Does Fletcher Really Need to be Changed?

(Eox) #141

[quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.

(Ohsnapkline) #142

[quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? maybe @N8o can verify can you ask him?
that’s it I knew that Flecher avatar pic was Too good I’m calling personal bias/favoritism!!!
:wink:

(N8o) #143

[quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? maybe @N8o can verify can you ask him?
that’s it I knew that Flecher avatar pic was Too good I’m calling personal bias/favoritism!!!
;)[/quote]

What’s going on? What’s the question?

(Eox) #144

[quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

(N8o) #145

[quote=“Eox;159911”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

[/quote]

Am I needed for something? =\

(Ohsnapkline) #146

[quote=“N8o;159931”][quote=“Eox;159911”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

[/quote]

Am I needed for something? =[/quote]
In my opinion and experience of the game thus far, I find playing against Fletcher to be frustrating as well as there being a lack of mechanics to deal with Fletcher and his sticky bombs. that his stickies require very little skill to execute versus how effective they can be. is there a strategy to deal with him?

I wish for you to share your knowledge about Fletcher, objectively explain where he stands in the competitive and casual scene, how he stacks up comparatively to other mercs and how you would change or tweak him without overtuning him.

(neverplayseriou) #147

Funnily enough both in competitive and in pubs there are Fletchers top scoring without doing the objectives and having the aim of a lvl 5 just because they can spam stickies.

All these people talking about the high skill cap Fletcher has should really get their head out of their @ss and realise he’s an engineer not an assault.

Not to mention that the excuse of Fletcher having terrible guns is just pure bs, the blishlok and empire 9 are both great weapons, sadly most of the Fletcher players focus more on sticky spamming than on learning how to aim with their guns.

I’m predicting about 6/7 disagrees.

(N8o) #148

[quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159984”][quote=“N8o;159931”][quote=“Eox;159911”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

[/quote]

Am I needed for something? =[/quote]
In my opinion and experience of the game thus far, I find playing against Fletcher to be frustrating as well as there being a lack of mechanics to deal with Fletcher and his sticky bombs. that his stickies require very little skill to execute versus how effective they can be. is there a strategy to deal with him?

I wish for you to share your knowledge about Fletcher, objectively explain where he stands in the competitive and casual scene, how he stacks up comparatively to other mercs and how you would change or tweak him without overturning him.[/quote]

In my opinion, in higher level play, he is not as useful as others. People in the top tier will always outgun you before you can throw your explosives or hit shots with the Blishlok (If you are trying to use shotguns on Fletcher in competitive, you’re doing it wrong!)

The best way to counter a Fletcher is with:
A) Another Fletcher
B) Changing your playstyle as to not let him get near you. Remember, his arsenal is limited to stickies and the Blish/close-range shotguns. Deal with him similar to how you deal with shotgun Proxys.

He is meant to be an annoyance, that’s the entire point of his character. Area of denial and a giant pain in the a*s.

As far as casual goes, since people aren’t usually self aware or coordinating with their team, a loose Fletcher will cause chaos and mass hysteria if not dealt with.

I can still do well with him in matchmaking if I go up against cobalts, but anyone that is Elite is going to beat me down until I switch to Kira or Skyhammer.

I would change his sticky damage so that it’s not as large as an area, but have the stick damage be the same or increased to 110-120. Reward accuracy and punish spam. They have been buffing the Blishlok little by little over the past few patches, so it still packs a punch with headshots, but is easily outgunned by people like Fragger and Stoker.

I will say that he is in a good place in the competitive scene, but a monster that people can’t handle in casual.

(Eox) #149

[quote=“N8o;159992”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159984”][quote=“N8o;159931”][quote=“Eox;159911”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

[/quote]

Am I needed for something? =[/quote]
In my opinion and experience of the game thus far, I find playing against Fletcher to be frustrating as well as there being a lack of mechanics to deal with Fletcher and his sticky bombs. that his stickies require very little skill to execute versus how effective they can be. is there a strategy to deal with him?

I wish for you to share your knowledge about Fletcher, objectively explain where he stands in the competitive and casual scene, how he stacks up comparatively to other mercs and how you would change or tweak him without overturning him.[/quote]

In my opinion, in higher level play, he is not as useful as others. People in the top tier will always outgun you before you can throw your explosives or hit shots with the Blishlok (If you are trying to use shotguns on Fletcher in competitive, you’re doing it wrong!)

The best way to counter a Fletcher is with:
A) Another Fletcher
B) Changing your playstyle as to not let him get near you. Remember, his arsenal is limited to stickies and the Blish/close-range shotguns. Deal with him similar to how you deal with shotgun Proxys.

He is meant to be an annoyance, that’s the entire point of his character. Area of denial and a giant pain in the a*s.

As far as casual goes, since people aren’t usually self aware or coordinating with their team, a loose Fletcher will cause chaos and mass hysteria if not dealt with.

I can still do well with him in matchmaking if I go up against cobalts, but anyone that is Elite is going to beat me down until I switch to Kira or Skyhammer.

I would change his sticky damage so that it’s not as large as an area, but have the stick damage be the same or increased to 110-120. Reward accuracy and punish spam. They have been buffing the Blishlok little by little over the past few patches, so it still packs a punch with headshots, but is easily outgunned by people like Fragger and Stoker.

I will say that he is in a good place in the competitive scene, but a monster that people can’t handle in casual.[/quote]

Such a change feels dangerous. Okay, you make the stickies requiring more accuracy coming from the Fletcher user, but on the other hand a 110-120 damage stuck sticky feels absurdly powerful. 110 basically allow you to one shot Sawbonez, Bushwhacker and other Fletchers : more or less half the mercs in the roaster. Bump that to 120 and you’ll be able to one shot everyone but Fragger, Thunder and Rhino. It feels insane in the hands of a potent player. I seriously doubt that it’ll solve anything in pubs : if anything I am sure if we apply those changes, we will see even more whine around Fletcher than usual.

Really, Fletcher is fine as he is IMO. At least when it comes about splash radius and damage. If spamming is such a huge issue, reduce the stickybomb RPM from 60 to 45-50. But increase the projectile speed as well : it encourages direct hits.

PS : I called you so you can tell to straightforwardOdyssey your vision of Fletcher as you play in competition. Sorry if I confused you. :confused:

(Szakalot) #150

also think boosting sticky damage is dangerous stuff. Fletcher is fine as is - a bit spammy, but hey, plenty of mercs are spammy!

And he is hardly OP in high level play.

I guess I would be ok with nerfing splash damage - to promote direct hits- but fletcha would require some other buff to compensate, as any flat nerf will likely make everyone go back to bushwhacker, like they did for almost a year way back when

(Ohsnapkline) #151

[quote=“N8o;159992”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159984”][quote=“N8o;159931”][quote=“Eox;159911”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159871”][quote=“Eox;159852”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159681”][quote=“Eox;159537”][quote=“straightforwardOdyssey;159326”]
Ok allow me to correct something because I’ve been labeling it wrong (what happens from lack of sleep) skill floor is how easy something is to play or initially play, skill ceiling is the full potential at which someone or something can be played at.

I don’t hate or favor any Merc just simply trying to look at there ability’s from an non-biased/objective standpoint. what I meant to say is Nader and Fletcher have a low skill floor not ceiling. I actually think these Mercs have a moderate skill ceiling in that Nader can skillfully ricochet grenades into kills and Fletcher can tactically set his sticky’s but with the current effectiveness of both these skills your not forced as much to do so. sorry for the confusion.

Yes proxy and bush W. have use and forget tools at there disposal but I find neither to be over-tuned or problematic (unless your stacking proxies but Merc stacking/limits is another thread), simply due to there being a system (both interesting and engaging) that allows players to overcome/counter these obstacles.

A good pair of headphones will allow you to hear the mechanical sounds both mines and sentry’s produce as well as a perk that lets you detect them better. Thus giving an opportunity for players to engage proxy and bush W. in interesting ways. also when playing these characters I find my self using my fire-arms and not just my Q or E ability.

  • I also think the same of Rhino, his mini-gun is all give and not enough take, and Impossible to overheat with half a brain so why is overheating even there? using Rhino I feel like I have no reason to use anything else but the mini-gun I’m even considering getting Stoker so I don’t have to deal with enemy Rhinos that bunker down with a medic station.[/quote]

The skill ceiling is actually way higher than you might think. Try to land consistent direct hits towards a target located at 25m or more with the GL that is also strafing and shooting at you. Worse now : try with the stickies, which are lower projectiles. Aiming a projectile based weapon that does not explode on contact with the environment is harder than aiming a hitscan weapon.

Any guy can spam mindlessly, but if you play in a competitive environment you’ll never earn anything with mindless spamming : you’ll need to be accurate. Very accurate. Spam only works in those 8v8 servers full of players with a level below 15. Try to do it against decent players and you’ll earn much less frags than usual.

[/quote]
I counter argue with “not everything can be about the competitive scene”, I’m sure SD doesn’t just balance for the top 10% they have to make QoL changes for other players too. I understand you make your case about Fletcher being competitive I’m simply basing my argument off of weather it’s fun or just frustrating to play against.

But I’m not above looking at another persons point of view.

I think everyone would probably have a better understanding if we could watch Fletcher play in a competitive/ranked game, maybe you could post a video of you playing Fletcher in a competitive match.[/quote]

Sadly I don’t play in competition. I don’t have the time, and I don’t stand a chance against the most skilled players around. However, there are players like @N8o who are extremely good and very likely to play in team competition.

I don’t play Matchmaking too : it’s just 5v5 pubs.[/quote]

then… what are you basing your argument off of, personal experience or statistics, maybe feedback from competitive players?? [/quote]

Everything.

[/quote]

Am I needed for something? =[/quote]
In my opinion and experience of the game thus far, I find playing against Fletcher to be frustrating as well as there being a lack of mechanics to deal with Fletcher and his sticky bombs. that his stickies require very little skill to execute versus how effective they can be. is there a strategy to deal with him?

I wish for you to share your knowledge about Fletcher, objectively explain where he stands in the competitive and casual scene, how he stacks up comparatively to other mercs and how you would change or tweak him without overturning him.[/quote]

In my opinion, in higher level play, he is not as useful as others. People in the top tier will always outgun you before you can throw your explosives or hit shots with the Blishlok (If you are trying to use shotguns on Fletcher in competitive, you’re doing it wrong!)

The best way to counter a Fletcher is with:
A) Another Fletcher
B) Changing your playstyle as to not let him get near you. Remember, his arsenal is limited to stickies and the Blish/close-range shotguns. Deal with him similar to how you deal with shotgun Proxys.

He is meant to be an annoyance, that’s the entire point of his character. Area of denial and a giant pain in the a*s.

As far as casual goes, since people aren’t usually self aware or coordinating with their team, a loose Fletcher will cause chaos and mass hysteria if not dealt with.

I can still do well with him in matchmaking if I go up against cobalts, but anyone that is Elite is going to beat me down until I switch to Kira or Skyhammer.

I would change his sticky damage so that it’s not as large as an area, but have the stick damage be the same or increased to 110-120. Reward accuracy and punish spam. They have been buffing the Blishlok little by little over the past few patches, so it still packs a punch with headshots, but is easily outgunned by people like Fragger and Stoker.

I will say that he is in a good place in the competitive scene, but a monster that people can’t handle in casual.[/quote]

Thanks N8o that was insightful

(TheHel1x) #152

So you are saying that all mercs should have the same mechanics and to have an advantage over another merc is bad? This is how Fletcher is played. I don’t like it when I get spawn fragged, does that mean that Fragger should not be able to airburst either? I don’t like it when a Sparks kills me with the REVIVOR does that mean she should not be able to kill with it? No, this is just part of how the mercs work. You don’t like it?, shoot them in the face a few times and don’t worry about it.

[quote=“Ritobasu;149779”]- Stickies must be attached to a surface for an extremely brief period before being allowed to detonate; no more airburst stickies, that’s Frogger’s job

  • Increase Sticky resupply time from 8 to 11 seconds. Fletcher players are actually forced to use… their guns!
  • Decrease maximum damage splash radius of Stickies by 50%, just like every other class who’s explosives has been nerfed (Fragger, Proxy, Nader)
  • Decrease maximum damage of Stickies to 75 (it currently does 100 damage, literally more than a Nader nade), and attach a 25 dmg bonus to a successfully stuck enemy (just like Nader)

Can’t wait for the Fletcher players to join everyone else in complaining about their class nerfs. You guys had it coming a long time ago since the CW patch, not once has he been touched while the majority of other classes were adjusted in some way.[/quote]

That’s a pretty toxic attitude to have buddy. Sounds like somebody got their panties twisted in a big knot when their favorite merc got nerfed. This would be a MASSIVE Nerf to Fletcher and render him useless on a scale of using a shoelace to fly your kite… If you want a Fletcher Nerf then add a resupply timer Nerf of +1 seconds. That would be fair and not destroy his usefulness. Coming from a Fletcher player.

(TheHel1x) #153

[quote=“Xavien;152262”]
For all you people saying, “Fletcher is too powerful, he kills me within 1 or 2 sticky bombs and they are too easy to be stuck on with no skill.”
Here’s some simple advice:

  1. Don’t follow a damn Fletcher.
  2. Run away while you can to get outta his damn reach.
  3. If you have no where to run, run close to him and run in zigzags or circles around him so he doesn’t know where to toss and would most likely not toss at his feet to just kill himself along with you.
  4. You can counter Fletcher now.[/quote]

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner!!! I kill SOOOOO many Fletchers in CQC just by wall jumping over them, 180 and LMB… works every time because they 1- Don’t know were to throw so as they notice you are going over their head if they do through they hit the wall next to them and damage themselves or 2- they don’t throw at all and they take them out easy because you have the element of surprise with your over-head-wall-jump-180-headshot-Fletcher-Reker-3000… trickshot… Yah.

(kopyright) #154

It always depends on the circumstances. We were playing Underground against a team with 4 (!) Fletchers yesterday, and despite the never ending waves of stickies we managed to hold the last objective. On the other hand I still wake up in cold sweat screaming Faraleth’s name every other night since I crossed his paths a few weeks ago.

(Solid Stache ~NaC) #155

The problem I have with Fletcher is that he is played like an Assault, rather than an Engineer. The engineer archetype should be a character that leans more towards defensive set up, rather than offensive. Hence the reason why on offense, they need to be covered and protected to successfully complete the objective in a timely manner.

Now, all of the engineers can be successfully played on offense, but they all have their own distinct disadvantages. Fletcher’s disadvantage may be long to mid range, but he can equip the Blishlok (better for long/mid, has the least penalty for damage fall off on SMGs) or Ahnuld (best midrange shotty) to alleviate that weakness. On top of that, he has the Empire 9 which is the easiest and best MP to use. Now sugar coat that with good speed and health, and you have one annoying character to face.

Fletcher is a character that suffers from the same design decisions as the Demo Man in TF2. He’s supposed to be a defensive character that sets up traps, but instead he just spams his stickies in choke points without any repercussions when he is on offense. There are two different ideas that I suggest.

Idea 1

Reduce the number of stickies he has by 1, and reduce the AOE damage they have. Having an arsenal of bombs that can total to 300 damage is a bit insane. Reducing it by one makes him rely on his weaponry more often.

Idea 2

Keep the number of stickies he has, but make his sticky bombs deal more damage the longer they stay stuck to the environment (not players). (80 initial damage, scales to 120 damage; something like that) This would force him to be more defensive, and they still have the ability to stick on to mercs. It requires the player to decide to reinforce the defense, or supplement the offense at a cost.

(PleasantWheat) #156

As someone who thinks fletcher needs a tiny nerf to bring him back in line with the rest of the engineer mercs (as you said he shouldn’t be as good as he is at attacking), I reckon your proposed fixes are a bit overkill.

idea 1

Proxy’s and bush’s abilities can easily net kills by themselves, he should have enough stickies to kill someone with a trap. I see his stickies as more of an improv trap as opposed to the set and forget nature of proxy and bush. Maybe reducing it to two would be less of a slap in the face.

idea 2

This idea would force him to babysit his stickies which is kinda dumb. Even bush doesnt have to babysit the turret if its in a decent spot. Maybe if the stickies were exploded in mid air they recieve a damage nerf where as if they are stuck to something they get full damage capabilities.

(Szakalot) #157

@“Solid Stache ~NaC” Fletcher is actually quite poor on offense. If people know where fletcher is coming from they gain distance and deal large amounts of damage while fletcher tries to setup some tricky throws. Throwing a sticky is really slow, it may not feel that one when you get one-shot, but if fletcher is caught out in the open he will only get to throw one before getting destroyed

(Solid Stache ~NaC) #158

That’s when a fletcher would alternate routes or play passively until an opportune moment arrives. He still has a decent repertoire of mid range weapons between the ahnuld and the blishlok to hit and run a bit. The latter is the more jack of all trades weapon to accentuate his close range stickies.

[quote=“PleasantWheat;161133”]

This idea would force him to babysit his stickies which is kinda dumb. Even bush doesnt have to babysit the turret if its in a decent spot. Maybe if the stickies were exploded in mid air they recieve a damage nerf where as if they are stuck to something they get full damage capabilities.[/quote]

To use bushwhacker to his fullest capabilities on defense, you would essentially baby sit the turret to create a cross fire with it. This creates a strong lock down with just one merc and can hold a line for an extended period of time to rally allies.

If you’d have the ability to detonate one bomb at a time by looking at it, similar to demo man’s alternate sticky, this proposed idea would work much better. It’d be clunkier to use on the other hand…

The proposition you made would keep the character’s identity and i’d be happy with that; I just stand by the design philosophy that sticky bombs should be more of a defensive tool rather than a make shift grenade.

(Tanker_Ray) #159

One of the most flexible merc unlike very situational Rhino, but very hard to use as he needs lots of swaps.

Fletcher is fine with his own limit - Can’t engage far distances, lots of penalty when you fail to stick someone or late to detonate it.(In that short time you can kill him very easily, if DPS is concentrated correctly.)

But his only problem was he act like Assault many times, since sticky bomb is the only skill that can be used as defense line breaking - offensive explosives. Proxy’s mine is also available, but not as flexible as his.

I mean, like the mine hell has arrived after Proxy’s mine was buffed to 20 sec, if fletcher really deserves the nerf, I would say cooldown nerf can be the answer.

If he didn’t have the choice of Blishlok, I admit there were no one complaining about fletcher.

He is indeed OP at maps like Underground, but not really THAT strong at open field based maps.

I guess modifying its damage to 99 might be good too, like Fel-IX can’t one shot Aura and Sparks.

100HP merc gets less chance to get butt kicked by fletcha, and fletcha himslef still got some chance to kill 1hP merc, aye?

(l2c) #160

Longer cooldown on the stickies might be good. Too much spam. And they’re kinda powerful, way more so then ie Nader’s grenades. Shouldn’t be able to oneshot atleast, not with the range you can toss them atleast.