HEAVIES are useless

(RaKeD) #41

[QUOTE=GeneralGideonx;318046]I have to agree with this post. I have played heavy’s with two separate characters up to level 20. I’m not saying you can’t do well with a heavy, I’ve done very well with them as would be the case for any good player; however, the problem is I can do better if I don’t play a heavy, in every roll and position on the team a Med/Light body can do the job better than a heavy, just a simple fact, and the heavy weapons are out performed by SMGs and ARs.

If you break down the pros and cons to play a heavy its easy to see the unblance.

Pros:

[ol]
[li]60 extra health over a light (.2 sec under fire or 1-4 extra bullets max). Before you say the numbers are incorrect please take the time to view the wiki or strategy guild for weapon damage and fire rates (most guns can at least shoot 10 rounds a second and the worst damage per bullet is 18).[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the largest ammo count (with the right SMG they really don’t have much more and when considering the accuracy issues Heavy weapons have it takes 3 times as many rounds to kill a person as it does with an accurate weapons, so really your killing power is no better Heavy’s just use more bullets to do the same job).[/li][/ol]
Cons:

[ol]
[li]Largest Hit Box of all bodys (this quickly counteracts the very little extra HP you have)[/li][li]Slowest Movement (not only does this effect the time it takes to get places it makes you a huge slow target and very hard to dodge bullets, head shot by SMG anyone…)[/li][li]No, wall hop or Mantle (you can’t follow your team mates through nice paths you have to lumber around through the more dangerous roots and this also compound how long it takes to get from point A to B)[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the longest reload times[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the longest equip times[/li][li]Heavy weapons effective kill range is only short (Expection Maximus)[/li][li]Heavy weapons have horrible recoil[/li][li]Heavy weapons have horrible accuracy (in the case of the Gotlung the worset accuracy in the game)[/li][li]If using the Gotlung you have an additional wait time to fire as it spins up, and if you keep it spinning your movement speed goes down to virtually nothing.[/li][/ol]

I’ve read people saying that Heavy weapons are great for controlling an area if you know what you are doing that is really not true. You need high damage and decent range for area denial, the Heavy guns are too inaccurate to lock areas down because they cant’ kill worth crap at med to long range, ARs and SMG once again are better at this.

If you want to take the path by using the Maxiumus instead it does have decent range and accuracy however, it shoots weak little bullets its DPS is only 300 and the CARB-9 with slightly less ammo does 345DPS and it has better stability by far. Then you have the Euston that does 400DPS and is better on everything but ammo. So why would I use any Heavy weapon when between SMGs and ARs I can strait up get better guns?

Don’t get me wrong I love the Heavy (or at least the idea of it). I have had the most fun with the Gotlung it really only works on easy bots and is not effective in MP but darn it I had fun, I just wish I could use it and be really effective, and the only place it does work are very short tight hallways for crowed killing; however an SMG can still pop around the corner and kill you first.

You can tell in games when there is heavy unbalance if there is 1 gun or body type everyone uses… (CARB-9 and light) MP is full of those and for good reason they work good for everything and they do it well.

I just hope SD reads these things and makes some tweaks (More HP or Damage, or Accuracy) so I can go back to my favorite body type and still feel as useful with that as a Med/Light bodies.[/QUOTE]

Great post man! Love it.

Check this thread and drop your opinion.It s always great to discuss with people who know about the game mechanics:

http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27005

(fearlessfox) #42

Every single time a heavy gets the drop on my medium soldier with Euston and Carb9 combo, I turn round at a leisurely pace and beat them down with minimum effort.

They need buff, imo.

(tokamak) #43

The minigun in this game is supposed to be a support weapon used for suppressive fire. I’m okay if it doesn’t do a lot of damage, I’m even okay if it starts doing less damage, as long as there’s a reason for players to stay the hell out of it’s fire.

That’s why I’d really want SD to look into giving the minigun a knock-down effect. That means you wouldn’t be able to go on a solo-killing spree, downed players would just shoot you while prone. But when used in close connection with the rest of the team it will be really useful.

The damage and rate of fire can be really tuned down if that were to happen. It would be a really interesting and scary gun.

(WallWeasels) #44

I didn’t know there were weapons outside of SMGs. Only non-SMG weapon I use is the Gerund :confused: But most of this game is under 1 second combats of hold-down-mouse1 SMG combat.

I would be interested to see how weapon balance would work out if HP was about 50~100% higher in general. That would put heavies at 360, compared to a lights 240 (medium 280). But that would just push weapons to using drum-ammo just to kill a single person :stuck_out_tongue:

This is not an issue of Heavies alone, this is just a general issue of weapon damage and imbalance. I basically agree entirely with the thread linked above

(tokamak) #45

I think headshots are the heavies biggest weakness. Players can trust on the heavy guys moving very little if at all and that makes it more profitable to go for headshots rather than having to aim at the full body of an agile medium or light guy (or risk missing everything).

(Baumbo) #46

I just went and played a few games with the minigun to see how bad it was, and to my surprise the minigun was better than I expected. I feel like now that I have a firm grasp of the maps, and where cover is I can use the minigun better. I think people should go play a few games as a heavy with a minigun and see whats what.

I played a soldier with the kevlar vest though, so that probably helped in me staying alive though.

(BassAddict) #47

I was watching the Brink TV tournament the other day, and out all the games I saw, not a single player was using the heavy body type. There doesn’t seem to be any room for the heavy in competitive play unless they fix some balance issues. I think if they simply gave the heavy weapons a modest accuracy boost, things would be different.

(Shadowcat) #48

According to weapon stats, the Chinzor has the same fire rate of the Gotlung, better accuracy, and 3 times the damage per shot; it also doesn’t require spin up. The only advantage the Gotlung has is a smaller max spread (I think).

I see no reason to ever use the Gotlung beyond feeling badass.

(PillowTalk) #49

I play light, and I agree that heavies suck.

I take them out no problem, just standing still and aiming for their head. By the time their gun actually starts shooting? They’re dead. If they had managed to get it shooting before hand? Doesn’t hurt me. Feels like being tickled.

A 10% hp increase does not counter-act the slow speed and inability to vault over objects as high as a medium body type can, and since their weapons suck, I would have to agree that there really is no point to playing the heavy class, unless you like to die a lot and go really slow.

(Je T´aime) #50

The best way to tell whats the overall best bodytype is looking at what clans use, and you never see heavys, you just see thin dudes with light smgs 24/7, probably because those are the best.

(Rogo_Pro_Venia) #51

[QUOTE=GeneralGideonx;318046]I have to agree with this post. I have played heavy’s with two separate characters up to level 20. I’m not saying you can’t do well with a heavy, I’ve done very well with them as would be the case for any good player; however, the problem is I can do better if I don’t play a heavy, in every roll and position on the team a Med/Light body can do the job better than a heavy, just a simple fact, and the heavy weapons are out performed by SMGs and ARs.

If you break down the pros and cons to play a heavy its easy to see the unblance.

Pros:

[ol]
[li]60 extra health over a light (.2 sec under fire or 1-4 extra bullets max). Before you say the numbers are incorrect please take the time to view the wiki or strategy guild for weapon damage and fire rates (most guns can at least shoot 10 rounds a second and the worst damage per bullet is 18).
[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the largest ammo count (with the right SMG they really don’t have much more and when considering the accuracy issues Heavy weapons have it takes 3 times as many rounds to kill a person as it does with an accurate weapons, so really your killing power is no better Heavy’s just use more bullets to do the same job).
[/li][/ol]
Cons:

[ol]
[li]Largest Hit Box of all bodys (this quickly counteracts the very little extra HP you have)
[/li][li]Slowest Movement (not only does this effect the time it takes to get places it makes you a huge slow target and very hard to dodge bullets, head shot by SMG anyone…)
[/li][li]No, wall hop or Mantle (you can’t follow your team mates through nice paths you have to lumber around through the more dangerous roots and this also compound how long it takes to get from point A to B)
[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the longest reload times
[/li][li]Heavy weapons have the longest equip times
[/li][li]Heavy weapons effective kill range is only short (Expection Maximus)
[/li][li]Heavy weapons have horrible recoil
[/li][li]Heavy weapons have horrible accuracy (in the case of the Gotlung the worset accuracy in the game)
[/li][li]If using the Gotlung you have an additional wait time to fire as it spins up, and if you keep it spinning your movement speed goes down to virtually nothing.
[/li][/ol]

I’ve read people saying that Heavy weapons are great for controlling an area if you know what you are doing that is really not true. You need high damage and decent range for area denial, the Heavy guns are too inaccurate to lock areas down because they cant’ kill worth crap at med to long range, ARs and SMG once again are better at this.

If you want to take the path by using the Maxiumus instead it does have decent range and accuracy however, it shoots weak little bullets its DPS is only 300 and the CARB-9 with slightly less ammo does 345DPS and it has better stability by far. Then you have the Euston that does 400DPS and is better on everything but ammo. So why would I use any Heavy weapon when between SMGs and ARs I can strait up get better guns?

Don’t get me wrong I love the Heavy (or at least the idea of it). I have had the most fun with the Gotlung it really only works on easy bots and is not effective in MP but darn it I had fun, I just wish I could use it and be really effective, and the only place it does work are very short tight hallways for crowed killing; however an SMG can still pop around the corner and kill you first.

You can tell in games when there is heavy unbalance if there is 1 gun or body type everyone uses… (CARB-9 and light) MP is full of those and for good reason they work good for everything and they do it well.

I just hope SD reads these things and makes some tweaks (More HP or Damage, or Accuracy) so I can go back to my favorite body type and still feel as useful with that as a Med/Light bodies.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with the Heavy weapons needing some accuracy, I’m not sure the rest of these flaws are issues with the guns. I’d actually put forward that there isn’t ENOUGH diversity in the body type. On a completely PERSONAL perspective, I’d like to see …

Light Body Type:
Wall running short distances (ie hit a wall at take 2-3 steps along the wall)
2-3 jumps off a wall (ie down a corridor, I’ve been trying to do this all day)
Longer slide (is it already?)

Medium Body Type:
Kinda like them the way they are to be honest.
More health …

Heavy Body Type:
2 shots to the head for a head shot if at full health (gasp!!)
Far more health. I want heavy’s to be real solid area denial.
Longer melee knockdown times. If you get that close to a heavy, you deserve it.
Longer slide knockdown times. I don’t know if you’ve been slide tackled by a big man, I have. It hurts.
Right mouse on the gattling gun (chinsor?) would be nice if it DRASTICALLY increased accuracy but prevented the heavy from running. That would mean a heavy that was walking through a corridor could easily deny an area.
General accuracy increase on all weapons.

They need to be something to work with. (just my opinion)

(GeneralGideonx) #52

[QUOTE=Rogo_Pro_Venia;318316]While I agree with the Heavy weapons needing some accuracy, I’m not sure the rest of these flaws are issues with the guns. I’d actually put forward that there isn’t ENOUGH diversity in the body type. On a completely PERSONAL perspective, I’d like to see …

Light Body Type:
Wall running short distances (ie hit a wall at take 2-3 steps along the wall)
2-3 jumps off a wall (ie down a corridor, I’ve been trying to do this all day)
Longer slide (is it already?)

Medium Body Type:
Kinda like them the way they are to be honest.
More health …

Heavy Body Type:
2 shots to the head for a head shot if at full health (gasp!!)
Far more health. I want heavy’s to be real solid area denial.
Longer melee knockdown times. If you get that close to a heavy, you deserve it.
Longer slide knockdown times. I don’t know if you’ve been slide tackled by a big man, I have. It hurts.
Right mouse on the gattling gun (chinsor?) would be nice if it DRASTICALLY increased accuracy but prevented the heavy from running. That would mean a heavy that was walking through a corridor could easily deny an area.
General accuracy increase on all weapons.

They need to be something to work with. (just my opinion)[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying they are flaws and should be changed I was simply pointing out that they are draw backs to using a heavy body and a heavy weapon. All I would really need to go back to playing a heavy is a better COF which would be a serious accuracy increase for the heavy weapons and the gating gun needs it the most. But if the heavy got a decent health boot that would be great. In any case some changes need to be made to make things more balanced. If the heavy were any good you would see a lot more players with heavys and as it is there are almost non in MP.

(THEJORRRG) #53

NO they aren’t.
They are the best for any objective. They give you a much larger amount of time to react, and when carrying the Hjammerdiem Shotgun, you can clear out an area in no time and continue with your objective.

Hjammerdiem primary
+
Lobster/Euston secondary

Unstoppable.

Just don’t forget to buff everyone, including yourself, and stick with team mates and you will be a tank.

(PillowTalk) #54

[QUOTE=THEJORRRG;318434]NO they aren’t.
They are the best for any objective. They give you a much larger amount of time to react, and when carrying the Hjammerdiem Shotgun, you can clear out an area in no time and continue with your objective.

Hjammerdiem primary
+
Lobster/Euston secondary

Unstoppable.

Just don’t forget to buff everyone, including yourself, and stick with team mates and you will be a tank.[/QUOTE]

My light body type with a Galactic SMG says otherwise. That 60 more HP you have over me ain’t ****. And while you’re spamming your grenades, I’ll be flying around jumping off walls and sliding into your fat ass.

(THEJORRRG) #55

:rolleyes:
Ok, where in my post did it say I was squaring up for a challenge? The OP posted a question, I responded. I wasn’t saying “I could totally take you, brah.”, I was just saying how I have made the Heavy body type successful for me.

(rumblylizard) #56

Against the AI, heavies are great. Mainly because the AI never really focus on you too much when you are completing objectives. I also quite like using a heavy for an engineer as the health buff allows you to set up turrets in dangerous areas.

However, I agree that they need a buff. I tend to use a heavy for suppressing fire - i.e. keep a main pathway locked down using the Gotlung. If people do walk into the area, it tends to kill them pretty quickly as well - especially when you modify the gun to have a 200 bullet capacity. You can hold a pathway easily by keeping the gun spinning and just waiting for people to walk into you.

Unfortunately though, once humans start playing and go around you, these tactics become less useful

(pinion120) #57

Heavies are quite powerful when played to their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses.

Ambush around corners, control your environment, never be alone. Slide works well even as a heavy for evasion purposes, those of you who claim to die so easily should slide slide slippidy slide…:stroggtapir:

(Kurnuttaja) #58

In TF2 minigun pushes you back if you try to approach in front and you would probably be dead before you reach the heavy. But in Brink you can rush towards a minigun, knock the heavy down and kill him when he does not have the MG spun up. That really suks for heavy when ppl learn to use it.

(tokamak) #59

Yeah, TF2 weapons have a lot of buffs and debuffs. Brink has it’s own home-made effect, the knock-down. That’s why I’d love to see the minigun have a knock-down effect.

(Sheza) #60

I totally disagree.
I hate it when I come up against a Heavy. They tank more then a clip and kill me really fast.