yea, there is this misconception that a “promod” has to inherently change the gameplay somehow.
the only things a well made “promod” changes are things that do not work well in high level play. if everything in the “vanilla” game works well in high level play, a “promod” doesn’t have to change anything related to gameplay, just add things like pause, team-lock, spec-lock etc.
like in the case of RTCW MP, everything in the game worked well in high level play, so OSP changed nothing.
[QUOTE=Qhullu;223327]yea, there is this misconception that a “promod” has to inherently change the gameplay somehow.
the only things a well made “promod” changes are things that do not work well in high level play. if everything in the “vanilla” game works well in high level play, a “promod” doesn’t have to change anything related to gameplay, just add things like pause, team-lock, spec-lock etc.
like in the case of RTCW MP, everything in the game worked well in high level play, so OSP changed nothing.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much. Anyone can throw in a server config and play however they like on top of it. If more than 12 people played promod at once, propubs would be using vanilla settings. Sadly the lack of involvement forces everyone to stick to comp configs. I have played with vanilla settings once or twice, on the rare occasion that 16 people were in the server, and it was quite enjoyable.
[QUOTE=Qhullu;223327]
like in the case of RTCW MP, everything in the game worked well in high level play, so OSP changed nothing.[/QUOTE]
sure, it just added silly things like:
oops, aren’t those the things you say are required ?
erm, i’ll translate those for you:
other than netcode, none of them affect gameplay. and are things that i meant with “pause, team-lock, spec-lock etc”
the point being as it relates to this thread: they are things that Splash Damage either implements or doesn’t (probably does), and require no testing/balancing
Seems like mostly conveniences, which is all promod should need to provide. Balance is not a convenience, but a necessity, which is separate from that kind of stuff. Improving the netcode is never a bad thing… and apparently that was the most serious issue for RTCW, but I never played it. Promod should be meant only to be more convenient for comp players, not to correct broken parts of a game.
SD should just do it right this time and release a comp mod with the game, dont wait for someone else to do it first. if brink already has these 'pro’mod cfg settings, etc. no one will have to make one
netcode should be no problem, especially since its 16 player max. if these programmers cant make a proper netcode yet, ill be surprised
[QUOTE=Qhullu;223333]erm, i’ll translate those for you:
other than netcode, none of them affect gameplay. and are things that i meant with “pause, team-lock, spec-lock etc”
the point being as it relates to this thread: they are things that Splash Damage either implements or doesn’t (probably does), and require no testing/balancing[/QUOTE]
no the point is OSP was the comp mod for rtcw, it added the things required for competition, rtcw didn’t have those requirements when released
I think you weren’t understanding their point that adding such comp tools was all that it changed, not that it made much difference or that it degraded the pure game in any way.
Qhullu stated RTCW was already high skill comp ready, I say no, not till OSP added the things required for comp play, like pause, spec lock etc., it also improved netcode which does affect gameplay, especially in competition.
I love mods, I only play ETPro, not Playmod or No Quality because ETPro fixed many bugs and exploits and those just added xp save and a myriad of admin abuse tools and no improvements
but again, the original topic was “let us league players tell you how your game should be made”
I still think that would be stupid
that depends on how you define the word “require”, the way i understand the word, it would be accurate to say something like:
back then those things were a luxury, and in fact there were “high skilled”(for the time period) “vanilla” competitions (LAN and online) before and after OSP was released, with for example quake(1,2,3) “pros” playing (>link< i don’t remember exactly when OSP was first released, i’d guess around july 2002). nowadays they are pretty much a requirement, and should be included in every game on release.
and the netcode wasn’t that bad, it was less than perfect for high ping players, which admittedly was somewhat of a problem back then since many people used an ISDN connection and ADSL was relatively expensive. but the netcode in “vanilla” was just fine for people with low ping (in the 10-100 range and possibly higher, i don’t really remember exactly)
[QUOTE=Nail;223354]Qhullu stated RTCW was already high skill comp ready, I say no, not till OSP added the things required for comp play, like pause, spec lock etc., it also improved netcode which does affect gameplay, especially in competition.
I love mods, I only play ETPro, not Playmod or No Quality because ETPro fixed many bugs and exploits and those just added xp save and a myriad of admin abuse tools and no improvements
[/QUOTE]
The listed add-ons aside from the netcode, which we already said was a separate matter, are not important for pub play. They cater to the special needs of comp play, but the game itself did not require any tweaking from the original parameters. So your essentially playing the exact same game in pure and pro. Now that is a rare example where the promod only needs to add mainly comp specific add-ons. Promods that actually change the game tend to be forced to make such changes because the pure game was flawed and never got patched. The changes are never meant to create a new game or limit the original game, but rather to fix it (like you said with ETPro, and also ETQWPro). If you can distinguish this from server configs meant purely for league play (which is where the “limits” temporarily apply because no one could field a 12v12 format), then you would need to argue that the permanent changes were not necessary. Would a 12v12 in pro without league rule sets be worse or better than a broken vanilla?
[QUOTE=Nail;223354]
but again, the original topic was “let us league players tell you how your game should be made”
I still think that would be stupid[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ZaF;222867]Would splash damage comment on whether or not they would be willing to let top teams from RTCW / ET test the games competative side?
For example, once in beta, could we start playing a few beta clan matches to test out balance issues at high level play? as we all know there is a difference between balance in public servers and balance in high level clan play.[/QUOTE]
I really don’t get the “let us league players tell you how your game should be made” from that post… it appears like he is saying that you have a better chance of uncovering balance issues in a highly organized environment, which is what I get, then I would have to agree. But you don’t need league experience to do that, which is the only reason why there is no reason to give league players priority testing. Sure a lot of league players tend to focus mainly on the balance of the game mechanics, but anyone who cares about such things has as much reason as anyone else. That is why I say no, not because I have a generalized or biased view of the interests of competitive players.
The reasoning behind the request is sound, but as was stated before, high level clans were invited to the previous beta and abused it rather than used it as an opportunity for feedback. Not saying that would happen again, but as they say, fool me twice…
After almost 10 years of competetive UT gaming ive come to the conclusion that letting pro or competetive clans decide too much is a bad or at the very least risky thing to do.
To generalise they seem to be unwilling to try new stuff.
At the end of UT3 there was versions of maps with VERY small changes that left you thinking if it REALLY was necessery or if it was changes made just to feed their images of themselves.
It just left a small community that was fragmented by different UT versions already even more fragmented with different maps and mods.
Im all for devs that listen to the community but some things they need to decide themselves and then stick to it whatever a small but vocal group says.
true enough, there were RTCW tourneys for 3 months before OSP, but imo that just showed the need for OSP
but that’s far in the past, probably before some of the members here were born
my quote “let us league players tell you how your game should be made” was an over reaction to the hoopla that was the QW forums, not the OP. I just reacted to the idea that leagues should be included in beta testing, as stated they were given a chance with the QW beta and totally blew it.
my view is known, I see no need to comment further on the subject
/out
[QUOTE=Wolfmeister;223360]At the end of UT3 there was versions of maps with VERY small changes that left you thinking if it REALLY was necessery or if it was changes made just to feed their images of themselves.
It just left a small community that was fragmented by different UT versions already even more fragmented with different maps and mods.[/QUOTE]
that actually sounds like a good reason to make things as good as possible before release, making creating a mod that makes the game play better as hard as possible, so no one has a reason to abandon the “vanilla” game.
on a related note, i’ve been watching streamed starcraft 2 matches tonight. and while i don’t really play rts games, i find the game very entertaining to watch. i don’t really know much about the game but it seems to me it is an updated version of starcraft with some gameplay changes they are testing in the beta right now. there were something like 10000 people watching the stream (links to VODs here), and i’m pretty sure it will be by far the most succesfull RTS game release in history.
Are you under the impression that they don’t make games as good as possible before release?
it seems that way yes, the reason that happens is probably inadequate time available to polish, play test and balance the game thoroughly, making it necessary to do all that in the months following the release.