Fletcher, explosives, state of the game

(Szakalot) #21

@globalGale indeed long jumping towards the target allows for the furthest throws with highest speed. the only problem being you are making yourself the easiest target for gunfire from all movement possibilities

(RedBeard) #22

Concentrate on the larger group of issues not one merc. See above.

(globalGale) #23

You’d be doing a bad job if you expose yourself that much. However, due to the extremely low TTK on stickies. You’d still be able to (by adding latteral movement) avoid shots effeciently and still hit them.

Fletcher is just all-round to effective at any range at the moment. Due to broken stickies

(globalGale) #24

[quote=“RedBeard;163227”][quote=“globalGale;27730”]

SNIP

[/quote]

Concentrate on the larger group of issues not one merc. See above.

[/quote]

What i’ve tried to state on my OP is that most mercs that where deemed “to good” where adressed. even harshly is some cases. However the most glaring issue now is fletcher

Its like a submarine. as soon as you silence something, the next loudest thing will be the loudest thing. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be solved tough

(terminal) #25

1:18


0:00
(Eox) #26

Meanwh[quote=“globalGale;163251”][quote=“Szakalot;163196”]@globalGale indeed long jumping towards the target allows for the furthest throws with highest speed. the only problem being you are making yourself the easiest target for gunfire from all movement possibilities[/quote]

You’d be doing a bad job if you expose yourself that much. However, due to the extremely low TTK on stickies. You’d still be able to (by adding latteral movement) avoid shots effeciently and still hit them.

Fletcher is just all-round to effective at any range at the moment. Due to broken stickies[/quote]

You’d be doing a bad job if you expose yourself that much. However, due to the extremely low TTK on stickies. You’d still be able to (by adding latteral movement) avoid shots effeciently and still hit them.

Fletcher is just all-round to effective at any range at the moment. Due to broken stickies[/quote]

Extremely low TTK ? Please. You can’t go above 100 DPS : you can only throw one stickybomb per second, and that one sticky bomb will only deal up to 100 damage on direct hit. Meanwhile every single primary weapon has a DPS equal or above 120. Twice the DPS if you aim for the head. If you don’t score a direct hit against a 90 or a 100 hp merc, as long as you play against someone decent, you’re pretty much dead.

Also, Fletcher being efficient at all ranges is totally false. Your sticky bombs has travel time, which makes sticky bombs much more easy to dodge if you are far enough. Their damage is also reduced depending how far you are from the center of the explosion, reducing the damage harshly depending of how much you missed your target. Finally, there’s still detonation time to take into consideration. I already talked about Shotguns and Blishlok in my older post.

The only way to get that 100 DPS is to score direct hits reliably, which is already pretty hard to perform as you have to anticipate your enemy’s movement (which is far from being easy in a game like Dirty Bomb). If you got directly hit by a stickybomb, you got outplayed.

(Szakalot) #27

You’d be doing a bad job if you expose yourself that much. However, due to the extremely low TTK on stickies. You’d still be able to (by adding latteral movement) avoid shots effeciently and still hit them.

Fletcher is just all-round to effective at any range at the moment. Due to broken stickies[/quote]

there are very few scenarios where you can long jump forward towards the enemy and not expose yourself. Primary cases I can think of is throwing from beneath a fence on chapel last obj, or if you have complete high ground (bridge on trainyard last obj down towards the dried river). Can you think of any other examples?

Adding lateral movement decreases both range and speed.

People who main fletcher, and played him in high skill environments are all telling you he is not as strong as you make him out to be. Are you going to present some arguments or just restate opinion about ‘how broken stickies are’?

(ShotgunRagtime) #28

I’m going to go out on a limb and say – I don’t think any of the mercs are overpowered. Some mercs are UP, like Proxy, Phantom, Thunder, etc, but there aren’t any mercs who just tower over the others in their category.

Fletcha competes with Bushie, and they’re about on the same level. No need to make Fletcha worse and hand the meta solely to the Busherino.

I’ve noticed that this community is very inconstant with its opinions. I remember back before the sticky nerf, people thought Fletcha was fine, even a bit weak, and that the nerf was unjustified. Now, people think he’s OP. People used to think Arty was terrible, but now he’s apparently very strong (hasn’t been buffed…)

Hell, now the PDP is OP, the Blish is fine, etc etc. Too many people going into the forums with “nerf this, buff that” – it’s really difficult to even understand what people want anymore. I blame the stale meta.

I’d like to see what happens with the new merc, and the other mercs, in the next update before we touch Fletcha.

(Cletus_VanDamme) #29

1:18

I like these old merc roll calls.

Whoever told the person narrating them that the plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy dirty! was cool needs a turkey slap.

(Szakalot) #30

@ShotgunRagtime fletcher wasnt popularnas people didnt know how to use him. it took almost half a year before fletcher started seeing use in comp.

Arty did get buffed through the changes to burst rifles, making Stark the most ridicuously OP gun for high aim players.

Fragger alwaya was, and still is the OP merc of the game. before the 1 merc rule people run at least 2, sometimes even 4 fraggers per team

(ClemClem7) #31

If you nerf the AoE of stickies, you just avoid spam, and reward good players. I can’t see what’s wrong with this suggestion.

For sparks, the dps is way lower and nobody defended her before nerf because she was hard to play with, and noobs can’t handle with someone who’s better than him with one merc, so if they can’t use her, then nerf.
For Fletcher it’s an other problem, because noobs can be good with him without skill.
His skill gap is big, but efficiency gap between noobs and pros is not this big.
I have no problem to be killed by a good Fletcher who can stuck me with his sticky, but I rage when someone kill me with AoE of 3 sticky without skill and just spam.

(Jostabeere) #32

Sorry mate, but if you manage to not to kill Fletcher or run away in the time he misses 3 stickies and detonates them, you’re doing stuff wrong.

(ClemClem7) #33

I agree with this point ^^
It was to point out the fact that he has 3 of it, because only one of it can easily instakill low Hp mercs within the AoE which is too large.
I get often instakill by a sticky throw at 1m from when I play sparks, just blind throw

EDIT: I just did a game with him, even I’m not very skilled with him, I topscored, and I only throw stickies at the feet of players witout a good aim. I was feeling he’s a little fragger with more nades and reduced CoolDown.
He’s an engineer, not an assault. Killing easily assault mercs with that class should’nt be allowed. He’s a strong engineer, right, but with too many explosive-power.
After this game with him, I feel like maybe reduce AoE may be not enough, his CD is too short.
We need to avoid spam and reward skill, so reduce CD is one of the way to get it. Reduce AoE will reduce spamming effect too.

(globalGale) #34

TTk =/= dps

Dps also does not opt in the initial alpha strike.

Youre dps might be a gazillion, if the inital strike blasts you away before you can get his 120 hp down.

The instagib is the largest issue with the stickies. having a fletcher on the enemy team just makes it so that people can only play the slowe and more beefy mercs

(Jostabeere) #35

[quote=“ClemClem7;163517”]I agree with this point ^^
It was to point out the fact that he has 3 of it, because only one of it can easily instakill low Hp mercs within the AoE which is too large.
I get often instakill by a sticky throw at 1m from when I play sparks, just blind throw

EDIT: I just did a game with him, even I’m not very skilled with him, I topscored, and I only throw stickies at the feet of players witout a good aim. I was feeling he’s a little fragger with more nades and reduced CoolDown.
He’s an engineer, not an assault. Killing easily assault mercs with that class should’nt be allowed. He’s a strong engineer, right, but with too many explosive-power.
After this game with him, I feel like maybe reduce AoE may be not enough, his CD is too short.
We need to avoid spam and reward skill, so reduce CD is one of the way to get it. Reduce AoE will reduce spamming effect too.[/quote]

The AoE of stickies is really small. I always experience that if I don’t stick, I almost never get a kill since even, like 1 meter away from the stickie is enough to easily survive it.
Somebody should do some research on actual AoE range of the bombs.

(ClemClem7) #36

Stickies are not like naders spams, if the player detonate it quickly after throwing, it explode immediatly at victim’s feet, so you can’t escape the area of damage. May be the AoE is not very big (I don’t know) but the radius in wich it kills weak merc is, I think after few games playing Fletcher, too big. It’s not about exact number, it’s about feeling. I killed too many people with stickies, without even aim well. I just throw it in the right direction, mid air without any jumping penalties (it’s another problem, but it’s not the debate here). I’m not a pro player of fletcher, but it was too easy for me to get kills. After sparks nerf, phantom nerf… I don’t see why is one merc so powerful. His ability is too strong, he can’t be a engineer. For me there are 2 possibilities
-He’s not an engineer anymore (bad choice)
-Let nerf a bit his ability, then he will not be too strong.
Even he’s the strongest engineer, he can’t be as strong as an assault merc, otherwise it’s not balanced.
I don’t want him to be nerfed as sparks or phantom was, that was absolutely shit, they’re quite useless now. But may be a change which can avoid stickies spam. May be time for him to use his weapons. And he has good weapons, even his secondary is good enough to be the primary of sparks.

(Haki) #37

I feel like it comes down to the problem of ranked vs pubs.

We’re not gonna find a perfect solution to balance him(or as a matter of fact almost anything) as long as the people debating here come from different stand points.

It only makes sense that people exlusively playing pubs find him strong, especially during his free rotation, while people from a competitive standpoint realize his non-reliability in comparison to bushwhacker.

Personally I wouldn’t mind a small(!!!) decrease for the blast radius of the stickies, but reducing the max damage or amount of stickies isn’t the way to go imo.

(TheHel1x) #38

[quote=“BananaSlug;163151”]i would decrease blast radius soo noobs will be bad with him and better players still would be good
(by 10%/20%)[/quote]

[quote=“globalGale;163251”]You’d be doing a bad job if you expose yourself that much. However, due to the extremely low TTK on stickies. You’d still be able to (by adding latteral movement) avoid shots effeciently and still hit them.

Fletcher is just all-round to effective at any range at the moment. Due to broken stickies[/quote]

How many hours have you PLAYED as Fletcher? I think if you give him a good 10 hours you will find that he is definitely not OP like you thought.

[quote=“ShotgunRagtime;163436”]I’m going to go out on a limb and say – I don’t think any of the mercs are overpowered. Some mercs are UP, like Proxy, Phantom, Thunder, etc, but there aren’t any mercs who just tower over the others in their category.

Fletcha competes with Bushie, and they’re about on the same level. No need to make Fletcha worse and hand the meta solely to the Busherino.

I’ve noticed that this community is very inconstant with its opinions. I remember back before the sticky nerf, people thought Fletcha was fine, even a bit weak, and that the nerf was unjustified. Now, people think he’s OP. People used to think Arty was terrible, but now he’s apparently very strong (hasn’t been buffed…)

Hell, now the PDP is OP, the Blish is fine, etc etc. Too many people going into the forums with “nerf this, buff that” – it’s really difficult to even understand what people want anymore. I blame the stale meta.

I’d like to see what happens with the new merc, and the other mercs, in the next update before we touch Fletcha.
[/quote]

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

And not only are some mercs UP… some just don’t fit in this game. Thunder, Phantom and Rhino (Not 100% sure on Rhino yet but maybe) don’t fit, they break up the flow of the game and just don’t seem like they should exist.

(ClemClem7) #39

[quote=“Haki;163561”]I feel like it comes down to the problem of ranked vs pubs.

Personally I wouldn’t mind a small(!!!) decrease for the blast radius of the stickies, but reducing the max damage or amount of stickies isn’t the way to go imo.[/quote]

Max damage must stay the same, to not penalize good players who can stuck people, but it should penalize people who can’t stick nades on other players, to rise skill level needed to well play him, like every other mercs
My point of view is that we need avoid skilless spam, and reward skilled players, either in pubs or in ranked.

(bgyoshi) #40

The only problem with stickies is their availability. Being able to effectively go only 2 or 3 seconds without a sticky is unacceptable. If you remove the ability hold 3 stickies, Fletcher is fixed.

Give him just 1 sticky every 10 seconds, and let him have up to 3 active stickies (like now). In example, you would throw a sticky, wait 10 seconds, throw a second, wait 10 seconds, then throw a third. You would never be able to throw more than 1 at a time, but up to 3 can be laid out. You should never be able to 1 shot with stickies on anything but a direct stick or if the opponent stands in that inner radius.

Anyone that says Fletcher is hard to play has never played or never been good with Demoman.