Does Nader feel like the most unskillful elements of FPS rolled into one?

(KayDubz) #21

[quote=“Kenzi;38252”]If you get killed by martydom, you can only blame yourself for your lack of situational awareness. Do not allow naders come near you. Keep your distance. Make sure you always have a corner you can jump behind to take cover. Hell, a simple longjump is usually enough to avoid it.

“rewards players for poor play” - allowing a nader come near you is poor play, you want to be rewarded for that?[/quote]
Again, team based game means an individual teammate who plays poorly gets other players killed.

Youre talking of individual skills I already use. But that cannot always make up for teammates who do not do the same things I do. Heck, even when I communicate to people to watch the flanks or keep distance from Naders, its not always done.

#22

And is that the nader’s fault your teammates are bad?
No.

(KayDubz) #23

[quote=“Kenzi;38256”]And is that the nader’s fault your teammates are bad?
No.[/quote]
Thats not the point. The point is that Nader is rewarded for poor gun play and death.

I mean, think about it…were people wrong when they complained to devs about her in the past and they ended up nerfing her launcher a bit? Ive seen enough discussion on steam and in-game, where I figure another Nader tweak is needed and likely imminent.

For the life of me I cannot understand why some people on the forum are so resistant any time there’s a discussion of merc balance. It is a game in beta.

(Jojack) #24

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38245”][quote=“Jojack;38240”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38235”]

For a game that touts gunplay and skill, isnt it a contradiction when people get kills from nades that blow up in under 1 second after dying? Especially in a close quarters battle where you have a slim to nil chance of avoiding it, I find it very noob rewarding.
[/quote]

No it’s not a contradiction. Now, let me ask you. For someone that comes across as if gun play and skill are what they are good at, isn’t it a contradiction to get killed by the easiest skill in the game to avoid? There is literally no way to die to Martyrdom unless you do something stupid.
[/quote]
So if someone flanks my team, ignores their defensive position, and gets us blown up by martydom, how is that the fault of the rest of the players who played smart?[/quote]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here. I…just can’t follow. Is the Nader flanking? Who is ignoring their defensive position? I’ll just cut to the chase. If you get blown up by Martyrdom, 99% of the time it means you did something stupid. We’ve all done it. I’m not calling you stupid, I am just saying you did something stupid.

The grenade launcher shoots peas. Seriously, it’s an area denial tool. It’s very hard to get consistent kills with it unless you have a team of dumb Proxies and Auras rushing narrow corridors at you (this actually happens more than you would think). If you are consistently getting killed by the grenade launcher, you did something stupid.

Nader, in the hands of a skilled player, can be very good at slowing down choke points, diverting a rush to where you team is set up better to defend, and area denial. When playing against skilled people, she can be useful, but she’s not a very good fragger. She only shines as a fragger against the stupid or inexperienced.

She punishes the stupid and unaware without being OP against skilled people. She’s the perfect fit for a skill based game based on gun play.

(ThatRandomGuy) #25

Since this thread is producing too much salt… Can i haz a bagz of Saltz? plz?

(KayDubz) #26

[quote=“Jojack;38258”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38245”][quote=“Jojack;38240”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38235”]

For a game that touts gunplay and skill, isnt it a contradiction when people get kills from nades that blow up in under 1 second after dying? Especially in a close quarters battle where you have a slim to nil chance of avoiding it, I find it very noob rewarding.
[/quote]

No it’s not a contradiction. Now, let me ask you. For someone that comes across as if gun play and skill are what they are good at, isn’t it a contradiction to get killed by the easiest skill in the game to avoid? There is literally no way to die to Martyrdom unless you do something stupid.
[/quote]
So if someone flanks my team, ignores their defensive position, and gets us blown up by martydom, how is that the fault of the rest of the players who played smart?[/quote]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here. I…just can’t follow. Is the Nader flanking? Who is ignoring their defensive position? I’ll just cut to the chase. If you get blown up by Martyrdom, 99% of the time it means you did something stupid. We’ve all done it. I’m not calling you stupid, I am just saying you did something stupid.

The grenade launcher shoots peas. Seriously, it’s an area denial tool. It’s very hard to get consistent kills with it unless you have a team of dumb Proxies and Auras rushing narrow corridors at you (this actually happens more than you would think). If you are consistently getting killed by the grenade launcher, you did something stupid.

Nader, in the hands of a skilled player, can be very good at slowing down choke points, diverting a rush to where you team is set up better to defend, and area denial. When playing against skilled people, she can be useful, but she’s not a very good fragger. She only shines as a fragger against the stupid or inexperienced.

She punishes the stupid and unaware without being OP against skilled people. She’s the perfect fit for a skill based game based on gun play.[/quote]

Im specifically targeting martyrdom as overpowered though. I said in my original post that grenade launcher wasnt a huge deal to me.

You see nothing wrong with a weapon that kills upon death in under 1 second? In a skill based game? Thats in beta…for a character thats already been nerfed before. That really doesnt make sense to you?

(Ghosthree3) #27

If this is your final say in the matter then this just isn’t going to go anywhere. I can’t think of any experienced players who think along the same lines.

I believe it’s actually 1 second exactly.

(KayDubz) #28

I see experienced players killed all the time by martyrdom.

And Its actually .9 seconds according to the update I read (if Im remembering correctly).

(Jojack) #29

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38257”][quote=“Kenzi;38256”]And is that the nader’s fault your teammates are bad?
No.[/quote]
Thats not the point. The point is that Nader is rewarded for poor gun play and death.

I mean, think about it…were people wrong when they complained to devs about her in the past and they ended up nerfing her launcher a bit? Ive seen enough discussion on steam and in-game, where I figure another Nader tweak is needed and likely imminent.

For the life of me I cannot understand why some people on the forum are so resistant any time there’s a discussion of merc balance. It is a game in beta.
[/quote]

The reason people “resist merc balance” is because 90% of the merc balance discussions are about the wrong mercs. Nader, Rhino, Proxy, Aura…these are the mercs most often cried about. They are all pretty bad. These 4 mercs wreck newbs, and that’s all. They are newb wreckers. These 4 mercs are rarely played by higher level players because there are far more powerful mercs at their disposal. Never a whisper about nerfing Sawbonez or Fragger, the two most powerful mercs in the game.

New players complain about those 4 mercs because new players aren’t very good at the game yet. After they have played for a few weeks, and especially after they have played as these “OP” mercs, they realize they were wrong about the balance changes they suggested earlier.

(Ghosthree3) #30

Then this just proves experience doesn’t necessarily lead to better gameplay.

Close enough.

(Jojack) #31

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38260”]

You see nothing wrong with a weapon that kills upon death in under 1 second? In a skill based game? Thats in beta…for a character thats already been nerfed before. That really doesnt make sense to you?[/quote]

No, I don’t. It punishes the stupid. Smart players are not punished by it. Plain and simple.

edit - Let me rephrase that. It punishes the unskilled. Skilled players are not punished by it. That sounds about perfect for a game that rewards skillful play.

(newfangledKeeper) #32

Its free week Nader. You’re going to see a few extra every game (4 on one team once, ugh) but that does not necessarily mean the class is OP. She does one thing really well, and if you play smart you will avoid most of the damage she can put out.

I would also like to point out that if a Nader is running into range just to die and kill you with Martyr, they are not contributing to the team in the slightest. If a Nader is successfully doing that against more than one person on your team, well, your team is the issue, not Nader.

(Ghosthree3) #33

There is no place anywhere in a map in the game that I can think of that would prevent you escaping martyrdom even if you were right on top of her as she died. A long jump solves all your problems.

(Jojack) #34

No, you don’t.

(KayDubz) #35

[quote=“Jojack;38265”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38257”][quote=“Kenzi;38256”]And is that the nader’s fault your teammates are bad?
No.[/quote]
Thats not the point. The point is that Nader is rewarded for poor gun play and death.

I mean, think about it…were people wrong when they complained to devs about her in the past and they ended up nerfing her launcher a bit? Ive seen enough discussion on steam and in-game, where I figure another Nader tweak is needed and likely imminent.

For the life of me I cannot understand why some people on the forum are so resistant any time there’s a discussion of merc balance. It is a game in beta.
[/quote]

The reason people “resist merc balance” is because 90% of the merc balance discussions are about the wrong mercs. Nader, Rhino, Proxy, Aura…these are the mercs most often cried about. They are all pretty bad. These 4 mercs wreck newbs, and that’s all. They are newb wreckers. These 4 mercs are rarely played by higher level players because there are far more powerful mercs at their disposal. Never a whisper about nerfing Sawbonez or Fragger, the two most powerful mercs in the game.

New players complain about those 4 mercs because new players aren’t very good at the game yet. After they have played for a few weeks, and especially after they have played as these “OP” mercs, they realize they were wrong about the balance changes they suggested earlier.
[/quote]
And yet the devs have tweaked each of those characters, save for Rhino.

Says something doesnt it? They hear the people, and they agreed more balance was needed. So the outcry was not unfounded.

(KayDubz) #36

No, you don’t.

[/quote]
Yes I do. Dont tell me what I do and do not see just because you disagree with the possible tweaking of a merc. You lot were behaving this way before her launcher was nerfed, and before revives were tweaked.

Why so dismissive of balance tweaks to a beta game? It happens.[quote=“newfangledKeeper;38269”]Its free week Nader. You’re going to see a few extra every game (4 on one team once, ugh) but that does not necessarily mean the class is OP. She does one thing really well, and if you play smart you will avoid most of the damage she can put out.

I would also like to point out that if a Nader is running into range just to die and kill you with Martyr, they are not contributing to the team in the slightest. If a Nader is successfully doing that against more than one person on your team, well, your team is the issue, not Nader.[/quote]
Depends.

Sometimes you need an area cleared out and cannot rely on her launcher to do it (after you already see the team couldnt push through). In which case kamikaze-ing two enemy medics in that manner may work. And I have seen it work.

(Jojack) #37

The reason people “resist merc balance” is because 90% of the merc balance discussions are about the wrong mercs. Nader, Rhino, Proxy, Aura…these are the mercs most often cried about. They are all pretty bad. These 4 mercs wreck newbs, and that’s all. They are newb wreckers. These 4 mercs are rarely played by higher level players because there are far more powerful mercs at their disposal. Never a whisper about nerfing Sawbonez or Fragger, the two most powerful mercs in the game.

New players complain about those 4 mercs because new players aren’t very good at the game yet. After they have played for a few weeks, and especially after they have played as these “OP” mercs, they realize they were wrong about the balance changes they suggested earlier.
[/quote]
And yet the devs have tweaked each of those characters, save for Rhino.

Says something doesnt it? They hear the people, and they agreed more balance was needed. So the outcry was not unfounded.
[/quote]

They tweaked those characters in certain aspects. Not in the aspects the community was crying about. The last tweak to Nader was a buff. Faster nades and marty was no longer able to be cancelled after activation by gibbing. If they listened to the outcry of the people, like you say, Nader would have gotten a nerf instead of a buff. They will continue to carefully tweak all mercs. They shouldn’t, and don’t, listen to new player whining when considering these tweaks.

(Ghosthree3) #38

Maybe, and this might be a stretch, but maybe they disagree with your observation.

(Runeforce) #39

We are resistant because some of us has been playtesting the mercs for almost three years, and we don’t want some scrub that just came in from the streets, to take us back to the start.

(KayDubz) #40

Jojack,

Naders launcher used to be a bit more deadly than it is now imo.

The martydom of course was given more convenience though like you said.

All this said, theres a reason other FPS game comps and tournaments like ESL ban martyrdom and frown upon the game mechanic. It says a lot when many legitimate competitions dont allow use the reward-for-death mechanics.