[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;163579”]The only problem with stickies is their availability. Being able to effectively go only 2 or 3 seconds without a sticky is unacceptable. If you remove the ability hold 3 stickies, Fletcher is fixed.
Give him just 1 sticky every 10 seconds, and let him have up to 3 active stickies (like now). In example, you would throw a sticky, wait 10 seconds, throw a second, wait 10 seconds, then throw a third. You would never be able to throw more than 1 at a time, but up to 3 can be laid out. You should never be able to 1 shot with stickies on anything but a direct stick or if the opponent stands in that inner radius.
Anyone that says Fletcher is hard to play has never played or never been good with Demoman. [/quote]
If done like that I would actually be ok with stickys doing 100 damage, because if they miss i get a 10 second window to make something out of.
Sticky damage is only so good because you get effectively infinite attempts. Stickies shouldn’t be as strong as fragger nades, but, you should get them faster, and stickies should be more of a support item, like EVERYONE ELSE’S Q (except rhino lmao), instead of the main weapon. You toss a sticky, get rewarded for being a perfect throw, but even then, you just detonate, then shotty to finish. If you miss, you have to use your primary weapon anyway.
[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;163579”]The only problem with stickies is their availability. Being able to effectively go only 2 or 3 seconds without a sticky is unacceptable. If you remove the ability hold 3 stickies, Fletcher is fixed.
Give him just 1 sticky every 10 seconds, and let him have up to 3 active stickies (like now). In example, you would throw a sticky, wait 10 seconds, throw a second, wait 10 seconds, then throw a third. You would never be able to throw more than 1 at a time, but up to 3 can be laid out. You should never be able to 1 shot with stickies on anything but a direct stick or if the opponent stands in that inner radius.
Anyone that says Fletcher is hard to play has never played or never been good with Demoman. [/quote]
If you play Fletcher using only stickies as your weapon (like literally everyone) then yes, it is. Then again, the problem is that Fletcher might as well not have weapons because he only uses stickies anyway.
[quote=“Szakalot;163458”]@ShotgunRagtime fletcher wasnt popularnas people didnt know how to use him. it took almost half a year before fletcher started seeing use in comp.
Arty did get buffed through the changes to burst rifles, making Stark the most ridicuously OP gun for high aim players.
Fragger alwaya was, and still is the OP merc of the game. before the 1 merc rule people run at least 2, sometimes even 4 fraggers per team[/quote]
I’m not talking exclusively about high-end comp play, but more ranked and average pub gameplay. And at least in those two venues, there were plenty of people who played Fletcha to his full potential, even better than now given his un-nerfed stickies, and nobody seemed to have a problem with it.
I understand the correlation you’re drawing with Arty, but it’s irrelevant. The BR16 received a similar treatment to the Stark, and it’s still coming up as the most popular burst rifle in polls (I disagree, but that’s what people think…) Suffice to say, Sky still has access to the majority’s preferred rifle, the BR16, and yet there’s somehow a resurgence of players claiming that Arty is better than Sky, many citing Arty’s ability as being better than Sky’s. Makes very little sense.
As for Fragger, I wish people would stop calling him OP. He’s an assault merc, it’s his job to kill people, and he’s good at that. If people are running 2 Fraggers, that’s a problem with the other assault mercs, not Fragger. Fragger, like Sky, Sawbonez, Bush, etc. sets a PRECEDENT in his category. It’s up to the other mercs in that category to live up to that title. So again, I’ll maintain that it’s just an issue of some mercs needing help. If all the assaults were nerfed to Thunder/Phantom level, the game would be shit. So let’s bring those assaults up to Fragger’s level (which is not gamebreaking) and we’ll have a better go of it.
Anyway, I should say that I think the majority of these strangely shifting views come down to the stale meta. People just see some mercs for such a long time without any variety, and their views on them change. People need an outlet for frustration, so they pick someone like Fletcha (who they’re sick of seeing) as a target for a two-minutes’ hate.
[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;163579”]The only problem with stickies is their availability. Being able to effectively go only 2 or 3 seconds without a sticky is unacceptable. If you remove the ability hold 3 stickies, Fletcher is fixed.
Give him just 1 sticky every 10 seconds, and let him have up to 3 active stickies (like now). In example, you would throw a sticky, wait 10 seconds, throw a second, wait 10 seconds, then throw a third. You would never be able to throw more than 1 at a time, but up to 3 can be laid out. You should never be able to 1 shot with stickies on anything but a direct stick or if the opponent stands in that inner radius.
Anyone that says Fletcher is hard to play has never played or never been good with Demoman. [/quote]
Way to go for killing the merc :
Kills versatility. Fletcher is supposed to be versatile. Your changes leave him with no versatility at all.
Makes trap based playstyle totally unviable. 20 seconds to set up a 3 stickies trap ? This is terrible.
Removes all point about playing Fletcher. Proxy would be a better offensive merc. Bushwhacker would outclass Fletcher by a mile with better weapons and now a way better ability. Fletcher would become the weakest engineer, if not the weakest merc available.
Kills the merc’s identity. Fletcher’s ability reliance is a part of his identity. This should not be removed.
Because stickies have a small damage radius with only 100 damage on direct hit and 80 damage without direct hit, your changes would make that ability the worst you could ever imagine. There’s no point about using small explosives if you can’t stock them.
Modifying his Sticky’s damage to 99 should be fine.
He is just way too strong against 100HP Phoenix who doesn’t even have Unshakable.
Just one damage like the Fel-IX can’t one shot Aura and Sparks with 80 HP.
I do understand Fletcher acting like he is an Assault does have much more potential than same engie’s turret/mine, but he does have his limit very clearly.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]Way to go for killing the merc :
Kills versatility. Fletcher is supposed to be versatile. Your changes leave him with no versatility at all.[/quote]
Because he’s really versatile now. People aren’t just spamming stickies and instead opt to use his guns, right? Oh wait, noobs and bad fletchers are setting sticky traps while good players are just tossing them as a main weapon and ignoring his guns. Forgot that part.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Makes trap based playstyle totally unviable. 20 seconds to set up a 3 stickies trap ? This is terrible.[/quote]
See above. No one good plays him trap based anyway. Players use him as direct assault.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Removes all point about playing Fletcher. Proxy would be a better offensive merc. Bushwhacker would outclass Fletcher by a mile with better weapons and now a way better ability. Fletcher would become the weakest engineer, if not the weakest merc available.[/quote]
The fact that he’s an engineer at all is terrible. And no one can get weaker than Vassili, RedEye, and Phantom. Sorry.
Proxy is only stronger on offense due to speed. Fletcher trades guns and speed for a sticky that, combined with a single pistol or shotty shot, can instakill every merc under 150HP. Do a little math: 80 -100 damage just from the sticky (we assume you can aim at all) + 77 damage from a body shot with the shotty (realistically 40 - 50 damage) is about 140 to 180 dps in the first burst of combat every 10 seconds. Considering that it’s not hard to 2 shot a proxy with a shotty from mid range, if you can’t win a firefight with the insanely high advantage of having a remote detonation explosive to start the fight with, stop playing the game.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Kills the merc’s identity. Fletcher’s ability reliance is a part of his identity. This should not be removed.[/quote]
Having a free explosive that can 1 shot half the mercs in the game every 10 seconds is pretty reliable.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Because stickies have a small damage radius with only 100 damage on direct hit and 80 damage without direct hit, your changes would make that ability the worst you could ever imagine. There’s no point about using small explosives if you can’t stock them.[/quote]
I would not call 80 - 100 damage a small explosive.
All I’m hearing is a Fletcher that forgot how to use a gun crying that his free win class might be nerfed into a state that forces you to aim again. Leave Demoman in TF2, we don’t need one here too.
@MidnightButterSweats You have literally no clue what you’re talking about. If you think nerfing sticky cooldown to 10 seconds would do anything but completely kill the merc, then you need to stop smoking crack. Also lmao @ capping them at 1 at a time. You know what? You don’t want to “balance” Fletcher, you want him removed from the game, like a petulant child who just NEEDS to get his way.
Stickies are Fletcher’s primary. If you can’t see how this was a deliberate design choice, IDK what to tell you. Fletcher is handicapped to CQC, and that’s what he’s good at. Get over it. Fight Fletchers out of sticky range (not hard) or be prepared to ambush them quickly. Stop sending 100 HP mercs to the frontlines where they don’t belong anyways.
[quote=“MidnightButterSweats;163621”][quote=“Eox;163595”]Way to go for killing the merc :
Kills versatility. Fletcher is supposed to be versatile. Your changes leave him with no versatility at all.[/quote]
Because he’s really versatile now. People aren’t just spamming stickies and instead opt to use his guns, right? Oh wait, noobs and bad fletchers are setting sticky traps while good players are just tossing them as a main weapon and ignoring his guns. Forgot that part.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Makes trap based playstyle totally unviable. 20 seconds to set up a 3 stickies trap ? This is terrible.[/quote]
See above. No one good plays him trap based anyway. Players use him as direct assault.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Removes all point about playing Fletcher. Proxy would be a better offensive merc. Bushwhacker would outclass Fletcher by a mile with better weapons and now a way better ability. Fletcher would become the weakest engineer, if not the weakest merc available.[/quote]
The fact that he’s an engineer at all is terrible. And no one can get weaker than Vassili, RedEye, and Phantom. Sorry.
Proxy is only stronger on offense due to speed. Fletcher trades guns and speed for a sticky that, combined with a single pistol or shotty shot, can instakill every merc under 150HP. Do a little math: 80 -100 damage just from the sticky (we assume you can aim at all) + 77 damage from a body shot with the shotty (realistically 40 - 50 damage) is about 140 to 180 dps in the first burst of combat every 10 seconds. Considering that it’s not hard to 2 shot a proxy with a shotty from mid range, if you can’t win a firefight with the insanely high advantage of having a remote detonation explosive to start the fight with, stop playing the game.
[quote=“Eox;163595”]
Kills the merc’s identity. Fletcher’s ability reliance is a part of his identity. This should not be removed.[/quote]
Having a free explosive that can 1 shot half the mercs in the game every 10 seconds is pretty reliable.
You don’t seem to know about the current metagame.
Shotguns are absolutely trash, because they have such an insane lack of range that you can’t hope to kill anything in a competitive environement. Reason ? Falloff stacked with pellet spread. It’s impossible to deal consistant damage to anything further than 5 meters in front of you. This also makes headshots only reliable at point blank (you will never be able to put your insane 150 damage HS at anything but point blank). In a game where the metagame is mid-long ranged, this is terrible. You’ll get shredded before you would be even able to close half the distance between you an enemy. Shotguns are only viable in pubs due to the general chaos.
Your post has misinformations. You can only one shot 5 out of 18 mercs : that isn’t even a third of the merc roaster. And for 3 of them you must score a direct hit, which will require you more skill than just pointing and shooting. Also, every single other merc won’t stay where you are while you throws stickies. They will start to shoot at you as soon as you show up, oftenly dealing much more damage than you do with the sticky bomb if they at least dodge a part of the explosion. This becomes exponentially easier the further you are from your target. Against somewhat decent player you’ll end just dealing around 40 damage while the guy in front of you would have very likely eat through 70 hit points of your health bar (or worse). Why ? Because sticky bombs are terrible long range and duel weapons. They’re not the weapon of mass destruction you are talking about. Remote detonation takes time (switch + detonation time), travel time takes time, switching back to your primary also takes time. All the time you took to throw the sticky bomb and switch, any decent player could have dealt to you a massive amount of damage.
That’s where the flaws of your reasoning are : no one decent will stay static against a Fletcher or any enemy, and WILL fight back. You are also unaware of the multiple delays and drawbacks Fletcher have to deal with.
No one plays him as a trap based merc on a consistant basis, but there’s some scenarios where you want to lay them as traps. Some players might also like laying them as traps as well. Removing that alternative is still a bad idea.
Seeing the main argument for why Bushwacker is more viable is due to his gun, why not balance (reduce to 2 stickies, reduce cool down for sticky, something along the lines of a tradeoff) and then buff the blishlok or shotgun (make the rounds for ahnuld a slug instead of a shell) such that it competes with the kek? Fletcher is an engineer after all. Also someone please tell me in what situation does Fletcher needs to use all three stickies at once? Seeing I don’t main fletcher, Im honestly curious.
Ad hominems are the best ones to have. Keeps it fun~
[quote=“Eox;163663”]You don’t seem to know about the current metagame.
Shotguns are absolutely trash, because they have such an insane lack of range that you can’t hope to kill anything in a competitive environement.[/quote]
It’s already been made clear this isn’t an issue in competitive, and that we’re fixing it for pubs, not competitive. See ClemClem and Haki’s posts above.
From full HP yes. In a real time environment most players are short 20 - 40 HP from firefights or area damage.
This is absolutely not difficult in any way for anyone practiced with Demoman.
I think you need to click a stopwatch on this. Pushing q, pushing e, then pushing mouse 1 takes about .5 seconds, and add in another .402378 or whatever seconds for the detonation lag. At the worst, you hit q, m1, e, 1, m1, which might add another .25 seconds to the problem.
No one decent will stay static against anyone, regardless of class. Considering no one has 100% accuracy with any weapon, the dps comparison of the lowest acceptable aim from a sticky and 1 shotty shot (about 130 damage in all) in one second is much higher than the lowest acceptable aim from a full auto weapon (35% or so accuracy where 100% accuracy is 130dps or so depending on the weapon = 130*.35=45.5 effective dps). For all of these calculations I use Body Shots only to reference, since head-shots are a reward for skill and not a basis for calculation.
Tell me you still aren’t outgunning most every class.
Area denial, elimination without revives possible (you have to manage to stuck all the three stickies on the guy, which is really not easy)… There’s some scenarios where you want to send all three at once, but it’s wiser to always keep one close. Removing a sticky breaks that, making Fletcher less versatile, which is a shame.
If sticky spam is the issue, IMO it’s more logic to reduce the rate at which you can throw the sticky bombs. Currently, the RPM of sticky bombs is 60, which means that you can throw one sticky bomb per second. You could reduce that RPM to 50-45 ish which will increase a bit more the delay between two stickies. As a trade-of however, you could raise the sticky bomb projectile speed a bit, so the projectile takes a bit less time time to reach it’s destination, which is something that people who aim for direct hits would love.
[quote=“Eox;163728”]Area denial, elimination without revives possible (you have to manage to stuck all the three stickies on the guy, which is really not easy)… There’s some scenarios where you want to send all three at once, but it’s wiser to always keep one close. Removing a sticky breaks that, making Fletcher less versatile, which is a shame.
If sticky spam is the issue, IMO it’s more logic to reduce the rate at which you can throw the sticky bombs. Currently, the RPM of sticky bombs is 60, which means that you can throw one sticky bomb per second. You could reduce that RPM to 50-45 ish which will increase a bit more the delay between two stickies. As a trade-of however, you could raise the sticky bomb projectile speed a bit, so the projectile takes a bit less time time to reach it’s destination, which is something that people who aim for direct hits would love.[/quote]
I have 24+ Fletcher hours as still relatively a DB noob (120ish hours actually played as mercs), and I think projectile speed would be fine even if you couldn’t throw as often.
Coming from TF2 there’s a similar weapon you can use for faster projectile speed, but no rolling nades. People despise that weapon, and even with it’s nerfs call it a crutch.
Increasing the projectile speed would piss people off, throw off the aim of previous users (for a while), and touching on pissing people off again: give them a reason to still hate Fletcher.
[quote=“FerfyDerf;163730”][quote=“Eox;163728”]Area denial, elimination without revives possible (you have to manage to stuck all the three stickies on the guy, which is really not easy)… There’s some scenarios where you want to send all three at once, but it’s wiser to always keep one close. Removing a sticky breaks that, making Fletcher less versatile, which is a shame.
If sticky spam is the issue, IMO it’s more logic to reduce the rate at which you can throw the sticky bombs. Currently, the RPM of sticky bombs is 60, which means that you can throw one sticky bomb per second. You could reduce that RPM to 50-45 ish which will increase a bit more the delay between two stickies. As a trade-of however, you could raise the sticky bomb projectile speed a bit, so the projectile takes a bit less time time to reach it’s destination, which is something that people who aim for direct hits would love.[/quote]
I have 24+ Fletcher hours as still relatively a DB noob (120ish hours actually played as mercs), and I think projectile speed would be fine even if you couldn’t throw as often.
Coming from TF2 there’s a similar weapon you can use for faster projectile speed, but no rolling nades. People despise that weapon, and even with it’s nerfs call it a crutch.
Increasing the projectile speed would piss people off, throw off the aim of previous users (for a while), and touching on pissing people off again: give them a reason to still hate Fletcher.
[/quote]
TF2 has nothing to do with DB though. But you’re right. That projectile speed idea wasn’t the best. Out of question to touch the damage on direct hit also. It’s just right and reward accuracy.
The only thing I would actually be fine about is to see non stuck damage reduced from 80 to 75 or something, giving a chance to Aura players and making Direct Hits more important. Out of question to change the direct hit damage though.
So as sparks has, give him no primary and he can only use stickies, and eMPire9 sometimes. Without shotgun or blishock, he’ll be as balanced as sparks is (Personally, I don’t think sparks is balanced, too weak and no firepower, but a lot of fletcher’s users are fine with it so…). If you want to kill plenty of mercs, try fragger. Fletcher is not an assault, so he can’t have so many killpower. I think one sticky at time will be a good idea. Or as proxxy has, a time for the sticky to be armed before explosion.
Pro fletcher should not worry about such a nerf, because they can stick nades on ennemies. If you think this nerf will affect your gameplay and tend to make Fletcher useless, so maybe you’re one of these spamming fletcher.
If you think Fletcher isn’t OP atm, you’re doing something wrong, because he is OP in almost every hands who knows how to play this game.
Sparks was not designed to kill people, fletcher is not too.
are you trolling? sparks has a one hit kill weapon at anything but long range. Thats better than a sticky in terms of alpha strike, only Fragger and Thunder survive a lazor headshot
-You need more skill to put a headshot with sparks than a sticky at player feet.
-Revivr has no AoE if you miss your shot by few centimeters
I don’t think Fletcher must have no primary as sparks, because it’s not fair. Sparks is useless, and I don’t want an other merc to be put that way. I just want you to see how strong is Fletcher with a primary and an ability which can be used as primary. I repeat, he is not an assault!!
If you think Fletcher is balanced and sparks too, just take one of your friends with equivalent skill, and try 1v1 only with ability, and then only with guns. You play sparks, and your friend play Fletcher. You will see why is sparks Underpowered and why is Fletcher Op.
