’t even get a kill or the player she kills gets revived. yet she is guaranteed dead. I just don’t see her martyrdom being as cheap a kill as you say it is. It is probably the most predictable ability in the entire game, as you know exactly when it can happen and you know exactly who can do it.
  2. I don’t believe it is quite as powerful. I think the aoe might be similar, but I have seen fraggers nade gib a lot more than I have seen Martyrdom gib. The only gibs I have seen are if somebody is standing directly on top of her. Do you have the damage numbers to compare the nade martyrdom?
(umberInlet) #50

I think that Nader should consume a nade in order to perform a Martydom, but her nades should take a bit less time to detonate as well imo (w/ Grenade Launcher, not Martydom).

(Pazgabear) #51

[left][quote=“Ardez;28617”]1. Is another merc earning a kill while NOT risking/sacrificing their own life not as cheap? Nader currently gives up any hope of being revived with her ability, and VERY many times she doesn’t even get a kill or the player she kills gets revived. yet she is guaranteed dead. I just don’t see her martyrdom being as cheap a kill as you say it is. It is probably the most predictable ability in the entire game, as you know exactly when it can happen and you know exactly who can do it.
2. I don’t believe it is quite as powerful. I think the aoe might be similar, but I have seen fraggers nade gib a lot more than I have seen Martyrdom gib. The only gibs I have seen are if somebody is standing directly on top of her. Do you have the damage numbers to compare the nade martyrdom?[/quote]

  1. Thing is, that merc you’re talking about probably got his kill BEFORE being downed, and that’s my point here. The only mercs I could see getting kills after being downed would be Skyhammer, Proxy, and Fragger (Thanks to their explosives), but they would still need to throw them before going down (Except Fragger, because he drop his grenade if he’s downed while cooking it IIRC), and even in the case of Fragger, the fuse time of the grenade should be the time remaining before he got downed, giving you much more time to react in most cases (I didn’t test that tough, so I may be wrong). Also the argument “She can’t be revived” is a no-go IMO, she can still check the wave timer to shorten her time waiting for respawn, and it’s not really a good excuse for the raw power it gives to a downed Nader
  2. I admit it was decided “at a glance”, the damage feels similar tough. Even then, Fragger’s grenade gibbing more often than martyrdom is normal to me, Fragger can control the fuse time of his grenade, meaning it’s much easier to make it explode right in the face of enemies, Nader can’t. Still, the fuse time being shorter than a second, you almost need to avoid it at the exact moment you bring her down. In short, Fragger need to cook his grenade and aim it, Nader only needs to press a button once she’s been downed (don’t get me wrong tough, I feel like Fragger’s nade is too powerful too, the fact that he’s “vulnerable” when cooking his grenade doesn’t make up for its raw power either :/).[/left]
(Gi.Am) #52

I’say no to grenade scaling martyrdom. Aside from the inconsistence problems others already pointed out.
Right now the typical Nader playstyle is this. You shoot your grenades, to break up enemies taking some out with directs and otherwise soften them. After you are empty or the fight gets to closeranged you switch to your SMG and start shooting. If you loose the firefight and the enemy doesn’t pay attention or the circumstances allow it. You hit your anti t-bag button.

Now if we scale with nades this situation would get a huge nerf (assuming her nades do normal nader damage instead of the fragger one it does now), because either you have no nades left when you die or one (dealing 75 if someone stands directly on top of it).
This might be fine for the nerf martyrdom crowd, but it means that in standard situations martyrdom will kill and gibb nothing not even if a aura that stands on top of it. The only kills you would get is from people that you damaged in a firefight beforehand (i.e. those that won the fight and try to knife you, incidently the same that feel skrewed over by martyrdom the most already).

But it gets worse. With scaling, martyrdom becomes the most potent when Nader has 5 nades left. That will create a new playstyle the nader troll. People that don’t use the nadelauncher as intended but instead rush into the mids of the enemy forcing them to kill her and then martyrdoming them all with the 5*75 explosion that would ensue.

Patzgabear for 1. You forgot Bushwhacker, Fletcher (stickies survive respawn), Kira / Arty (laser keeps going, bombs still go off if they are already underway) , if we include unreleased mercs it would also add stoker maybe aimee (not sure if her thirdeye survives a respawn is up long enough) and technicaly phoenix (he can selfrevive giving him a second chance to kill you after a botched firefight).

Furthermore Nader can check the wavetimer as much as anyone else, she takes the respawn wave she gets incapicated in. Like everyone else and she can only delay taking that respawn for so long (the game forcefully respawns you after a while).

(Lautréamont) #53

Can you shoot at grenades in flight ? I really think that it’ll be a good nerf to her long range abilities.

(Ghosthree3) #54

I agree no nerf is really required. Also @Ardez I think that tooltip can be safely ignored, perhaps she carries extras for that purpose? Blowing all her remaining grenades would be a nerf.

(Pazgabear) #55

[left]quote="Gi.Am;28720"Patzgabear for (…)[/quote]

Bushwhacker has a turret, they aren’t exactly as lethal as explosives (And are vulnerable when Bushwhacker isn’t there to defend his), Fletcher stickies only deal 90 damage, much less powerful than the ones I mentioned and he would still needs to respawn before triggering them, Arty/Kira need to aim their strikes for them to be effective (It’s pretty rare to kill someone with Arty’s air support as it is, and Kira’s laser isn’t really a killing machine once it doesn’t move around), I won’t talk about unreleased mercs because nobody can say for sure if their abilities work the same as when they were in test, but I would argue that Phoenix can kill someone when he’s down, he can only revive himself, that’s not what I would call an offensive ability per se. It’s not like he’s triggering an explosive rigged to kill everything in a 5m radius, he’s bringing himself on his feet so he can fight again, meaning that if you’re indeed more competent than he is, you will send him back to the dead in the same amount of time he revived himself
That’s not what happens when Nader uses Martyrdom tough, as shown on my screenshot, at long jump range, Martyrdom deals approx. 50 damage, that’s more than half the health of Aura/Sparks/Kira/Proxy, meaning that if you somehow end up in a close range firefight with Nader as one of these mercs, and manage to kill her, she still have a chance to end you even tough YOU were the one to bring her down first, because your best evasive manoeuver can’t even bring you outside of its radius if you were in point blank range when you killed her (which happens much more often than people would like to think)

Also I’m pretty sure you can delay the respawn as much as you want, unless you’re dead and not downed, and you still have to wait for the wave timer to reach 0 (Which is my point here, if she use martyrdom when the timer is at 2 seconds, she only have to wait 2 seconds before going back into the fight)

I’m convinced that Martyrdom should be a tool of dissuasion, and giving it raw power is a good way to make it one, but as it is right now, it’s TOO powerful, to the point that it’s more of a crutch than anything[/left]

(Szakalot) #56

[quote=“Pazgabear;28850”]

I’m convinced that Martyrdom should be a tool of dissuasion, and giving it raw power is a good way to make it one, but as it is right now, it’s TOO powerful, to the point that it’s more of a crutch than anything[/left][/quote]

and what we are arguing that its not too powerful at all, since its trivial to get away in time, and avoid any damage. The only time I ever get hit is when I’m mid-wall-spam and can’t control my landing spot anymore. You can longjump away from a nader’s body you stay on top off and don’t get hit at all. Even easier as a light class, Aura could probably just sprint away, lol

(Pazgabear) #57

[left][quote=“Szakalot;28867”]You can longjump away from a nader’s body you stay on top off and don’t get hit at all. Even easier as a light class, Aura could probably just sprint away, lol[/quote]

No you can’t and no she can’t, I already stated that Martyrdom still deals a bit more than half her health at around long jump range
Of course with mercs with more than 100HP, it’s easy to survive, but light mercs can be blown away from full heath at distance you’d never dream of[/left]

(Ardez1) #58

No you can’t and no she can’t, I already stated that Martyrdom still deals a bit more than half her health at around long jump range
Of course with mercs with more than 100HP, it’s easy to survive, but light mercs can be blown away from full heath at distance you’d never dream of[/left][/quote]

I don’t think you understand the amount of time Szakalot has put into DB. :confused:

(Pazgabear) #59

I guess he’s luckier than me when it comes to get blown away by Nader then D:

(Ghosthree3) #60

I think he’s just more skilled.