Does Nader feel like the most unskillful elements of FPS rolled into one?

(KayDubz) #41

PS - I wouldnt be surprised if in the future shes nerfed, or they disallow martyrdom completely in competitions. Thats all really.

(Jojack) #42

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38283”]Jojack,
All this said, theres a reason other FPS game comps and tournaments like ESL ban martyrdom and frown upon the game mechanic. It says a lot when many legitimate competitions dont allow use the reward-for-death mechanics.[/quote]

None of those games had a martyrdom that was implemented the way it is in this game (to my knowledge). Mainly, that everyone knows who has martyrdom the instant they see the player in question. And also, this game has activated martyrdom instead of automatic like any other game I’ve seen. Also, you can make sure martyrdom never goes off by gibbing from a distance.

edit - and no, you don’t see experienced players die to martyrdom all the time. I’m calling you out on your hyperbole here. You can keep saying it if you want. You are only damaging your own argument.

#43

Just curious, what level are you?

(fetchingSeahorse) #44

OP, you say martyrdom takes no skill. This isn’t true. To elaborate, let’s look at the possible situations:
Noob Nader vs noob opponent.
Noob Nader vs skilled opponent.
Skilled Nader vs Noob opponent.
Skilled Nader vs skilled opponent.

For noob vs noob, the noob opponent is probably going to walk over to knife nader or walk by Nader either not knowing about martyrdom or not having learned to avoid it.
For noob Nader vs skilled opponent, the enemy will almost always avoid the downed Nader and shoot them from far away, or just fake them into triggering their martyrdom uslessly.
Skilled naders will rack in martyrdom kills vs noobs. They not only have the noobs running at them, but they know how to position themselves so the noobs can’t escape.
Skilled vs skilled, the only kills Nader will get are when she positions herself in such a way that the other guy can’t escape. This is Nader playing well.
In short, only in Nader vs noob does martyrdom not take skill.
Also, you can’t compare martyrdom in CoD to dirty bomb. In CoD, ANYONE could have martyrdom. In dirty, only the very recognizable Nader has martyrdom.

(KayDubz) #45

Just curious, what level are you?

[/quote]
First account was 15 on my bro’s steam account. I was actually very reluctant to download Steam for years onto my pc. I was so used to just using a game’s individual client.

I eventually said screw it and installed it on my own PC with my own account that has my name from other FPS games Ive played in the past. Currently back up to level 11. So yeah, I have enough experience playing the game.[quote=“Jojack;38285”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38283”]Jojack,
All this said, theres a reason other FPS game comps and tournaments like ESL ban martyrdom and frown upon the game mechanic. It says a lot when many legitimate competitions dont allow use the reward-for-death mechanics.[/quote]

None of those games had a martyrdom that was implemented the way it is in this game (to my knowledge). Mainly, that everyone knows who has martyrdom the instant they see the player in question. And also, this game has activated martyrdom instead of automatic like any other game I’ve seen. Also, you can make sure martyrdom never goes off by gibbing from a distance.

edit - and no, you don’t see experienced players die to martyrdom all the time. I’m calling you out on your hyperbole here. You can keep saying it if you want. You are only damaging your own argument.[/quote]
Whatever you say buddy.

Youre trying to tell me what I do or do not see because youre that bothered by my viewpoint. Deal with it. I frequently see people over level 15 get killed with martrydom. And yes, Ive seen it in competitive matches too.

(Jojack) #46

That might happen, if Nader was ever played in competitions. She’s very rarely on the merc roster in competitions because…she probably needs a buff. Just like Aura, Proxy and Rhino will probably need a buff of some sort if SD ever wants to see them in comp. Can you imagine the rioting in the streets if that ever happened?

edit - or they will finally need to nerf Sawbonez, Fragger and Bushwhacker.

(stealthyBass) #47

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38235”][quote=“stealthyBass;38233”][quote=“god1;38228”]
Martyrdom is completely fine in its current state, you’re an idiot if you’re getting killed by it.[/quote]

Came here to pretty much say this. [/quote]
Yeah, and Ive read things on steam saying the same thing about Nader and her launcher in the past…and then the developers nerfed her anyway. Seriously though think critically about my earlier question.

For a game that touts gunplay and skill, isnt it a contradiction when people get kills from nades that blow up in under 1 second after dying? Especially in a close quarters battle where you have a slim to nil chance of avoiding it, I find it very noob rewarding.
[/quote]

Well isn’t skill being able to not get blown up after the first time by of seeing that it’s a thing? Of course barring a Nader dying out of sight and you walking into her range but still it’s really not a big deal.

(KayDubz) #48

Anyways, good discussion gents. Im off to play.

(Jojack) #49

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38288”]Whatever you say buddy.

Youre trying to tell me what I do or do not see because youre that bothered by my viewpoint. Deal with it. I frequently see people over level 15 get killed with martrydom. And yes, Ive seen it in competitive matches too.
[/quote]

You said you see it all the time. You don’t. You might have seen it before. You might have seen it a couple or even a few times. You don’t see it all the time. That’s hyperbole.

And you didn’t touch the aspects of martyrdom I pointed out that differentiate it in this game from the way it was on CoD.

(fubar) #50

Wont happen. Ever.

Martydom is not an issue, nor has it ever been. If you die to martyrdom it’s due to your own bad play and positioning.

Naders should rarely ever get a martyrdom kill as is, given her ability requiring to be used from distance.

I’ve tried so many times to intentionally suicide into packs of players, in comp, to get that extra gib or even kill whenever the situation presented itself, you have no idea how rare it is to pull off, really.

Not to mention the insane amount of accidental teamkills by unaware Naders and misuse of martyrdom, lol.

(KayDubz) #51

[quote=“Jojack;38294”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38288”]Whatever you say buddy.

Youre trying to tell me what I do or do not see because youre that bothered by my viewpoint. Deal with it. I frequently see people over level 15 get killed with martrydom. And yes, Ive seen it in competitive matches too.
[/quote]

You said you see it all the time. You don’t. You might have seen it before. You might have seen it a couple or even a few times. You don’t see it all the time. That’s hyperbole.

And you didn’t touch the aspects of martyrdom I pointed out that differentiate it in this game from the way it was on CoD.

[/quote]
I see it at least once a game with a Nader in it.

Again, stop trying to tell me what I do or do not see. Get over it.

PS - And yes you can recognize Nader unlike in COD…but that doesnt change the fact that people get rewarded at times for death. Peace out.

(Backuplight) #52

Mandatory rotation-week “This merc is OP because…” thread? Excellent! The “I’m right and won’t listen to anyone else’s point of view” is a bit dry though. If you’re dying a lot to martyrdom, and all the replies to the thread are saying it isn’t OP/is fine as it is, I feel like you should be the one to change it up, not the merc.

(Guilte) #53

I find Kira way worse.

(DeaDmaN2be) #54

I’m fine with martyrdom as it is but I read this a lot in the past and all this “I never died by martyrdom cause I longjumped away”. I don’t believe it.
E.g. you enter the small room left side of the big street on Bridge and suddenly a Nader faces you inside the room. You’re Proxy and you’re skilled so you shoot her but it’s normal that you receive some hits too and when Nader is down and you’re nearly on top of her, you can longjump away whatever you want, with lower HP than max the blast radius kills you nevertheless from time to time.
As I said, fine with it but don’t tell me everyone of you allways is possible to dodge marty.

(Ghosthree3) #55

[quote=“DeaDmaN;38339”]I’m fine with martyrdom as it is but I read this a lot in the past and all this “I never died by martyrdom cause I longjumped away”. I don’t believe it.
E.g. you enter the small room left side of the big street on Bridge and suddenly a Nader faces you inside the room. You’re Proxy and you’re skilled so you shoot her but it’s normal that you receive some hits too and when Nader is down and you’re nearly on top of her, you can longjump away whatever you want, with lower HP than max the blast radius kills you nevertheless from time to time.
As I said, fine with it but don’t tell me everyone of you allways is possible to dodge marty.[/quote]
Dunno what to tell you, I manage it fine. Perhaps you are a little too slow before jumping?

(DeaDmaN2be) #56

Since I can’t prove the opposite there’s no sense in discussing it further on but I still doubt that no matter what your HP after an inside gunfight is you’re always able to longjump away :wink: Most of the times - sure but never ever get caught by it? No :stuck_out_tongue:

(XavienX) #57

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38226”]Also, I think there needs to be a detonation time on her marty of at least 1.5 seconds. Any other game with martyrdom is at least 2 seconds. Her’s feels much less than that. Doesnt even feel like a full second.

What do you guys think?[/quote]

That’s actually a way better suggestion that other idiots’.

(DMaster2) #58

Why is martyrdom even an issue? Don’t go knife with Nader, simple as that. As for CQC, escape as soon as you killed her.

(t3hsquirr3l) #59

Without getting too anecdotal and attempting to avoid hyperbole, Nader is a merc with a low skill floor and also a low skill ceiling. What I’m saying is, Nader is by design noob friendly.

I do see skilled players die to 'nades and martyrdom, but it’s generally situational and not reliable as a means of dealing with skilled players.

Nader allows new players to feel powerful and get kills vs other new players, and occasionally against better players. It’s good for new players to have access to these tools, so they don’t hit an insurmountable wall of skilled players. Also, the grenade launcher cannot be spammed indefinitely. At one point or another you’ll have to rely on your submachine gun, developing skills that will allow you to graduate to other mercs that may have a higher skill floor.

Experienced players discover that other mercs have a higher skill ceiling, meaning that with skill and practice they can be more effective than Nader (see Fragger, even Fletcher) in the same situations.

Nader will always do well in low-ranked PUGs, but starts to disappear in higher ranked matches. If you do see them in the higher ranks, they rarely out-perform other classes.

I’m not afraid of tweaks to her, but I don’t personally see the need at this point. The developers would have a better handle on the metrics and feedback than I would though, so I leave it up to their judgement.

(Diosito) #60

@Kay-Dubz :

Ironically, Nader has the right answer to all you problems, I will quote her:

“… It’s a shame, kind shame, buuhuu”

Nader’s Quick Chat v73

Deal with it (martyrdom)
I <3 it o:)

Abbadon
Abaddon