Does Fletcher Really Need to be Changed?

(I-Fell-Tower) #61

IMO they should increase the time it takes to use the Detonator.
Well, this isn’t, in a sense, a direct downgrade to the Stickies but it would be helpful if Fletcher players could be vulnerable longer than nowadays. Yeah, you could take some explosive damage from his Stickies but maybe, just maybe, you could also finish him off with that extra time the detonating takes.

(Szakalot) #62

removing airburst would kill the merc, airburst is 90%< of all trick-throws

(Ritobasu) #63

Airbursting Fletcher is fucking cancer, and it should only be exclusively be something only Fragger can do

People seriously defending airbursting as “skill” and comparing it to Vassili jump sniping, lol

(neverplayseriou) #64

@Jesus how is making someone actually use his gun dumbing down the game? There’s nothing casual about having to use an actual gun.

(Ballto) #65

ill quote an older comment i made. keep in mind only one, if any, should be implemented IMO

[quote=“Ballto;146273”]Fletcher is overpowered but not for any one reason.

BlackBombs are annoying but balanced, Anhuld is a great shotgun but balanced, emp 9 is a great gun but balanced, and if objective specialist is op nerf bushwhaker.

Its when you put all of these on one class it becomes an issue.

The emp 9 is just as good as the hochfir at mid-long range, save hipfire bloom and 15 less ammo capacity. (SIDE NOTE, I WROTE THIS PRE EMP9 NERF)

The anhuld is honestly the second best shotgun in my opinion, right behind the hollunds. Faster rechamber time and tighter spread makes it possible to push its effective range to almost 15-18 meters (yes, 15+ meters.) This is because of the way shotguns work in dirty bomb. Each one will always shoot in a perfect star pattern, and bloom out as it travels, with some small amounts of randomness if youre jumping. In most games, the shotguns are 100% RNG, which makes them bad at range because they spread fast and RNG cant be worked around well. However here, when you get used to the pattern and how it will bloom out, shotguns can be very effective at ranges they usually wouldnt be. Of course, you wont out DPS a good aiming player with an automatic weapon, but you can finish him off after blackbombing or soften him up a bit for EMPing.

The emp 9 is just the absolute best secondary in the game. I doubt anyone would contest this. Youre basically carrying around a hochfir SMG in your pocket, which is one of the better SMGs even according to the community. Again, very good in both close and medium range.

BlackBombs are stupidly effective at clearing points and on offence. Not overpowered, just stupidly effective. Ill use terminal as an example. Throw two BlackBombs on the C4 in the shipping containers, and wait for someone to defuse. Those two bombs will kill any merc (except a rhino with tryhard i suppose) from full HP and they are significantly smaller than mines, so most people wont see them, at least as easily as a mine or turret. Or if you dont already have the bombs in there, throw them in. two kills all mercs. They are also the ONLY weapon in the game now where bunny hopping is an unhindered strategy. Jump like, i probably cant say this on the forums with out getting modded a bit. Its not harder to effectively dodge your bombs as youre spamming them and you can effectively dodge while spamming them. Most fletchers rarely even need to use their gun.

Bishlok. Simply best smg in the game in my opinion. If you have good accuracy, its DPS is very similar to most other guns, albeit punishing if you miss. The KeK10 only has 8 more DPS for example
Bishlok DPS: 120

KeK10 DPS:128

36 damage headshots are brutal against every class. Especially low HP classes. 18 damage bodyshots are also brutal. Yes, youre at a disadvanatge in head to head combat or close range, but if you get an ambush or are at longer ranges (as you often are on chapel, dome, trainyard, the new maps, and to an extent underground) you have massive advantage over many automatic wepons if you have good aim.

Engineers are just engineers. Nothing silly op or up about them.

So how does this make fletcher overpowered?

You give him a frag grenade that does 50 less damage (THREE OF THEM) at half the cooldown each, which can clear points as well as a nader, and then give him the best situational primary weapons in the game while giving him an automatic SMG secondary as good as the hochfir at further and closer ranges, while letting him be an engineer. A decent fletcher can blackbomb two people defending a point by cover peeking blackbombs (which, unlike frags or nader bombs, are unavoidable if they stick) and then come in and normal gun a third, then plant twice as fast as most other mercs, and then his team shows up. Or, he clears a c4 of all defusers with two bombs or of a couple defenders and defuses while his team shoots the last few around him.

This is not just theory crafting. The blackbombs are just better as weapons than nader or fragger (find me a single good nader or fragger that nade primaries.) and he is an engineer with the same explosive spam potential as the other explosive classes.

I didnt mention mines as they function a lot differently to other explosives.

Now how would i fix this? i would do one of these options personally.

-up the cooldown of the bombs to 12 seconds each from 8
-remove objective specialist from him and give him ammo or an HP buff to be an assault, replacing him with a new engineer (TURTLE PLS)
-remove the emp 9 from all loadouts, or at least the ones with lockon, replacewith M9 or selbsdat
-lower his HP to 100 up his speed
-add an arming time to stiky bombs but remove detonation delay, say half that of mines.

[/quote]

(Ballto) #66

Removing jumpshots kills vasili. 90% of all trick shots are jumpshots.

just because something is a trickshot doesnt mean it needs ability or is balanced

(note, even if @Szakalot doesnt care or is opposed to the jump nerf i bring it up as a lot of fletcher players on the forums i know were in favour of the jumpnerfs)

(Szakalot) #67

Removing jumpshots kills vasili. 90% of all trick shots are jumpshots.

just because something is a trickshot doesnt mean it needs ability or is balanced

(note, even if @Szakalot doesnt care or is opposed to the jump nerf i bring it up as a lot of fletcher players on the forums i know were in favour of the jumpnerfs)[/quote]

vassili was already dead; since removal of instagib there was no reason to play him over redeye.

what i was trying to say is that fletcher relies on those trick throws to be able to compete. throwing bombs at people in your line of sight is very ineffective, at least at high skill levels. you need to be able to navigate the map and know how people run/think to consistently bomb them to oblivion.

trickthrows are not a virtue in itself, but they do make fletcher more fun to play; regardless of that, without those trickthrows fletcher is a poor man’s nader with no mid-long range capability

(Verticules) #68

@-BigRed Bushwacker is easier to play. Not everyone who plays in cups is God tier. I have played in a couple cups, if that’s proof enough. I don’t play OBJ often, but when I do I play Bushwacker because his gun play and turret placement is much easier than fletcher play.

(nokiII) #69

@Ballto All very good points you mention there, but did you realize, that fletcher is also faster than any other 110hp merc? Just adds insult to injury really.

(Dawnlazy) #70

As he SHOULD be, since he’s an engie. Right now he’s absolute power creep over Nader after the last patch randomly halved her nades’ inner blast radius.

(sonsofaugust5) #71

[quote=“ForumArms;152267”]IMO they should increase the time it takes to use the Detonator.
Well, this isn’t, in a sense, a direct downgrade to the Stickies but it would be helpful if Fletcher players could be vulnerable longer than nowadays. Yeah, you could take some explosive damage from his Stickies but maybe, just maybe, you could also finish him off with that extra time the detonating takes.[/quote]

They already increased the time. Try using a loadout without lockon. You will always lose

(sonsofaugust5) #72

Fletcher’s denotate time has been increased a lot. Pre and post nerf fletcher was a whole new game. If they do it again he becomes boardline useless. He is already an uncommon competitive engineer pick.

(sonsofaugust5) #73

Whoever said blishlok is the best smg… come on now… Stickes usually don’t work on smart players. If there are stickes on the c4 you shoot one and they all detonate, similar to a proxy mine. One proxy mine can take out almost all mercs, you dont have to to detonate, just place the mine in a tight hallway like office in bridge. Nader and fletcher keep getting compared but they serve two different roles and have different areas that they accel in. I don’t mind if they nerf the inner blast radius or whatever to match nader, thats fine. You make stickes weaker and bushwacker becomes the even more obvious choice of best eng. You can destroy with just about any merc in pubs. For example, phantom when he was first realised. You had noobs complaining about an invisible merc that could 1 click low hp mercs. Phantom in comp has always been pretty useless. The nerfs just made it worse.

(sonsofaugust5) #74

As he SHOULD be, since he’s an engie. Right now he’s absolute power creep over Nader after the last patch randomly halved her nades’ inner blast radius.[/quote]

I don’t get why they halved her blast radius. I think it was because those stats they generated and how Nader was better than fragger on the charts. I think Nader is a lot harder to use than fragger in 5s.

(sonsofaugust5) #75

@hypnotoad Is the dirty bomb wiki correct? It says fletcher has 110 HP and 420 movement and that nader has 120 hp and 420 movement.

(Eox) #76

The speed value for Nader is probably not the right one.

(Ballto) #77

Removing jumpshots kills vasili. 90% of all trick shots are jumpshots.

just because something is a trickshot doesnt mean it needs ability or is balanced

(note, even if @Szakalot doesnt care or is opposed to the jump nerf i bring it up as a lot of fletcher players on the forums i know were in favour of the jumpnerfs)[/quote]

vassili was already dead; since removal of instagib there was no reason to play him over redeye.

what i was trying to say is that fletcher relies on those trick throws to be able to compete. throwing bombs at people in your line of sight is very ineffective, at least at high skill levels. you need to be able to navigate the map and know how people run/think to consistently bomb them to oblivion.

trickthrows are not a virtue in itself, but they do make fletcher more fun to play; regardless of that, without those trickthrows fletcher is a poor man’s nader with no mid-long range capability[/quote]

yes, but jumpshooting did make a good vasili competitive. Now it is not only harder to effectively dodge other players fire at medium ranges (especially if they have semi autos) while shooting with a bolt action, and jumpshotting wasnt a virtue in itself but they were really fun to do and very entertaining to watch.

Without being able to trickjump a vasili main can argue that hes now just a poor mans redeye

Also

HE

IS

A

DAMN

ENGINEER

If he were an ASSAULT he would be complete shit without airbursts compared to fragger or nader, maybe even thunder, but he is an ENGINEER, an engineer mind you that has a class ability with a kill potential equal to or greater than assault mercs. A passable fletcher will never have to rely on his gun as much as a nader/fragger. I have never once in over 500 hours seen a non complete shit nader or fragger using their ability as a primary weapon.

You can corner peek with stickies as well as you can with a nader, clear points as well as you can with a nader, have the uncontested best situational weapons in the game. Shotguns are the best weapon in the game at cqc (duh) and the bish is tied with fraggers MG for the best mid range automatic weapon in the game while you also have a pretty good automatic sidearm on both loadouts with lockon.

An engineer should never have as much assault potential (or close to as much assault potential) as actual assault classes, anymore than Sparks should have as much sniper potential as actual sniper classes as a medic.

Honestly, anyone who supported a sparks nerf and not a fletcher nerf is either oblivious or a hypocrite

(sonsofaugust5) #78

If fletcher’s speed movement isnt the same as bushwackers that should probably change. Shotguns are very limited in their use with fletcher. If you let a fletcher get close enough to be effective with a shotgun you are doing something wrong or are getting rushed around a corner. Faster mercs are able to utlize shotguns a lot more than fletcher is. Nader has 5 nades, her nades refresh faster, and has marytrdom, so how is there potential the same. Naders nades can be effective close range and far. Stickies lose effectiveness if someone is too close or medium-far range as they are easy to dodge. You also have to detonate stickies, something they already nerfed. They shouldnt have changed the blast raidus on nader though.

@Ballto Sparks had more potential than any sniper class pre-nerf. Your comparison isnt valid. Hip fire 120 hp, no reload, the quick charge was fast, med packs, and full health revives from anywhere vs Vassili who can I shot from range but has to scope in, and cant heal at all? He can detect enemies. Its so easy to find and destroy the sensor. Sparks is still an amazing medic and I still use her a lot. No other medic can 1 shot kill like she can if you can aim. Distance revives mean you can stay alive for along time.

(Ballto) #79

The bishlok is the best medium to long range weapon and pretty bad at CQC, which i will never deny, but he also has the empire 9 which is a really good close quarters weapon even now, but more situational to closer ranges. He has two of the ebst situational weapons in the game for all ranges on the same loadout, and lockon.

You probably wont kill a full HP merc with more than 100 hp with stickies, but youll sure as hell soften them up a lot and since you can still bunny hop with pinpoint accuracy you can dodge their shots easily but they cannot as easily dodge your bombs. Their hitboxes are really small and can often clip inside the C4 also.

Proximity mines have an audio signature, significantly larger hitbox, much easier to see, and cant stick to ceilings/ behind ledges to hide them, cant be lobbed super far, and and be thrown/shot as quickly as a sticky with lockon can detonate, need to be set up prior on defence, have a long arm delay, 20 second CD each, and cant stick to players. Mines work on smart capable players less than stickies, especially mercs with splash damage. Comparing the two is not a good idea as they are completely different in how they function and mines cannot be used on offence as effectively as stickies

Nader and Fletcher do have different rolls. One is an engineer and one is an assault, but the stickies are VERY close to nader grenades in how they work and he is as kill oriented as a nader, and is almost always just better than fragger because his stickies not only cooldown faster and detonate significantly faster (even faster than cooked grenades because you still need to count the time to cook the things) he has three of them that if they stick cannot be dodged even if you kill him. He just has to respawn and detonate them.

He is an assault merc with objectives specialist, and that is really dumb. As dumb as a medic being a better sniper than a sniper.

At the very least his bombs need to despawn if he dies

(Ballto) #80

[quote="-BigRed;152589"]I
@Ballto Sparks had more potential than any sniper class pre-nerf. Your comparison isnt valid. Hip fire 120 hp, no reload, the quick charge was fast, med packs, and full health revives from anywhere vs Vassili who can I shot from range but has to scope in, and cant heal at all? He can detect enemies. Its so easy to find and destroy the sensor.[/quote]

Fletcher has more offensive potential than any engineer class. His bombs are pinpoint 100 hp hipfire, no reload, detonation delay is fast especially with lockon (i think as fast or faster than sparks minimum charge) best situational automatic weapon and a CQC powerhouse in the form of the EMP 9/Bishlok and the ability to bunny hop in cqc spamming bombs VS proxy who can one shot most mercs up close but needs to set up prior with a few seconds delay leaves an audio signature low HP can be one shot by all explosives, semi autos (save Diress), remburg, and katana. Its very easy to hear and see mines especially compared to stickies which have no audio signature and glow. VS bushwhaker with limited CQC potential without the KEK needs to set up prior has an audio signature cant bunny hop place/aim turrets and turret only detect from one direction and are easily dodged, and even according to the devs needs to be babysat or its pretty ineffective.