Grenade Binds

[BioSnark]

I still use the arrow keys quite often. It’s how I learned how to play PC games, and it’s how I used to play exclusively…Arrow keys and trackball. I am actually fairly new to using WASD for shooters.

When he said arrow keys I was thinking of Doom II and aiming using arrow keys. Ah, good times…

[brbrbr]

i think its good to have both ways[and even introduce third one]of loadout workways
but its necessary to make sure any of them not give [dramatically serious]advantage over each others, players, ingame.
and back to Personal opinions, i think ETQW style better “in general”, so yes “off-hand nades are simplier” ©, sure. and what more important, its not only one advantage.

[Senyin]

[QUOTE=Senethro;210555]You been missing the point.

Thats the point. Its a done thing. Putting time into it now would just hurt the rest.

But thats not enough for the weaponbankers who went on to make Rahdo feel bad over having somehow not having been fair to PC gamers just because a tiny number of people don’t want to use a better control system.

The arrow keys players gave up or at least went quiet when their time came and now the weaponbankers should too.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and the WASD guys should too since that is obsolete as well.

[Senethro]

Yeah and the WASD guys should too since that is obsolete as well.

Technically yes, but the benefit of going to ESDF is minimal with the trend of games improving their control systems. ESDF was only necessary before voicechat and you needed more buttons for important chatbinds. In ETQW I’d bound the entire left side of my keyboard up to the 8/I/K/M letters but never felt limited by WASD because all combat related keys were in reach while keeping my hand stationary. Theres no shortage of keyboard buttons but sometimes I feel that 6 buttons on a mouse is a bit limiting.

[Ryan]

Sorry for that post folks, I didn’t think how it would look! But after three pages of actually trying to discuss and offer evidence usually even Basiley will have acknowledged some of your points instead of dismissing them all with a weak “Well… thats just like… your opinion man”

Evidence?

All I have seen is:

“Weaponbank is more buttons to press” and “auto-prime is easier”. (<-- blow me away man, that’s a solid argument)

How can this be considered as evidence?
But whatever…

I am ready to move on, and you should asswell.
The way I prefer is having a weaponbank, (as most people in this thread do) so stop saying it’s shit.

Peace,
Ryan

[Shiv]

I hope this is clear enough for everyone, and trying to reduce this stupid bias thats been created thanks to false information and ignorance.

Weapon bank cons -
Have to select the correct weapon first instead of it being available
Swap out times (animation and user selection)
Selecting the wrong weapon and screwing up (aka, throwing a grenade when you meant to heal someone)
if you per weapon bind still means many buttons used (single press)
harder to shoot grenades out of the sky (if weapon bank doesnt auto swap back to gun)

Quick Select cons-
Required to hold down a specific button to prime grenade and shorten fuse.
potential loss of movement aiming ability while button is held (i dont lose aim or movement ability…)
requires a permanent bind, unlike weapon bank one button does not scroll through multiple weapons.
its new fangled and people dont like change.

oldschool double tap cons-
have to remember to tap button again to throw grenade after priming
requires dedicated button specific to grenades.
not newbie friendly
potentially get confused and throw a second grenade/fumble shooting the grenade out the air.

Weapon bank pros-
Its the current standard for many players here
reduced loss in movement ability as button holding is not required
all weapons are in 1 location (aka, down the side in etqw)
used to quickly see how much ammo/many guns you have
allows mouse1 to be the primary/only “use in hand item” button
adds anticipation layer to gameplay
potentially less ui clutter.

Quick select pros-
Its the current standard for many modern games (cod series + bc2)
Faster than weapon bank
More accurate weapon selection - you press the button and you know its going to prime a grenade.
easier for newbies, less times caught out as they accidently fumble and grab the grenade/are walking around with the grenade.
Makes shooting grenades in mid flight easier (if weapon bank doesnt auto swap back which i expect it to)
better able to deal with changing battle conditions. (less anticipation required, which some people want)

Oldschool doubletap pros-
its oldschool, retro is the current cool.
retain movement ability as each tap is fast.
aim shouldnt be effected by quick button taps either.
faster than weapon bank
it was the choice of many pro players in the old days (it must be doing something right)

No doubt i missed some, bias is always going to occur even if not intended, allot are opinion based. Please mention the missing bits.

There are your reasons Ryan.

Insert opionion here >
Everyone has to remember Rhado is not likely to have thought of using the single button because he is a console player and to spite us (what the hell… seriously), he selected it because he and sd thought it was the best choice for the game.
Tbh since we can shoot grenades out the air i will be tapping the button anyway… which means quick select is a much better choice.

[INF3RN0]

<—Once a scroll noob, never again. Not ever. *Throws up in mouth just thinking about it

Availability of both is fine by me though.

[Apoc]

Yea, i dont think it would be too much harm just to add the option of a weapon bank, customisability is brinks strong point, why not enhance it further

[Senethro]

“Weaponbank is more buttons to press” and “auto-prime is easier”. (<-- blow me away man, that’s a solid argument)

Seriously, thats nearly all the argument there needs to be as otherwise they’re nearly functionally identical. That weaponbank has already been removed and can’t easily be added back in completes it.

Use DarkAngel’s script.

[Ryan]

[QUOTE=Senethro;210755]Seriously, thats nearly all the argument there needs to be as otherwise they’re nearly functionally identical. That weaponbank has already been removed and can’t easily be added back in completes it.

Use DarkAngel’s script.[/QUOTE]

Saying something is easier is an opinion of you.

Opinions are no arguments.

Arguments are based on reasoning and facts that make up for the argument.

Maybe now u understand why it is so frustrating debating with you as you give no arguments, only your personal feelings without explaining their origin.

[Senethro]

Lets look at what you said.

1. It interferes with your movement keys (YES, IT DOES)

Doesn't affect my movement or the movement of anyone who can set up a good bunch of binds. I think you've got an opinion there.

2. Or you have to sacrifice a mouse button (If you have any) to throw a grenade which after becomes just a USELESS button which could be used for more important things then to just sit there as an emtpy slot!

Its not a useless button, thats just your opinion. Besides even if nade was a weaponbank you would have a button bound to it anyway so its the same number of buttons. 

3. Using a weaponbank would NOT give these issues.

This is true but the problems associated with weaponbanks are worse in the opinions of most game designers from different companies, hence the adoption of offhand in all modern games. When its your opinion against theirs I know who I'll trust.

Whats frustrating about debating with you is you can’t recognise your own opinions or how few people share them.

[Voxie]

To anyone from SD: Is it feasible to add a toggle function to the grenade button (since that wouldn’t require changing your equipment system, unlike adding a weapon bank, if I’ve got the facts straight)?

Just to be clear, this would be an optional setting, not the default one.

The reason I’m asking is because several posts in this thread have been supportive of this system and hopefully it’ll finally put this whole debacle to rest as it’s arguably the next best thing to a weapon bank.

[Ryan]

Lets look at what you said.

[QUOTE]

1. It interferes with your movement keys (YES, IT DOES) Doesn’t affect my movement or the movement of anyone who can set up a good bunch of binds. I think you’ve got an opinion there.

2. Or you have to sacrifice a mouse button (If you have any) to throw a grenade which after becomes just a USELESS button which could be used for more important things then to just sit there as an emtpy slot! Its not a useless button, thats just your opinion. Besides even if nade was a weaponbank you would have a button bound to it anyway so its the same number of buttons.

3. Using a weaponbank would NOT give these issues.This is true but the problems associated with weaponbanks are worse in the opinions of most game designers from different companies, hence the adoption of offhand in all modern games. When its your opinion against theirs I know who I’ll trust.

Whats frustrating about debating with you is you can’t recognise your own opinions or how few people share them.
[/QUOTE]

Hardly, I have proven it interferes with your keyboard movement keys.

WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR make up for 5 fingers thus u would have to sacrifice one of those fingers to press a different button. (How can this be an opinion?)

The only solution for this is to sacrifice a mousebutton to not lose control of WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR.
(How can this be an opinion?) And that button would become useless after you have thrown your grenade.
How would it not be useless if you can’t use it for something?

Using a weaponbank would not give these issues. (Because you dont have to give up on WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR, and you use the mouse1 button to attack as usual, thus you don’t need to rebind a mouse button which becomes useless afterwards.

Tell me what my opinions are?
I only see facts here.

[Voxie]

Ryan, two infractions later you really shouldn’t be posting the same thing over and over and over…

We’re all voicing our opinions; some of us look at it from different points of view than you do. You don’t have to convert everyone on the forums to weaponbankism to achieve happiness in life. Seeing how we’ve got confirmation straight from the Creative Director’s mouth that a dedicated slot for nades isn’t an option all this bickering is pointless, trying to figure out alternative solutions to your problem would be a better approach.

[Senethro]

[QUOTE=Ryan;210878]Hardly, I have proven it interferes with your keyboard movement keys.

WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR make up for 5 fingers thus u would have to sacrifice one of those fingers to press a different button. (How can this be an opinion?)[/QUOTE]
Hardly. You’ve proven that it interferes with the movement keys of the unimaginative.
Here are some options: Mouse4
Mouse2, bind iron sights to Alt since you can’t be scoping AND jumping at the same time so this bind won’t interfere with jumping
Bind DarkAngel’s script to Mwheeldown.
Use Alt+Mouse1 as a conditional. The Alt only needs to be tapped. If you want to cook the grenade you hold down Mouse1 after releasing Alt.

Your opinion is the result of you being inflexible and uncreative in your bindings. This makes it your problem.

The only solution for this is to sacrifice a mousebutton to not lose control of WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR.
(How can this be an opinion?) And that button would become useless after you have thrown your grenade.
How would it not be useless if you can’t use it for something?

You’re going to bind a button to grenade anyway even if it was in a weaponbank. The button becomes useless by your standards the same way. No difference, so your opinion is incorrect.

Using a weaponbank would not give these issues. (Because you dont have to give up on WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR, and you use the mouse1 button to attack as usual, thus you don’t need to rebind a mouse button which becomes useless afterwards.[/quote
But your opinion is that the cons of weaponbank (thats its slow and unwieldy, especially for new players which Brink needs) are less significant than the pros. Other people value them differently. Both of these judgements are subjective, so you’re not in possession of “facts”.

[quote]
Tell me what my opinions are?
I only see facts here.

Just about everything you wrote is an opinion because its only important to you. It doesn’t affect most other people so its not a “fact”.

[Ryan]

[QUOTE=Senethro;210888]Hardly. You’ve proven that it interferes with the movement keys of the unimaginative.
Here are some options: Mouse4
[/QUOTE]

That’s what I said, you have to give up a mouse button…
which becomes useless after you have thrown your grenade.
(You reading any of this?)

Bind DarkAngel’s script to Mwheeldown.
Use Alt+Mouse1 as a conditional. The Alt only needs to be tapped. If you want to cook the grenade you hold down Mouse1 after releasing Alt.

Preventing from seeing what current mode you have atm…
Making it easily that u tabbed ALT without knowing and the next time u see an enemy, instead of shooting u immediatly start cooking a grenade
(Also, what happends when u have thrown your grenade, and u press ALT again? You mouse1 wont do anything) Imagine how frustrating that would be…

You’re going to bind a button to grenade anyway even if it was in a weaponbank. The button becomes useless by your standards the same way. No difference, so your opinion is incorrect.

The only difference is that u dont have to HOLD down that button. Thus it can be on a less demanding key on your keyboard. MOUSE4 however is a key which can be accesed very easily, thus it would be handy to use this button for something u need quite a lot. (And not 1 time like a grenade)
(Really, I think I mentioned this a million times)

But your opinion is that the cons of weaponbank (thats its slow and unwieldy, especially for new players which Brink needs) are less significant than the pros. Other people value them differently. Both of these judgements are subjective, so you’re not in possession of “facts”.

That’s why I wanted BOTH options to be present.

[QUOTE=Senethro;210888]
Just about everything you wrote is an opinion because its only important to you. It doesn’t affect most other people so its not a “fact”.[/QUOTE]

Whatever, look at the poll.

[H0RSE]

Thus it can be on a less demanding key on your keyboard. MOUSE4 however is a key which can be accesed very easily, thus it would be handy to use this button for something u need quite a lot. (And not 1 time like a grenade)

I use grenades quite a lot…not just 1 time. What other action is SO important, that it wouldn’t already be bound to a key and you would need to free up mouse 4? I know I have my voicechat button on numpad_enter. It easy for me to hit it with my trackball thumb, and still have control.

[Senethro]

[QUOTE=Ryan;210889]That’s what I said, you have to give up a mouse button…
which becomes useless after you have thrown your grenade.
(You reading any of this?)[/quote]
That it becomes useless is only your opinion. I think its a good assignment because it avoids conflicts for same reasons as fire and ironsights.

Preventing from seeing what current mode you have atm…
Making it easily that u tabbed ALT without knowing and the next time u see an enemy, instead of shooting u immediatly start cooking a grenade
(Also, what happends when u have thrown your grenade, and u press ALT again? You mouse1 wont do anything) Imagine how frustrating that would be…

So? You have to have priorities. Would you rather offhand or a fake weaponbank? Thats your choice right now.

Also, using Alt as a conditional bind works in a different manner to the script. That options still on the table as far as I can tell. While the script means you press a button to rebind Mouse1, the conditional bind means Mouse1 is fire and Alt+mouse1 is grenade. Pressing two buttons at once is fiddly but like I said, you got to have priorities. If its that important that you can’t have grenade on the mouse then you should be happy to have a two button activation to avoid that.

The only difference is that u dont have to HOLD down that button. Thus it can be on a less demanding key on your keyboard. MOUSE4 however is a key which can be accesed very easily, thus it would be handy to use this button for something u need quite a lot. (And not 1 time like a grenade)
(Really, I think I mentioned this a million times)

About 20% of my kills in ETQW were grenades. I think thats worth a mouse button.

Seriously, what other functions are there that potentially interfere with movement, but not with combat and so need to go on the mouse?

Whatever, look at the poll.

Whatever, look at every other game released recently.

[Shiv]

[QUOTE=Ryan;210889]
Whatever, look at the poll.[/QUOTE]

/me looks at clearly biased poll from clearly biased user base.
oo… that poll, yeah it doesnt mean anything.

[Ryan]

I use grenades quite a lot…not just 1 time. What other action is SO important, that it wouldn’t already be bound to a key and you would need to free up mouse 4? I know I have my voicechat button on numpad_enter. It easy for me to hit it with my trackball thumb, and still have control.

Then u must die everytime u have thrown your grenade.

PS: How u press your numpad_enter while running and shooting?