Does Phantom make the game more fun?

(GregHouseMD) #61

@ThaiSan

Where do you get your numbers from?

Rhino only has 200 HP, so that’s probably the source of your confusion. Phantom has that with fresh shields, or at least very close to it ( some people were saying 190 HP ). Considering Phantom gets to dictate when fights are going to happen, and the short cooldown, the fact his shields drain naturally is way less important.

Discussing the SMGs is kinda pointless without numbers, and right now I can’t find them. I will get back to it if I can find the thread.

Just for the record, too, it’s not only two mercs Phantom can one-shot, but five. Your post basically reads like a propaganda piece of half-truths, untruths, and things that are technically true but irrelevant.

(ostmustis) #62

even if I get better score with another merc ppl will whine 10 times as much when I play phantom its just that the whine gets replaced by “phantom so op”.

(Thai-San) #63

@GregHouseMD

Ups, sorry about the wrong numbers with Rhino. Played him once.

I played him a couple of times now and a Proxy with full HP always survived a strong Katana hit. I quess you are talking about someone with the “Chopper” augment? Or does the Katana have sweetspots? None of it? Then who are the other 3?

I can’t say if any of my infromation wrong or right, it’s just what I noticed during my playtime with the new update.
Why are you so pissed? Calm down :slight_smile:

(Mayple) #64

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;44430”]How doesn’t he belong but Vasilli or Rhino do? Or hell even Aura and her ability for that matter.

The reality is the Phantom is only as good as you allow him to be, his effectiveness is amplified by lack of communication and teamwork, the better you are at those things the harder it is for him to do work.

That said, I wish they’d drop the armor or at least make 50% instead, and just give him full invisibility unless he sprints, jumps, or takes damage. Then he’d actually be useful in comp.[/quote]

Vasilli and Rhino both have drawbacks which make them fit a lot more in the current system. You have to have good aim to make Vasilli work and you can tell how many poor snipers there are from last free rotation. Rhino is also extremely slow especially when he’s spinning up his gun.

Phantom is only as good as you allow him to be is true, but that goes for just about every merc. The question of him being overpowered or not isn’t really the question, its just that playing against him is just not a fun experience as it doesn’t seem to take much skill to be effective with him unlike the other mercs you mentioned.

(watsyurdeal) #65

[quote=“Mayple;45036”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;44430”]How doesn’t he belong but Vasilli or Rhino do? Or hell even Aura and her ability for that matter.

The reality is the Phantom is only as good as you allow him to be, his effectiveness is amplified by lack of communication and teamwork, the better you are at those things the harder it is for him to do work.

That said, I wish they’d drop the armor or at least make 50% instead, and just give him full invisibility unless he sprints, jumps, or takes damage. Then he’d actually be useful in comp.[/quote]

Vasilli and Rhino both have drawbacks which make them fit a lot more in the current system. You have to have good aim to make Vasilli work and you can tell how many poor snipers there are from last free rotation. Rhino is also extremely slow especially when he’s spinning up his gun.

Phantom is only as good as you allow him to be is true, but that goes for just about every merc. The question of him being overpowered or not isn’t really the question, its just that playing against him is just not a fun experience as it doesn’t seem to take much skill to be effective with him unlike the other mercs you mentioned.[/quote]

So if we’re going with that argument, how fun is it to play against Medics when they keep reviving everyone you try to kill? Or playing on offense and losing cause the enemy team has a ton of Engineers?

How exactly is Vasilli fun to play against? Even just a decent one? When he’s constantly at a distance and safe, and when you do close in, his machine pistols still do more than good enough damage to fight most people up close, especially when lands a bodyshot on you.

The argument of he’s not fun to play against, I can understand that purely because of the shield, but the rest of him…EVERY merc has little quirks about them that are a challenge to deal with. So before you go and complain, look at the other mercs and tell me, in the scenarios where they excel, are they any more fun to deal with?

Again, I’m not saying his cloak doesn’t need to be nerfed, I absolutely agree with that. But people are making him out to be WAY worse than he actually is.

(GregHouseMD) #66

@ThaiSan
Katana does 90 damage on a strong attack, so it should take out Proxy just fine. With Chopper, it should do 108 damage, enough to kill Aura, Sparks, Proxy, Kira, and Vassili.

(Conqelson) #67

Terrible, terrible idea. I’m sure the devs woefully regret the decision but the damage is done, they can’t just remove him and refund the money, it’s not realistic. Invisible ninjas with swords don’t belong in first person shooters, whoever had that idea should be fired if they haven’t been already.

(Mayple) #68

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;45044”]
So if we’re going with that argument, how fun is it to play against Medics when they keep reviving everyone you try to kill? Or playing on offense and losing cause the enemy team has a ton of Engineers?

How exactly is Vasilli fun to play against? Even just a decent one? When he’s constantly at a distance and safe, and when you do close in, his machine pistols still do more than good enough damage to fight most people up close, especially when lands a bodyshot on you.

The argument of he’s not fun to play against, I can understand that purely because of the shield, but the rest of him…EVERY merc has little quirks about them that are a challenge to deal with. So before you go and complain, look at the other mercs and tell me, in the scenarios where they excel, are they any more fun to deal with?

Again, I’m not saying his cloak doesn’t need to be nerfed, I absolutely agree with that. But people are making him out to be WAY worse than he actually is.[/quote]

I’ll agree that Sparks is probably the least fun to play against because she can revive at range. However the other medics all have to run on top of someone who died to revive them putting them into harms way and they already have a lower health pool than most mercs. Also as the person is being revived you can shoot them and gib them to prevent the revive. If the enemy team is full of engineers having skyhammers, fraggers, naders, vasillis should in the long run out kill the other team giving you room to handle the objectives.

In terms of playing against Vasilli… it depends what people see as being fun. If a sniper can take me out with a headshot (gib and everything) then I know that he had a good shot to take me out so I don’t get frustrated by it. I also mostly play Vasilli and play him rather differently than most (not sitting in the way back safe from everyone), so if the enemy team has a good one it makes the game more exciting for me trying to counter him while still being relevant to the game’s objectives. I can see where you’re coming from if you’re being sniped by a good player and feeling seemingly hopeless against him.

I feel like the difference between Phantom and the other mercs is the idea that he’s invisible while he gets to you, then he one hits you with his katana. It feels like he didn’t do much work to get to that point and that frustrates people when on top of that he can one shot 1/3rd of the mercs available.

However, I do agree with you that the problem stems not from his invisibility but from his damage shield. I think that should just be removed to make him a bit more vulnerable when using the invisibility. I think tweaking the invisibility to make it last longer but have a longer CD would also be nice as well.

Either way, I don’t think he’s fun to play against currently but its true that most people are acting like the end of the world.

(Whoisthis) #69

[quote=“GregHouseMD;44415”]
Needless to say, I am not happy about this in the least. There’s no counter play here, no opportunity to play smart. With other mercs, at least there’s only certain areas you need to avoid ( i.e. tight passages, or corners ). With Phantom it’s literally everything, all the time, and most of the time it doesn’t matter, as it takes about as much firepower to bring him down as it takes to bring down Rhino.[/quote]

I think the biggest problem is he is too fast. Lots of people say he is no faster than Skyhammer, but the fact is, everyone is faster with their melee weapon, Phantom included. So even though you are “technically” faster, the fact is that you are firing at his shield with your gun while he runs straight at you with his knife. Even a proxy or a sparks can’t backpedal away from him fast enough. If you just run he pulls out his KEK. It just doesn’t make any sense. He is wearing heavy armor and a heavy sword, he should be one of the slowest players in the game, right with Rhino. If he plays well and sneaks up on people and kills them, not a big deal, but rounding a corner and running straight at a light/medium class and slicing them down shouldn’t be an option. Maybe a solution is that when his shield is up he moves like molasses. I’m okay with that too.

(Whoisthis) #70

That happens when 6 people have no situational awareness whatsoever…
I yesterday played Phantom nearly without cloak on one server and still ran a really good K/D because players NEVER looked behind each other or checked any corners i could sit in the corner then walk behind a group of three and kill them one after another without using cloak once…

Communication, Teamwork and Awareness are needed but a lot of people don’t have that or use that.
[/quote]

You obviously play a lot in competitive which I can’t seem to get to work (different issue/bug). So I play in pubs and if you can get 1/2 the people to play together you are really lucky. The only thing that helps this is that most of the Phantoms are also idiots: spawn camping, deathmatching, etc. that they don’t even recognize the objectives and their team loses while the phantom is working on their 12K combat scores. That hardly makes the game more fun though.

(Whoisthis) #71

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;44483”]So you want me to baby you about things you should already be doing like…

  1. Sticking together, not going out on your own where you can be picked off or outnumbered.

  2. Using your mic to communicate where the enemy is and what your status is

  3. Aiming for the enemy’s head

  4. Strafing so that your crosshair lines up with their head, and paying attention to and predicting where the enemy will strafe. Like, are they right handed? They may strafe to your left, or vice versa. Is there a wall next to them? Is there a corner you can use to bait them? Simple stuff like that.

  5. The cloak emits an audible hum, like I showed in my video, you can easily hear it and look around for him. And his cloak is not completely invisible.

  6. If he does come after you, back pedal, obviously.

  7. The main trick to getting him is paying attention to the noise, and where he typically likes to go. Is often in the same place? Expect him there.

  8. If he’s using his gun it’s just a matter of out dm’ing him like any other merc.

This is all stuff you SHOULD already be doing, and if you’re not, start doing it.[/quote]

Okay, that sounds wonderful for competitive, which I can’t play (bug apparently) He is DESTROYING pubs.

  1. Most of the players aren’t coordinating, of course neither are the phantoms who just run around slaughtering whatever they can to rack up a score.

  2. 98% of pub players don’t use a mic, 90% of them don’t know where the button even is to use the mic.

  3. Aiming for the head only works after his shield is down. The shield absorbs a lot of damage, especially for light classes when he is closing fast.

  4. Wow, I wish everyone I played with was a l33t player like you, but no, most of them are new players or okay players. Are they right-handed, ruserious?

  5. Audible Hum, yes, I will listen harder for that between the gunfire, explosions, game yelling, people yelling, etc.

  6. I play Proxy and Sparks. If I backpedal with my gun shooting him, he is faster than me with his sword. If I turn to run, he shoots me in the back with the SMG. This would actually be my fix. SLOW HIM DOWN. He is wearing heavy armor, make him move like Rhino, or like molasses with his shield up and Skyhammer without it up.

  7. I usually find his favorite place is behind me at the spawn point.

  8. True, if your a medium or heavy class you can easily take him down with a gun and no shield.
    I will immediately quit my job and take up my professional gaming career playing Dirty Bomb. I will also lambaste other players for not doing it whenever I see they have been killed by a phantom.

(GregHouseMD) #72

[quote=“Whoisthis;45129”][quote=“GregHouseMD;44415”]
Needless to say, I am not happy about this in the least. There’s no counter play here, no opportunity to play smart. With other mercs, at least there’s only certain areas you need to avoid ( i.e. tight passages, or corners ). With Phantom it’s literally everything, all the time, and most of the time it doesn’t matter, as it takes about as much firepower to bring him down as it takes to bring down Rhino.[/quote]

I think the biggest problem is he is too fast. Lots of people say he is no faster than Skyhammer, but the fact is, everyone is faster with their melee weapon, Phantom included. So even though you are “technically” faster, the fact is that you are firing at his shield with your gun while he runs straight at you with his knife. Even a proxy or a sparks can’t backpedal away from him fast enough. If you just run he pulls out his KEK. It just doesn’t make any sense. He is wearing heavy armor and a heavy sword, he should be one of the slowest players in the game, right with Rhino. If he plays well and sneaks up on people and kills them, not a big deal, but rounding a corner and running straight at a light/medium class and slicing them down shouldn’t be an option. Maybe a solution is that when his shield is up he moves like molasses. I’m okay with that too.

[/quote]

According to in-game stats, Phantom has a speed of 410, compared to Skyhammer’s 400. I think this may make Phantom the fastest merc relative to his HP: Skyhammer has the same HP, but less speed, while Bushwhacker has the same speed, but less HP.

I disagree that speed is the problem, though. In my opinion, it comes down to his armor. With it, Phantom can afford to ignore the first 80 or so points of damage, which is something like two headshots with most guns. It basically means any Phantom worth his salt gets 1 - 2 seconds of any fight free, and can use that time to close the distance, get a into a superior position, or retreat. I think this is a bigger advantage that it may seem at first glance.

Nevermind that, for a limited time ( and the limit doesn’t really matter, as you’re likely to be under fire anyway ), he’s got the speed of Bushwhacker and the HP of Rhino. What it comes down to is the fact he can afford to lose it. It’s back after 6 seconds anyway. If Phantom decides to retreat, he can always try again 6 seconds later. How many mercs can do that?

(KayDubz) #73

Not at all. I notice people quitting games when a Phantom joins now. I do the same…I just try to avoid them because it ruins many games. Especially maps where a spawn area is big.

For example…now its common for a phantom or two to camp at spawn at the last area on Trainyard. Since the area is spread out, you cannot tell which direction they will come from.

SD is about to lose me as a player…and the negative Steam reviews and bad press on both reddit and Youtube will kill this game once Overwatch arrives. There’s no reason this merc should have been released prior to any sort of testing with just a few servers.

I mean, stuff like this makes you remember why Brink failed…and why people gave Arkham Origins multiplayer a hard time. How the hell did they think it was a good idea to come aspects of a tank, stealth, and melee classes…while also giving the character speed and a good gun?

And the fact that they made the shield depletion never carry over into the HP pool is a downright rookie mistake. I cannot believe these guys said they played a lot with Phantom and didnt notice where there would be a problem.

(Eddie) #74

Can you make a poll like this about aimpunch? i’d like to see those results…

(Ghosthree3) #75

There is one.

EDIT: Oh you mean like better/same/worse.

(Alchimi) #76

Sums it all up really.

That’s the only merc I see kamikaze charging in a room full of 2 ennemy mercs… Plus that armor on stealth is freaky, I can’t count all the times I saw a cloake
Also in corridors, which happens to be a big part of DB’s maps, phantom is almost invicible, even if you spot him he’s allready too close.
shooters,[/quote]

He’s the typical stealth assassin that needs a great deal of balance to be allright, and that all the trolls pick to just spam kills with little to no skill curve… And yes I know that skilled players use it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s the typical no brainer play pick.

Planetside 2 has the same type of invisible merc (snipers), but they seemed more balanced to me (even thought they were still pretty much insane in some areas).

(loonyTop) #77

He ruins the game because it takes no skill to play him yet you can still fatally influence the
game outcome. That’s not a good thing. It would be like Skyhammer having a nuke every 15 seconds. It’s bullshit. I was just in a match where there were 4 Phantoms so half my team just left meaning we had half their numbers. This is what it is doing, it’s just ruining the game. I’ve never seen people leave a game in such an exodus as I have since Phantom appeared. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth and you finish the game just being pissed off.

Planetside 2 has an invsible perk, but it’s a sniper perk and you can’t use any weapon at all whilst cloaked. As such it wasn’t used in the same way Phantom is, i.e., camp cloaked and stab in the back.

And no, people aren’t staying together to counter Phantom, if you think that now, then that is how YOU were playing. Besides, playing as a squad doesn’t mean everyone is within arms reach, If I’m fixing I don’t want people near me, cos Kira/Skyhammer/Nade/Rhino wipes them all out, I want them out ahead, clearing. Or sometimes you need people to flank to the objective/medics hang back a bit, while others cover or supress the enemy. Phantom does neither of those things. He gets a kill or two then runs away until his cloak refills.

(Loki.) #78

Horrible Character design…
Shield needs to be Nerfed
If you are making a covert type character, then that character needs to be weak-sauce with added one-strike/insta-kill ability; not a Friggin-tank!

1 character in the hands of a semi-skilled player shouldnt dominate an entire match…

Nerf the crap out of him or get rid him…

(TheDoctorHax) #79

The main reason why I don’t like phantom is because I main proxy and sparks or aura. So the fact that even if I spot a phantom, its already too late because he can lunge and one shot me before I can take down his cloak. This means that I cant play my favorite classes in the game if the other team has a phantom, which they almost always do.

(Halosheep) #80

@loonyHour said:
The main reason why I don’t like phantom is because I main proxy and sparks or aura. So the fact that even if I spot a phantom, its already too late because he can lunge and one shot me before I can take down his cloak. This means that I cant play my favorite classes in the game if the other team has a phantom, which they almost always do.

Exactly this. I cannot play the classes I bought because I only wanted light classes. They fit in with the meta of the time when I bought them (I usually run proxy, kira, and aura). I can’t find a good setup now, I want to keep playing those three characters but I need to swap one out for Fragger because phantom is almost useless against him. Unless something changes I’ll be forever disappointed.