HEAVIES are useless

(ruskor) #81

i like heavy with the chinzor MG and Gerund as 2nd. awesome with the right support !
but not always pub friendly so i switch back and forth from heavy to medium.
lately medium is more fun with Gerund and grenade sling with soldier perks :slight_smile:

(jazevec) #82

(Heavy turrets different from Gatlung)
Can I wield a heavy turret, then ? Please ?

(Grr.) #83

[QUOTE=Kazang;319255]Pretty much, but not because they are bad, but because they are not good in all situations.

A heavy cannot get to places a light can, but a heavy can’t really do anything a light cannot except use the heavier guns which also as symptom of the maps don’t offer much of an advantage.
A light can still be a good defensive engineer but just not as effective as a heavy. But a heavy can never be a good offensive operative because the body type is a hard restriction.
A light can do heavy role a little sub-optimally, but a heavy can never do a light role.

This means that using the heavy body type even in it’s best role will be a disadvantage because it becomes a problem later on when it becomes useless, not simply a little bit less effective.
Because of that heavies don’t get used at all by anyone competent. Allow switching and people can choose to use a heavy when it is viable and switch when it is not.

Take TF2 for example, some classes are terrible on some stages on some maps. But this doesn’t matter because you can change class on the fly.
It’s not possible to make maps where every class is able to function 100% perfectly at all times, that would require perfect maps and even the best designers can never achieve that.[/QUOTE]

That’s a completely stupid and counterproductive premise-by-example. Heavy needs to viable to SOME degree in any situation and map design should NEVER enter into it in a “perfect” paradigm. This game is not TF2 nor should it ever be. If you want TF2 mechanics, by all means play TF2.

Either the Heavy need permanent kevlar, reduced knockback and weapons re-tuned, or SD simply needs to get rid of the character. It’s completely wasted effort at this point; and so is all the modeling, artistic, and logistical work than went into the creation of the paradigm in the first place.

With the exception of the EZN, every weapon in the heavy arsenal is literally redundant or outclassed.

The entirety of the type is completely extraneous for the purposes of general gameplay amongst high level players, particularly when time-to-target is just as important as staying power and mobility is far more important than accuracy, by SD’s own mantra.

They literally designed a vehicle that doesn’t follow THEIR philosophy, and it shows.

The heavy needs a from-the-ground up rework, or to be removed, because in the current metagame it has absolutely no purpose. (much like the Operative sans Hacking and the Soldier sans splodies)

Some serious retuning is in order, much more than ET:QW ever needed, much less W:ET

(jazevec) #84

[QUOTE=Kazang;319255]
Take TF2 for example, some classes are terrible on some stages on some maps. But this doesn’t matter because you can change class on the fly.
It’s not possible to make maps where every class is able to function 100% perfectly at all times, that would require perfect maps and even the best designers can never achieve that.[/QUOTE]

You can switch classes, but not body types. So each body type needs to be viable on each map. You don’t expect people to disconnect when a map changes ?
Some may be better on certain map, some worse, but heavy needs to have some value either way. Either that, or just allow switching body type mid-match. I don’t think they’re going to do this because it’s a political decision.

(peteXnasty) #85

I love the heavy and in a group you are unstoppable but the fun factor alone is next to 0. I have to rank up off line or else I ragequit. You are one giant headshot marker for the light bodytype tryhards. And the knocdowns…ugh

The body needs a little boost in the “tank” factor at it’s base that wont affect the buffed status, so you wont be ttally invincible. But when unbuffed the heavy is absolutely worthless with the guns as is.

(tokamak) #86

[QUOTE=Kazang;319255]Pretty much, but not because they are bad, but because they are not good in all situations.

A heavy cannot get to places a light can, but a heavy can’t really do anything a light cannot except use the heavier guns which also as symptom of the maps don’t offer much of an advantage.
A light can still be a good defensive engineer but just not as effective as a heavy. But a heavy can never be a good offensive operative because the body type is a hard restriction.
A light can do heavy role a little sub-optimally, but a heavy can never do a light role.

This means that using the heavy body type even in it’s best role will be a disadvantage because it becomes a problem later on when it becomes useless, not simply a little bit less effective.
Because of that heavies don’t get used at all by anyone competent. Allow switching and people can choose to use a heavy when it is viable and switch when it is not.

Take TF2 for example, some classes are terrible on some stages on some maps. But this doesn’t matter because you can change class on the fly.
It’s not possible to make maps where every class is able to function 100% perfectly at all times, that would require perfect maps and even the best designers can never achieve that.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly why I think SD overestimated the power of the heavy weapons. Heavies shouldn’t just be more effective in holding certain spots than light (and even that’s disputable) they should be able to do thing with their weapons that no other bodytype can. Right now they balanced all the weapons on each other, a Kross and a Maximus have an equal chance of winning a fight and that’s just messed up.

The SMG damage is okay, AR may be tuned up a bit to my taste but when you notice a heavy weapon pointed at you you better should take cover. Going for a stand-off with the good chance of eliminating the threat with a few headshots should NOT be an option. A heavy weapon pointed at you means trouble. This worked in ET with the panzer, the flamer and best of all the MG40, this worked in QW with the RPD and the Hyperblaster. Heavy weapons ought to be scary, not equal to other weapons.

A heavy has limited freedom on in the map, at least let him OWN the places he gets to.

(Kazang) #87

[QUOTE=jazevec;319407]You can switch classes, but not body types. So each body type needs to be viable on each map. You don’t expect people to disconnect when a map changes ?
Some may be better on certain map, some worse, but heavy needs to have some value either way. Either that, or just allow switching body type mid-match. I don’t think they’re going to do this because it’s a political decision.[/QUOTE]

No I don’t that’s my entire point… The body type is essentially a class modifier, there are 4x3 number of classes in reality because a Heavy functions so vastly different to a light.

But due to arbitrary separation of the body type away from the “class” it just ends up being a wasted or dumb feature where people can’t take advantage of the body type without gimping themselves for large parts of the game for a minor bonus in others.

(iFork) #88

So I’ve been playing a pure heavy engineer and managed to level him up to 20 and what seems to strike me are…

  1. The extra health is minuscule and after the 4th or 5th health buff it just gets halved which is just silly, the only survivability the extra health gives the heavy is prob the ability to tank 2-4 more AR rounds.

  2. You lunge your heavy weapon across half the map only to get instantly killed by a light wielding a carb-9 smg. Really? Even in a 1 on 1 a light can still kill my heavy chinzor with the carb-9 from mid range.

But then again… a double weapon buffed semi-firing heavy chinzor is pretty devastating and the EZ nade launcher is pretty fun to use but not as effective as the lobster.

(tokamak) #89

Any weapon with double weapon buff is devastating.

(TeoH) #90

Everyone in this thread really needs to drop the premise that just because you’re using a heavy body type you must also wield a heavy weapon. Everyone can use a Carb-9, and the carb is the best mobile runabout close>mid range weapon.

The advantage that the medium and heavy body types have is a) health, and b) that rather than offhanding a borderline useless pistol they can use their other weapon slot to fill some form of utility. For the medium that means you can primary an AR or FRKN/roksteady which makes you very effective at a distance, and still run around with a carb out on your secondary slot. For the heavy that means you have access to ‘area denial’ weapons that can spam a choke point, and still have a carb or AR as your main weapon.

Don’t assume that your primary weapon should be your ‘primary weapon’.

(tokamak) #91

:stroggbanana:

(TeoH) #92

Dancing red eyed strogg banana

Is that good or bad?

(Senethro) #93

Heavies shouldn’t be buffed because the game is defending team biased. Unless Heavies can be buffed in such a way that they favour the attacking team, they should be left alone. Increasing their killing power or ability to stay in a spot will just make more holds for defense.

(tokamak) #94

[QUOTE=TeoH;319660]Dancing red eyed strogg banana

Is that good or bad?[/QUOTE]

I think you made an EXCELLENT point.

What kind of tripe reasoning is that? Even if heavies were the reason the defense has it so easy then that would be all the more reason to balance them and make them viable for more roles than just that.

(Senethro) #95

They’re not the reason defense has it easy because they’re currently terrible, but if they were made viable it would be most likely that they would perform better on defense than offense, leading to even more static games.

(tokamak) #96

The defense/offense balance is something that needs to be balanced on it’s own. Right now the bodytypes are unbalanced. A bodytype needs to be viable in both defense and offense as you can’t switch for each map.

Trying to balance d/o within the body type differences is both highly ineffective as well as riddled with detrimental side-effects, it will only make the problem bigger.

(xXHugDangerXx) #97

“the macron is pleased”

(Senethro) #98

Huh, how about that. Disadvantages in design and issues in balance that arose from not being able to choose bodytype in game. Never saw that one coming.

Brink is a functional enough game with just Lights/Meds. Breaking the game to fix heavies doesn’t seem worth it. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Heavies are in their current state due to being too good on defense.

(tokamak) #99

Nonsense, it’s the body types that need to be balanced on each other, the lack of choice is not the problem.

(Ashog) #100

I have to agree that heavies are utterly useless. If you think theat they are not, then you are making up illusions for yourself. Heavies are so freaking slow that it takes almost a minute to get to the frontline. Then you die (well to be fair, 0.3 seconds later than a normal bodytype would). And the heavy MG guns are currently a joke, even with all upgrades. the only chance to kill smb with them before dying is to catch someone unawares around the corner and unload 50 bullets from a distance of 2 m. And the heavy operative is probably the most useless guy in the whole bunch of choices. Simply -1 player in team.