Does Nader feel like the most unskillful elements of FPS rolled into one?

(KayDubz) #61

[quote=“XavienH5;38351”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38226”]Also, I think there needs to be a detonation time on her marty of at least 1.5 seconds. Any other game with martyrdom is at least 2 seconds. Her’s feels much less than that. Doesnt even feel like a full second.

What do you guys think?[/quote]

That’s actually a way better suggestion that other idiots’.[/quote]

This is the thing almost everyone glossed over. Thanks for noticing it. Instead of people responding to the details and the tweaks I recommended, they would rather say “its fine…dont knife…get experience…etc etc” Even though I clearly stated I don’t get killed by her nades much at all, and I keep my distance.

I simply gave a suggestion on how to better balance out a character in a beta game that is constantly tweaking things. If the devs end up tweaking the timer on martyrdom, I think itll be all good. It’ll provide less reward for dying…and Im sure they are already studying this with whatever metrics they use.

I mean heck, they already made revives have a 1 second freeze on your body…and that jump from 0 to 1 second revive definitely makes a difference in game play. So a .5 to 1 second increase to Nader’s martyrdom would surely tweak things out properly imo.[quote=“t3hsquirr3l;38373”]Without getting too anecdotal and attempting to avoid hyperbole, Nader is a merc with a low skill floor and also a low skill ceiling. What I’m saying is, Nader is by design noob friendly.

I do see skilled players die to 'nades and martyrdom, but it’s generally situational and not reliable as a means of dealing with skilled players.

Nader allows new players to feel powerful and get kills vs other new players, and occasionally against better players. It’s good for new players to have access to these tools, so they don’t hit an insurmountable wall of skilled players. Also, the grenade launcher cannot be spammed indefinitely. At one point or another you’ll have to rely on your submachine gun, developing skills that will allow you to graduate to other mercs that may have a higher skill floor.

Experienced players discover that other mercs have a higher skill ceiling, meaning that with skill and practice they can be more effective than Nader (see Fragger, even Fletcher) in the same situations.

Nader will always do well in low-ranked PUGs, but starts to disappear in higher ranked matches. If you do see them in the higher ranks, they rarely out-perform other classes.

I’m not afraid of tweaks to her, but I don’t personally see the need at this point. The developers would have a better handle on the metrics and feedback than I would though, so I leave it up to their judgement.[/quote]

Good points. Thanks for the mature and well reasoned contribution. I guess every FPS game has to have a “newb friendly” feature.

(KayDubz) #62

Really? How so? Granted her orbital strike is rather powerful, but she is very open to being killed when using it. Shes basically defenseless if someone gets up close to her. So I think it balances out rather well.

But Im curious as to your reasoning.

(Gi.Am) #63

The problem with increasing the fuse on Martyrdom is that this is not any of the other shooters. Mercs are overall very fast. The slowest is Rhino with a movement speed of 350 (that is 350 unreal units per seconds presumably). A Martyrdom nade is infact a Fragger nader. A Fragger nade has a Radius of 240 units (per official wiki).
Therefore every Merc even if he stands right on top of Nader can get out of range. The only ones that get caught in the blast, are those that weren’t aware. Stopped their escape for whatever reason. Didn’t reacted fast enough. Or decided to move closer to do a finisher.

We could increase the fuse time, to help those that have problems with area awareness / reaction times (or if echo data shows that Nader kills disproportionaly often with Martyrdom). But the time window, very fast approaches the point where someone can finish Nader and still get away. At that point, it lost all its purpose. discouraging people from mindlessly melee finishing everyone (and therefore shaking up the status quo a little bit). And helping Nader with her overall DPS (which would mean increasing normal nade damage to compensate).

(Mr-Penguin) #64

Really? How so? Granted her orbital strike is rather powerful, but she is very open to being killed when using it. Shes basically defenseless if someone gets up close to her. So I think it balances out rather well.

But Im curious as to your reasoning.
[/quote]
You can switch weapons while you use the pointer. The laser can sweep the floor with unaware or simply unfortunate opponents-just like Nader’s launcher. However, Kira’s laser can do the job much faster and effectively with a higher amount of skill than it takes to use the launcher.

(watsyurdeal) #65

Talks about Naders rewarding poor play
doesn’t realize nades are projectiles, in a game full of hitscan
prob has never tried to hit directs with her

(noupperlobeman) #66

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;38444”]>Talks about Naders rewarding poor play

doesn’t realize nades are projectiles, in a game full of hitscan
prob has never tried to hit directs with her[/quote]

This isn’t 4chan. Spare us from the meme arrows, nerd

(affableTricycle) #67

Nader main here. I’m gonna ignore the implicit “you’re bad” comments sprinkled throughout the thread and give honest feedback.

  1. Nader is not unskilled. If you have poor positioning and aim you will still get a shit KDR.
  2. The nade launcher is fine. It’s designed to be spammy area denial, that’s why it gives xp for splash damage. In other games the nade launchers fill a similar role to Fragger’s pineapples, designed to actually kill shit. The Lactic is not made for kills, it is made for making the enemy GTFO and that is what it does.
  3. Marty can piss off for all I care, it’s a worthless ability that is only good for annoying shotgun users and sweet revenge. I’d gladly get rid of Martyrdom in exchange for some other small buff, such as having MPs rather than pistols.
(KayDubz) #68

Really? How so? Granted her orbital strike is rather powerful, but she is very open to being killed when using it. Shes basically defenseless if someone gets up close to her. So I think it balances out rather well.

But Im curious as to your reasoning.
[/quote]
You can switch weapons while you use the pointer. The laser can sweep the floor with unaware or simply unfortunate opponents-just like Nader’s launcher. However, Kira’s laser can do the job much faster and effectively with a higher amount of skill than it takes to use the launcher.
[/quote]
Sure you can sweep the floor and switch weapons…but then people can more easily get out of the way of it. I find that its easy to avoid the laser once Kira has to start defending herself with a different weapon.

I feel its balanced out, but Im not adverse to the devs tweaking her if she is eventually deemed over powered.

(noupperlobeman) #69

[quote=“affableTricycle;38460”]
3. Marty can piss off for all I care, it’s a worthless ability that is only good for annoying shotgun users and sweet revenge. I’d gladly get rid of Martyrdom in exchange for some other small buff, such as having MPs rather than pistols.[/quote]

I think it would be better for the community as
awhole, honestly. Think about the implications of
removing martyrdom:

  1. Naders wont gib themselves anymore. Which
    translates to more revives in the presence of heals,
    which means stronger offensive pushes / defenses.

  2. Nader gets some sort of offensive buff in the form
    of abilities, health, or weapons.

  3. The community stops bitching about martyrdom.

(watsyurdeal) #70

Even if martyrdom was removed y’all would complain about something else. Removing it wouldn’t fix your awareness, just give one less thing to worry about…out of the 22 mercs that will be in this game.

(giftedStatue) #71

Nader’s grenades =/= noob tubes
Actually a massive difference. Noob tubes explode against the ground, nader’s grenades bounce. You have time to react since her grenades have a timer, unless she hit you directly (which takes SKILL)

Even with martyrdom Fragger is still way more viable than Nader, take it away and the disparity between them will only grow

(brawnyJester) #72

Whining about nader when the KEK-10 exists in the game in its current form.

OK

Complaining about martyrdom when fragger can cook a grenade close/midrange and you have almost little chance of evading it.

OK

(GregHouseMD) #73

I enjoy Nader a lot, but I never pick Nader over Fragger if I just want to play well. Nader’s grenades get you a few kills, but good players will reposition and avoid them. Fragger just blows them up on the first grenade, problem solved, move on to the next one. Also, Fragger’s primary ( I use M4 ) is much more versatile. Plus, he has more HP.

Nader does better in a very limited capacity, but gives up a lot more than she gets in return. Martyrdom is simply not a part of the equation; it’s far too unreliable for that. I literally can’t remember the last time I died to it, as evading it is ridiculously easy. It’s really only a problem if you don’t pay attention ( which is your fault ), or you didn’t react in time ( which is your fault ), or you got cornered ( which is your fault ), or you got stuck trying to get away ( which is your fault ).

If you watch your step and stay mindful of your surroundings, you won’t die to Martyrdom. You might die to other stuff while trying to evade Martyrdom ( say you’re forced to escape into an exposed area ), but that’s the cost of doing business.

It also means you need to learn the value of GTFOing. Which is probably the most valuable skill you can have in this game anyway.

(noupperlobeman) #74

[quote=“brawnyJester;38522”]Whining about nader when the KEK-10 exists in the game in its current form.

OK

Complaining about martyrdom when fragger can cook a grenade close/midrange and you have almost little chance of evading it.

OK[/quote]

But the fragger has to cook the grenade, putting himself in danger
as he can’t defend himself. It’s a tactical choice that has to be actively
made. The nader doesn’t have that risk / reward. She already lost, but
gets the chance for a free kill.

I don’t advocate removing or changing martyrdom, I just wanted to
point out the flaws in your logic.

(watsyurdeal) #75

[quote=“noupperlobeman;38632”]

But the fragger has to cook the grenade, putting himself in danger
as he can’t defend himself. It’s a tactical choice that has to be actively
made. [/quote]

http://www.somegif.com/gifsmall/Lolololol-best-gif.jpg

Um, no he doesn’t, Fragger can cook the nade behind cover and then throw it. He doesn’t have to expose himself at all.

Nader has to nail direct shots on a moving target. Unless you’re the type that just stands there thinking it’s safe.

(brawnyJester) #76

There’s like a bug with nader pipes where u direct someone and it falls off like u hit a wall.

Happens a lot if you’re really close range although I dunno if this is because grenades have a minimum fuse time before you can deal dmg with a direct.

And kira is bad because…

you can deny a plant/defuse for the entire duration of the beam with impunity

(god1) #77

[quote=“brawnyJester;38696”]There’s like a bug with nader pipes where u direct someone and it falls off like u hit a wall.

Happens a lot if you’re really close range although I dunno if this is because grenades have a minimum fuse time before you can deal dmg with a direct.[/quote]
That is not a bug, it’s intended that the nades don’t explode on direct hit until they’ve been in the air for a specific amount of time.

(Gi.Am) #78

Not a bug the Nades have an arming time. Personaly I would prefer if it gets removed its pretty annoying. And its not like it would be to OP, you would take self damage when they off in your face.

(irresistiblePoll) #79

Honestly once i was entering in a small corridor (spawn one in chapel for defense), 3 enemies at sight. DING DING DING I kill the 1st one, who’s a nader.Then i’ve the time to get the 2nd and i’m finally coming for the 3rd and then… BOUM martyrdom. Seriously! in dis case it’s not a lack of awareness but it’s only stopping game’s flow, killing skill. Too bad, really

(irresistiblePoll) #80

Moreover i think that a merc balance should be used, as someone said before, full sniper/nader/skyhammer teams just kill the game.