Does Nader feel like the most unskillful elements of FPS rolled into one?

(KayDubz) #1

Im sure this has been discussed before, but I thought Id start my own thread.

I cannot be the only one who thinks Nader needs to be revised at all, am I? I am a FPS guy whos play the likes of Call of Duty and Battlefield for years. One of the things that annoyed me the most about Call of Duty was martyrdom.

It basically rewards players for poor play. You can get into unwinnable fire fights simply hoping your opponent doesnt realize they are facing a Nader. Or even if they do realize it, if you are in close quarters there’s a slim chance they can get away from the grenade in time.

On top of this, she’s also the grenade launcher character of the game. So essentially the developers have taken two of the most despised weapons people use in FPS games, and combined them into one character.

For a game that touts itself as being about skill, gunplay, and aiming… a character like Nader sure does reward a lack of all three.

Now I do feel the grenade launcher isnt too terrible as in other games…seeing as there’s a decent delay on their explosion if you miss your target. Hence gun vs grenade launcher isnt a good matchup against someone with decent aim. Plus the blast radius seems fair enough. But I definitely feel martyrdom requires some amount of tweaking.

This all said, the reason I took notice of it was because of the new merc rotation. I saved up to by my Nader…but I dont use her all the time. But I definitely took notice to her “cheapness” after seeing teams filled with Naders blasting “noob tubes” everywhere and getting a lot of marty kills.

I just feel that a game that touts itself as being about skill should not reward a lack thereof. The only skillful thing I can think about Nader is sacrificing herself on a kamikaze mission to clear an area, knowing her goal is to use martyrdom.

I used to do this with Proxy…and tbh, praised the fact that her mines take a few seconds to arm (which adds balance). I just feel Nader’s explosion is very quick once the grenade drops…especially considering how long the cook times can be for Fragger when he throws a nade.

(KayDubz) #2

Also, I think there needs to be a detonation time on her marty of at least 1.5 seconds. Any other game with martyrdom is at least 2 seconds. Her’s feels much less than that. Doesnt even feel like a full second.

What do you guys think?

(god1) #3

SD have said that some of the mercs are more designed for the less talented population, Nader was used as an example here. She’s designed to be easy to use but there is still a huge difference between a good and bad Nader.
Martyrdom is completely fine in its current state, you’re an idiot if you’re getting killed by it.

(Ghosthree3) #4

Grenades are really good at clearing tight areas but that’s all she has over anyone else. Granted she does this extremely well, think the hallway entry for the first objective on Bridge. But really, Fragger is just better.

(KayDubz) #5

God1,

How is someone an idiot for getting killed by martydom in a close quarters battle with a nade that blows up in less than a second?

Take the trolling elsewhere.

(stealthyBass) #6

[quote=“god1;38228”]
Martyrdom is completely fine in its current state, you’re an idiot if you’re getting killed by it.[/quote]

Came here to pretty much say this.

(KayDubz) #7

I agree shes good for clearing an area…but like I said, my main issue is the cheap martyrdom that blows up in less than a second and rewards poor play.

(KayDubz) #8

[quote=“stealthyBass;38233”][quote=“god1;38228”]
Martyrdom is completely fine in its current state, you’re an idiot if you’re getting killed by it.[/quote]

Came here to pretty much say this. [/quote]
Yeah, and Ive read things on steam saying the same thing about Nader and her launcher in the past…and then the developers nerfed her anyway. Seriously though think critically about my earlier question.

For a game that touts gunplay and skill, isnt it a contradiction when people get kills from nades that blow up in under 1 second after dying? Especially in a close quarters battle where you have a slim to nil chance of avoiding it, I find it very noob rewarding.

(god1) #9

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38232”]God1,

How is someone an idiot for getting killed by martydom in a close quarters battle with a nade that blows up in less than a second?

Take the trolling elsewhere.[/quote]
You don’t get into those situations if you know how to position yourself.

(Rjsto) #10

The salt is real. There there, let it all out, two weeks will be over soon

(KayDubz) #11

[quote=“god1;38236”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38232”]God1,

How is someone an idiot for getting killed by martydom in a close quarters battle with a nade that blows up in less than a second?

Take the trolling elsewhere.[/quote]
You don’t get into those situations if you know how to position yourself.
[/quote]Again, not much you can do in a close quarters map or defensive area if someone blasts through knowing they have the crutch of martyrdom.

Its a beta game, but one thing Ive noticed from forum lurking is that there are tons of naysayers anything people discuss tweaking mercs. And this is something the developers have constantly done.

(Ghosthree3) #12

If that is your issue then you simply need more experience. I used to be like you, she was my first purchase because I thought martyrdom was so OP. After many hours I’ve learned that it’s really not and with good general play it is ALWAYS avoidable, however you may die to another player, which is not a problem with martyrdom.

(Jojack) #13

No it’s not a contradiction. Now, let me ask you. For someone that comes across as if gun play and skill are what they are good at, isn’t it a contradiction to get killed by the easiest skill in the game to avoid? There is literally no way to die to Martyrdom unless you do something stupid.

(KayDubz) #14

If that is your issue then you simply need more experience. I used to be like you, she was my first purchase because I thought martyrdom was so OP. After many hours I’ve learned that it’s really not and with good general play it is ALWAYS avoidable, however you may die to another player, which is not a problem with martyrdom.[/quote]
Id actually like people to discuss the points I made and address them directly instead of just saying “its fine the way it is”. No one is gonna touch on the point I made regarding the timer of the nades or the game’s goal of skillful gunplay?

I play just fine and typical get 1st to 3rd place on my team…so experience isnt the issue here. Im strictly talking about legit balance and touching on what is or isnt a skillful aspect of a competitive FPS game. (which is what DB is trying to be)

(Mr-Penguin) #15

I dunno, I honestly think that Nader is too easy to use. She’s basically the perfect merc for new players due to her abilities, but mercs like Fragger and even Skyhammer are much more effective in skilled hands.

(Eox) #16

Grenades are not hitscan, and have a rather small radius. They have a set up time before detonation, and due to their projectile nature they can be easly dodged, especially since you move pretty fast in DB. Even if you a blocked in a corner : just wall jump. I did this a lot of time to avoid some small explosions. They only inflict full damage on a direct hit, and those are pretty difficult to achieve regularly.

Martyrdom is countered by awareness. Nader is a merc pretty easly recognizable, so you know that if you pass too near of her she’ll blow at your face. If you see a downed Nader, finish her with your guns. Because it’s an action triggered by the user, you can also try fool the nader and make her activate her Martyrdom for nothing. I also managed to dodge martyrdoms pretty easly when I fought a Nader at very close range : just long jump in the opposite way.

I’m perfectly fine with Nader as it is. Of course too much Nader may ruin your day, but so does too much anything.

(KayDubz) #17

[quote=“Jojack;38240”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;38235”]

For a game that touts gunplay and skill, isnt it a contradiction when people get kills from nades that blow up in under 1 second after dying? Especially in a close quarters battle where you have a slim to nil chance of avoiding it, I find it very noob rewarding.
[/quote]

No it’s not a contradiction. Now, let me ask you. For someone that comes across as if gun play and skill are what they are good at, isn’t it a contradiction to get killed by the easiest skill in the game to avoid? There is literally no way to die to Martyrdom unless you do something stupid.
[/quote]
So if someone flanks my team, ignores their defensive position, and gets us blown up by martydom, how is that the fault of the rest of the players who played smart?

Especially with an unavoidable grenade drop that explodes in under 1 second. So no, its not the easiest thing to avoid. We are talking about a team based game, where everyones skill matters. If someone on the team drops the ball, people die, especially when easy kills can be made with a death reward like martyrdom.

I mean, its a beta game, and something Ive noticed on the forums is that many people really dislike discussing any tweaks to characters even though it happens all the time. I even saw people complaining on steam about the Aura and revive nerfs…even though that delay in movement after revives means you have to be more careful about when to do them.

(god1) #18

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;38238”]Again, not much you can do in a close quarters map or defensive area if someone blasts through knowing they have the crutch of martyrdom.
[/quote]
Well personally I can’t think of a single case during my 400 hours of playtime where I’ve been killed by marty because the Nader made a play, it’s always been my own mistake.

(Ghosthree3) #19

If someone flanks my team, and bats someone to death as they stand there drooling, how is that the fault of the rest of my players?

#20

If you get killed by martydom, you can only blame yourself for your lack of situational awareness. Do not allow naders come near you. Keep your distance. Make sure you always have a corner you can jump behind to take cover. Hell, a simple longjump is usually enough to avoid it.

“rewards players for poor play” - allowing a nader come near you is poor play, you want to be rewarded for that?