HEAVIES are useless

(tokamak) #61

That should idea should be even stronger. At least as a light you have the option of not coming up against a heavy while a heavy has no such choice. That’s the biggest strength of a light, he can always engage on his own terms.

(raib) #62

Knockdown on miniguns might be too much. How about knockback instead?

(tokamak) #63

A knockback could even be more powerful, after all, you can only knock-down someone once while you can knock-back someone repeatedly.

It doesn’t need to be one-hit knock-downs either. It could be after any number of hits depending on what’s balanced. The rate of fire and damage of the minigun can also be tuned down to make it even more of a crowd-control weapon.

My point is that it’s fire needs to be scary, not deadly. That’s the appropriate role of the minigun, to deny space to the enemy, not to kill people, hell, knocking them down isn’t even the point, it’s just supposed to be a big implicit threat. People really do not want to walk into it’s fire, not because they might die, but because of another reason, in this case a knock-down.

I also think knock-downs don’t happen yet enough anyway. I love the mechanic, it gives a really interesting and dramatic edge to shoot-outs without being over-powered.

(jazevec) #64

It would knock people away from the weapon’s effective range. Which isn’t too impressive already.

(jazevec) #65

Heavy turrets use the Gatlung, right ? Does it mean they’re as poor as the heavy’s weapon ?

(blargo) #66

ManGiraffeDog, a horrible marauding godless killing machine, is coming to destroy humanity. I’ve come to warn you to RUN AWAY and save yourselves. Here’s what it looks like so you can be prepared:

I’m super serial.

(tokamak) #67

They seem to be completely different.

(GeneralGideonx) #68

I was thinking if knockdown or push back is considered too OP for some people for heavy weapons, what if they were to add in aim flinching. IE if a heavy weapon hits you it knocks your aim off in random directions ( you can still fire the gun but would have to fight your aim). That way the Heavy weapons do not need accuracy or damage boots, if enemies where to charge right at a heavy firing on them every bullet that hits would mess up there aim and they would have to correct, this would fix the issue where med/lights could just charge right at you and still win, since they no longer could just hit you scott free without having to fight against constant flinching (needs to effect hip fire of the SMGs). This would also make Heavys very good for locking down areas and work really well in teams since enemies would have a hard time aiming and hitting targets when under heavy fire. This still would not make them killing machines but it would make them effect enough that people would have to flank heavy rather then face head on and would make Heavys much more valuable for the team and it makes sense that if got hit by a big heavy round it would mess up your guys aim.

-Just a thought.

(tokamak) #69

A minigun could also start firing phosphorus shells giving a mild (accumulating) flashbang effect for anyone who sees or gets hit by the impact.

(wolfnemesis75) #70

I use Heavy Soldier and I am a killing machine beast. I racked up 14k on Resort with a low level Heavy Soldier.

(Tear 08) #71

I beg to differ, I have a Heavy Soldier using the Chinzor MG, and it’s damn near unstoppable assuming I have the right cover to fall back to…the trick is to not endlessly exhaust the ammo, burst fire it, not quite as short of a burst as you’d use with an Assault Rifle, but it definitely tears through Enemies…'specially if you’re using the right Abilities, like Armour Plating and Armour Piercing Bullets…

(Glyph) #72

[QUOTE=GeneralGideonx;319007]I was thinking if knockdown or push back is considered too OP for some people for heavy weapons, what if they were to add in aim flinching. IE if a heavy weapon hits you it knocks your aim off in random directions ( you can still fire the gun but would have to fight your aim). That way the Heavy weapons do not need accuracy or damage boots, if enemies where to charge right at a heavy firing on them every bullet that hits would mess up there aim and they would have to correct, this would fix the issue where med/lights could just charge right at you and still win, since they no longer could just hit you scott free without having to fight against constant flinching (needs to effect hip fire of the SMGs). This would also make Heavys very good for locking down areas and work really well in teams since enemies would have a hard time aiming and hitting targets when under heavy fire. This still would not make them killing machines but it would make them effect enough that people would have to flank heavy rather then face head on and would make Heavys much more valuable for the team and it makes sense that if got hit by a big heavy round it would mess up your guys aim.

-Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea as it maintains the importance of knockdowns in other weapons and ways but also allows the Heavy’s ballistic weapons to fulfill an additional role in combat. A Light can still easily sneak up on a heavy and decimate them but they would no longer be able to take them in a straight-up fight (well, it would be possible just rather unlikely). Of course this extra flinch would have to be limited to the Heavy’s Gotlung, Chinzor and Maximus so a Heavy using an AR or SMG would get no additional benefit.

EDIT: As for everyone saying that the Heavy is a killing machine, stop playing against the bots.

(tokamak) #73

No matter how you dress it up, heavy weapons STILL have the same damage output as AR’s so the only difference is lower accuracy, lower stability and a higher clip size.

(Kazang) #74

Heavies make good engineers, the extra hp helps a ton when trying to defuse bombs/repair and gives more time for medics to get heals off on you.

I don’t think the problem is heavies but the fact you can’t change body type in game. Some maps and stages are just really unfriendly to the heavy body type, others are great for it. But this is always going to be case.

The maps are designed around frequently changing class and body type but the class/body type mechanic isn’t, which is the core of the problem.
So until you can change class (a unspeced class is useless which is the problem here) and body type in game the most all round type will be the only one worth using, which is light medic/soldier. Others types and roles are niche and useless on some stages.

(Baumbo) #75

I think that the damage being the same damage as ARs and whatnot is fine, but that the added benefit of a heavy weapon should be sustained accurate fire. Just tone back the spread increase of the minigun, and the giant kick of the chinzor.

As for knockdowns/flinches/blinds those are abusable with multiple heavys on the field. I don’t want to have two heavy guys waddling around spraying out knockdowns. Imagine what capable teams would do with that.

(tokamak) #76

You’re actually saying that the problem with heavies is that you can’t stop being them…

As for knockdowns/flinches/blinds those are abusable with multiple heavys on the field. I don’t want to have two heavy guys waddling around spraying out knockdowns. Imagine what capable teams would do with that.

Again, there are all kinds of constraints you can throw on these effects to make them less powerful. Especially if you tune their damage down then you end up with two guys who just knocked everyone over but can’t deal any damage and end up getting shot by payers lying prone and firing away at them.

It’s not any more abusable than two heavies with EZ nade launchers, or an entire team throwing flashbangs around. It’s just a method that encourages team-work.

(Baumbo) #77

[QUOTE=tokamak;319170]You’re actually saying that the problem with heavies is that you can’t stop being them…
[/QUOTE]

I propose a fat-suit that take on and off at the command post, and we just remove heavies from the game. Oh and we replace all heavy guns with the Carb-9.

Flashbangs require supply and EZnades do not knockdown.

(GeneralGideonx) #78

[QUOTE=Baumbo;319169]I think that the damage being the same damage as ARs and whatnot is fine, but that the added benefit of a heavy weapon should be sustained accurate fire. Just tone back the spread increase of the minigun, and the giant kick of the chinzor.

As for knockdowns/flinches/blinds those are abusable with multiple heavys on the field. I don’t want to have two heavy guys waddling around spraying out knockdowns. Imagine what capable teams would do with that.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about knock downs/back but flinching aim has been in COD and other games for a long time and every gun causes it and no one cries foul there you can still shoot its just a lot more difficult it would mainly just stop forward facing rushers ( or make it at least much more difficult). Heavies could still easily be flanked and killed they are very slow moving targets after all or sniped the guns would be no more accurate and the gatling gun at long range would not have a prayer of hitting a sniper. It would just be something to make Heavy weapons stand out and worth using, since SMGs and ARs out perform them at the moment.

(DazTroyer) #79

The best thing about the heavies is seeing them trying to climb up a simple ledge and giving up. All i can think is, lose some weight ya fat bar steward… :tongue:

(Kazang) #80

[QUOTE=tokamak;319170]You’re actually saying that the problem with heavies is that you can’t stop being them…
[/QUOTE]
Pretty much, but not because they are bad, but because they are not good in all situations.

A heavy cannot get to places a light can, but a heavy can’t really do anything a light cannot except use the heavier guns which also as symptom of the maps don’t offer much of an advantage.
A light can still be a good defensive engineer but just not as effective as a heavy. But a heavy can never be a good offensive operative because the body type is a hard restriction.
A light can do heavy role a little sub-optimally, but a heavy can never do a light role.

This means that using the heavy body type even in it’s best role will be a disadvantage because it becomes a problem later on when it becomes useless, not simply a little bit less effective.
Because of that heavies don’t get used at all by anyone competent. Allow switching and people can choose to use a heavy when it is viable and switch when it is not.

Take TF2 for example, some classes are terrible on some stages on some maps. But this doesn’t matter because you can change class on the fly.
It’s not possible to make maps where every class is able to function 100% perfectly at all times, that would require perfect maps and even the best designers can never achieve that.