Goldrush madness

(Ifurita) #61

And it’s pretty clear that neither Grey Matter, Activision, id Software or SD sees this as important enough to do AND ENFORCE.

(]UBC[ McNite) #62

Just to end the futile discussion about the legal aspect, I bring to you a little bit of the license that ships with ET:

3. Prohibitions with Regard to the Software.  You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
(...)
g. disassemble, reverse engineer, decompile, modify, except as permitted by section 2 hereinabove, or alter the Software;
k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;

This covers any topic about decompiling and re-doing a stock map. Next paragraph states that ET and the stock maps indeed are copyright protected (gosh who’d thought that)

5. Intellectual Property Rights.  
The Software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other conceivable intellectual property rights related to the Software are owned by ID and are protected by United States copyright laws(...).  You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material

Just for those who say, hey, the mapfile comes with radiant, here s the interesting sentence from the license of the Radiant:

2. Prohibitions. You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
j. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software; or

This again is about you-are-not-allowed-to-take-goldrush-and-modify-it.

So far for the legal aspect.
Shall we move on to the moral aspect?

PS: what i just forgot: for all those who might think “hey, I didn’t read that so it doesn’t count for me”… I m amazed that you can read at all :smiley:

(Shaderman) #63

It seems to be hard to explain people that they’re doing sometinhg wrong in a society where downloading commercial films, music and so on is “self-evident”. If there’s a peer-to-peer network it’s being used (legal and illegal), if there’s a free bonus like a .map file coming with a game it apparently seems to be the same - no matter if it’s permitted or not. The sad thing is that you can tell it those people again and again - they still ignore it :confused:

(NullZilla) #64

Just to end the futile discussion about the legal aspect, I bring to you a little bit of the license that ships with ET:

Code:
3. Prohibitions with Regard to the Software. You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
(…)
g. disassemble, reverse engineer, decompile, modify, except as permitted by section 2 hereinabove, or alter the Software;
k. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software;

This covers any topic about decompiling and re-doing a stock map. Next paragraph states that ET and the stock maps indeed are copyright protected (gosh who’d thought that)

Code:
5. Intellectual Property Rights.
The Software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other conceivable intellectual property rights related to the Software are owned by ID and are protected by United States copyright laws(…). You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material

Just for those who say, hey, the mapfile comes with radiant, here s the interesting sentence from the license of the Radiant:

Code:
2. Prohibitions. You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:
j. prepare or develop derivative works based upon the Software; or

This again is about you-are-not-allowed-to-take-goldrush-and-modify-it.

So far for the legal aspect.
Shall we move on to the moral aspect?

PS: what i just forgot: for all those who might think “hey, I didn’t read that so it doesn’t count for me”… I m amazed that you can read at all

Well as far as all that goes I guess any sort of modifications to the game at all would be prohibited. This includes ETPro, Shrub, and any mods on fileplanet and RTCWfiles. Even mods that change the way allies/axis look would be prohibited. Because you’re still using SD/ID/Activision’s models, you’re just changing the texture right? (in most cases).

But it all boils down to the legal aspect. Can Splash/ID/Activision file a lawsuit against it? Yes. Will they? Probably not.

• It’s a free game. They aren’t losing money over a map modification.
• None of the goldrush modifiers are making money off of their maps, and aren’t making money off of SD’s work.
• If anything they are gaining more players. It’s new maps and mods that keep the game alive.
• If they were to file a lawsuit against the goldrush modifiers, they would also have to file a lawsuit against all other mods and maps. So many people would stop playing.
• In most of the goldrush mod maps, 100% credit goes to SplashDamage/ID/Activision.

They would be nuts to file a lawsuit. They would end up probably losing more money that way.

(Gringo Starr) #65

Just to throw my perspective in here…:slight_smile: I made a version of mp_beach for the WildWest mod, called ww_beach. It wasn’t my first map, & I spent about 150 hours on it. I feel it was okay to do, since it is a tribute really, and not trying to take the place of the original. Also, a full conversion mod is already operating under the assumption that it is derivative. How do you feel about mods McNite?

(Sauron|EFG) #66

[quote=]UBC[ McNite]@ sauron: You are plain wrong. As long as you don’t have written permission doing remakes of the stock maps is illegal due to copyright.
And you got a funny idea of how legality works… I mean, if I go to the gunshop and nick a pumpgun, according to what you say this would be legal as long as the shopkeeper doesn’t complain, wouldn’t it?
[/quote]
I knew someone would misunderstand… :disgust:

I agree that it’s against the EULA, I’m not so sure it’s illegal everywhere in the world though. My point was that it would be really easy for SD to say “please don’t do this, it’s against the EULA and illegal in most of the civilized world…”, but they choose not to say anything. Why?

Also, if ID/Activision put some pressure on the big sites hosting “conversions” they could probably stop them from becoming popular, but they don’t. Why?

Now before you go and misunderstand me again, I’m not defending conversions (I could live without them tbh), I’m just saying I don’t understand why they don’t do anything, unless they’re silently accepting the situation.

(]UBC[ McNite) #67

gringo, sauron… the prob is where do u draw the line?

I think that most of the ripping of goldrush is due to ppl having an easy go to release a map that most likely gets some recognition (I doubt their own maps would get some like this). This is def something I disapprove of cuz its not their work. Apart from that I d say its disrespectful to the original creators work as well. But this is the moral side, and shaderman said, its completely unlikely most of the ripping noobs will even be able to understand this concept of respecting other ppls work and copyrights.

Maybe this is an ancient way of seeing the world, but I d like my work to be respected, so I start with respecting other ppls work. Simple as that.

(NullZilla) #68

I think that most of the ripping of goldrush is due to ppl having an easy go to release a map that most likely gets some recognition (I doubt their own maps would get some like this).

Well like I said I made SGR for my clan, I don’t need recognition with my clan.

This is def something I disapprove of cuz its not their work. Apart from that I d say its disrespectful to the original creators work as well. But this is the moral side, and shaderman said, its completely unlikely most of the ripping noobs will even be able to understand this concept of respecting other ppls work and copyrights.

So you’re saying we deserve no credit for the actual modifications to the map? Because the modifications just randomly show up in the map? As long as we give credit to the actual company for designing the majority of the map except the modifications I see no problem morally or legally.

(SCDS_reyalP) #69

Giving credit does not give the right to violate your license. Giving credit is nice from a moral perspective, but it certainly doesn’t exempt you from the EULA or copyright law.

If you write a novel, and I reproduce it with few changes of wording and a different chapter at the end, would just giving you credit make it OK ?

The moral judgement is up to you. Myself, I don’t see it as a big deal. SD and activision aren’t being harmed in any significant way. The community may be harmed bit by the flood of half assed ripoffs (not aimed at yours in particular, I haven’t played it), but the problem with that is the half assed part, not the ripoff part…

Note that in the past, id did take a fairly tough stance on this kind of thing.

(Mean Mr. Mustard) #70

As long as we give credit to the actual company for designing the majority of the map except the modifications I see no problem morally or legally.

It is illegal to modify Goldrush under intellectual property laws. Just like it is illegal to use RTCW models/textures/etc in ET maps. Will SD or Activision sue you? Probably not. Does this mean since they won’t press charges, then it’s ok to do? No.

Illegal activity and lawsuits are not always about money (I don’t know where people get that misconception…) Just because you are not making money off ‘borrowing’ some one’s property does not make it legal.

I guess it comes down to your moral standing. The mappers telling you not to do this are those who feel it’s wrong to use something without the author’s permission.

You feel that it is not immoral nor illegal to do this. You feel it’s up to SD or Activision to tell you to stop if they don’t like it, instead of seeking their permission before you begin. Almost like you don’t have the common courtesy to ask permission. Oh well, you will do what you will.

(Crotalus) #71

fires up eMule

:smiley:

(Gringo Starr) #72

Legal issues and rightful ownership aside, does anyone know how the creator(s) of Goldrush feel about it? I’ve heard a couple people say they wouldn’t want their work copied. I imagine the maps are a collaborative effort, no? So would it really be any one person’s work? Also, how long ago do you think it was made? Nearly 2 years ago, I bet. Those people have moved on, and may actually be chuckling at the fact that it’s still being copied. Do you think they have time to feel disrespected while working 80 hours a week on a game you haven’t even seen yet? I’m not sure the lone mapper (myself included :)) can relate. Some say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You have to be satisfied being the only person who knows you’re the real owner, cause you’ll live longer. :slight_smile:

(Softwar) #73

You guys talk loads of crap !

So please stfu :smiley:

:banana: Toiletman :banana:

(Fusen) #74

ahhh nullzilla, didn’t realise you were on these boards, did you make sgr as a comedy map or were you being serious? :x

(thore) #75

oooooooookay, this is getting really boring now. could we agree on stopping this bs now please?

there are 2 opinions about modding stock maps - and obviously there is no chance of merging those
and come to an agreement. since repeating the old insults over and over is not taking us any step
further imho the only thing that really could add some more value to this thread is some statement
of the official sd guys who made those maps and tell us how THEY feel about this.

as long as that doesn’t happen i don’t think there is a need or use to keep this “discussion” alive.

thanks.

(NullZilla) #76

ahhh nullzilla, didn’t realise you were on these boards, did you make sgr as a comedy map or were you being serious? :x

Well both really. It was originally intended as a “fun” map for my clan to play on, but they liked it so much and submitted it to map sites and then it was ran on many servers so I decided to make SGR2 with more competitive stuff like the dynamitable door in the bank and stuff

(Balr14) #77

8 beta versions of a map!!! It’s no wonder people lose interest.

(G0-Gerbil) #78

I see no problem morally or legally.
I think most people have come to the following conclusion - those who want to do it will do it. Those who don’t, don’t.

But nullzilla, can you please stop saying there’s nothing wrong legally with it? You are wrong, and have had numerous posts explaining in detail where you’ve breached your EULA and are in fact breaking the law.

I don’t really care these days about people ripping off assets - it’s entirely up to them (for my part, I refuse to play maps with anything ripped off without permission). But I do wish they’d stop pretending it’s legal, because it’s 100% not.

(NullZilla) #79

I think most people have come to the following conclusion - those who want to do it will do it. Those who don’t, don’t.

But nullzilla, can you please stop saying there’s nothing wrong legally with it? You are wrong, and have had numerous posts explaining in detail where you’ve breached your EULA and are in fact breaking the law.

I don’t really care these days about people ripping off assets - it’s entirely up to them (for my part, I refuse to play maps with anything ripped off without permission). But I do wish they’d stop pretending it’s legal, because it’s 100% not.

It’s not illegal unless their’s a law in your country that specifically states something like this: “Modifying the goldrush map for the game enemy territory is illegal”.

Now I highly doubt there’s a law that says that. Therefore since it’s not a law, it is not illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal however. But modifying goldrush specifically is not illegal.

Do you now understand?

(G0-Gerbil) #80

Do you now understand?
Sadly I think you never will.
When you download and install ET you HAVE to agree to a license. This license strictly prohibits many things, including what you are doing. It is a legally binding contract, and you are part of it.

Please stop trying to play lawyer. For specifics, go back up this page and read Mcnite’s post on this page. It’s the second one down. I know you’ve seen it because your next post after it quoted it and you then all but agreed with it’s contents before attempting to sidetrack regarding mods.

Since you seem to have problems with ‘the law’, let me put it like this:

Fact 1: You agreed to the very legally binding licensing terms when you installed ET
Fact 2: Releasing Goldrush as you have done is in breach of those terms
Fact 3: Breach of contract is a legal matter in every country around the world.

Stop disputing that what you are doing is wrong, and simply own up to the fact you don’t care. Being honest will at least get you some modicum of respect, instead of vainly trying to claim you know better than everyone else, which is getting pretty boring really. If you want to release goldrush again, fine, but be man enough to admit what you are doing.

This issue arises with pretty much every Q3-based game, as well as every other modable game in some form (assets going between different games, assets re-used without permission etc). You are simply plain wrong about it being legal*. Leave it at that, because many many people have been down this road before.

Sooner or later you’ll have to admit that, or just eventually give up trying to ‘prove’ we don’t know what we are talking about and let the thread die. Either way, the sooner you do it the better - for our sakes and for the sake of your rapidly diminishing reputation here.

* I am of course referring to this particular context. Let’s stick to it and not deviate.