Does Fletcher Really Need to be Changed?


(sneak) #181

[quote=“TheHel1x;162747”][quote=“sneak;162736”]I don’t need pointers to counter fletcher, especially not from someone of your… caliber.

The merc just needs to be fixed.[/quote]

Lay off the salt man… with that much sodium intake you gonna shrivel right up and die. Seriously, take a look at my posts… IDK why but I don’t really ever have a problem dodging bad Fletchers and taking them down. I’m not sure what the massive fuss is all about.[/quote]

Lay off the trolling man… seriously, don’t need any advice from you and I deal with Fletchers just fine.


(Eox) #182

[quote=“sneak;162652”]I can’t believe this is even being debated when it’s so blatantly obvious that Fletcher is broken as shit. It takes anywhere from 0 skill to .1 to play Fletcher while some other mercs go all the way to 11. That’s one more than 10, innit?

Fletcher risks nothing and spams stickies mindlessly around corners and over objects and isn’t punished at all if his stickies don’t hit. When they do hit they block player vision and do massive damage. There’s also no safe way to get out of the situation if they stick you. You can’t do anything to fight back. I see people say things like “just don’t get close to them”. Yeah, bullshit. They throw stickies very far as the stickies are affected by player momentum and the way the maps are designed there’s almost no way to do this while playing efficiently towards the objective. To top this off, most Fletcher players use shotguns which are overpowered on their own (due to relative skill required vs reward granted). Finally, they’re an objective specialist too? This just makes no sense at all.

Why does Fletcher have so many benefits and no drawbacks? It’s the only merc in the game that’s made this way, not to mention that his playstyle doesn’t really fit the game. All the other mercs are nothing like Fletcher as he’s just a spammy, no-aim-required merc. People say that about Nader but that’s not true and experienced players know that Nader is one of the mercs that requires more skill in this game.[/quote]

[quote=“Eox;161761”]
Yeah, because missing a pre-detonated direct hit just to see your sticky dealing a weak 40 hp damage and then dying like an idiot in front of a gun that outDPS your bombs by a mile is the perfect description of “being rewarded”. Like Fragger or Stoker are actually rewarded for being flanked while holding the frag grenade or the molotov that will just fall on the ground and kill themselves, with full cooldown kicking in. Great reward indeed.[/quote]

Posting my quote again, because relevant.

Fletcher’s drawback IS long range. His only truly viable ranged option is the Blishlok, but Blishlok is far from being the most reliable and powerful weapon in the game. Throwing the sticky bombs far does not mean that you will hit the target. There’s travel time entering into consideration. At this point, if you got directly hit by a sticky bomb from afar, it means that you didn’t paid attention.

Shotguns overpowered… Really ? If shotguns were that good they would be played in competition much more oftenly than they are. Shotguns have a terrible lack of range and can’t deal reliable headshot damage past five meters. When you know that DB have a mid-long ranged metagame at high level of play, I wouldn’t glare at a shotgun once.


(Szakalot) #183

travel time isnt the only drawback of long range throws - fletcher has to delay detonation to allow the sticky to reach the destination, which directly cuts on DPS


(TheHel1x) #184

I’m being dead serious. Going by what you posted it sounded like you were having a really hard time staying alive from all the airburst Stickies. Just trying to be helpful. You must be pretty paranoid if you take some friendly advice for trolling…


(Matuno) #185

[quote=“TheHel1x;162747”][quote=“sneak;162736”]I don’t need pointers to counter fletcher, especially not from someone of your… caliber.

The merc just needs to be fixed.[/quote]

Lay off the salt man… with that much sodium intake you gonna shrivel right up and die. Seriously, take a look at my posts… IDK why but I don’t really ever have a problem dodging bad Fletchers and taking them down. I’m not sure what the massive fuss is all about.[/quote]

Helix, I’m sorry to say this, but nothing you’ve said has been true or even relevant. You can call @sneak out for being ‘salty’, but at least -he- knows how to construct an argument.

@Jesus, THAT is an ad hominem.


(TheHel1x) #186

LOL now the haters are coming out. “Im sorry to say this” :expressionless: your just being ridiculous now. “Nothing” I have said is true or relevant? I am not sure how you can possibly think that is true… like, WTF? I don’t even know how you came up with that. You and Sneak buddies and you just trying to cover his 6? Sneak didn’t construct an argument… he cried like a bitch and offered no suggestions on how to balance Fletcher. If you want to continue with the off-topic hating do it in a PM, not on this forum. This is not the place.


(sneak) #187

[quote=“Eox;161761”]

Shotguns overpowered… Really ? If shotguns were that good they would be played in competition much more oftenly than they are. Shotguns have a terrible lack of range and can’t deal reliable headshot damage past five meters. When you know that DB have a mid-long ranged metagame at high level of play, I wouldn’t glare at a shotgun once.[/quote]

I’ve already explained the reason Fletcher is a problem but you seem to be confused. I’m not going to go over the exact same points again. As far as shotguns go, just because they’re overpowered doesn’t mean they’d be used constantly in competitive. Competitive players tend to be higher skilled than pubbers on average and that means they’d rather use the weapons and mercs which give a higher payoff in total than get a few cheap kills with a shotgun or Fletcher. Yes, engagement distance is higher and people aim better in competitive than in pubs, but the main mode of the game is still pubs and just because in competitive (which is by the way the less populated division of the game) doesn’t use shotguns doesn’t mean they should remain overpowered in pubs.

I’m being dead serious. Going by what you posted it sounded like you were having a really hard time staying alive from all the airburst Stickies. Just trying to be helpful. You must be pretty paranoid if you take some friendly advice for trolling…[/quote]

Not really, I just know the reality that other people don’t know because they don’t know anything about us. I know what you’re doing and it’s cute that you’re pretending to be this way in public.

LOL now the haters are coming out. “Im sorry to say this” :expressionless: your just being ridiculous now. “Nothing” I have said is true or relevant? I am not sure how you can possibly think that is true… like, WTF? I don’t even know how you came up with that. You and Sneak buddies and you just trying to cover his 6? Sneak didn’t construct an argument… he cried like a bitch and offered no suggestions on how to balance Fletcher. If you want to continue with the off-topic hating do it in a PM, not on this forum. This is not the place.[/quote]

I have no idea who that guy is but just because he disagrees with you doesn’t make his reply off-topic. I did construct my argument well for Fletcher while you’re just trying to be sly in public and “help me out like a bud”.


(TheHel1x) #188

[quote=“sneak;162959”]Not really, I just know the reality that other people don’t know because they don’t know anything about us. I know what you’re doing and it’s cute that you’re pretending to be this way in public.

I have no idea who that guy is but just because he disagrees with you doesn’t make his reply off-topic. I did construct my argument well for Fletcher while you’re just trying to be sly in public and “help me out like a bud”.
[/quote]

Look dude. I have moved on. If your still dwelling on it then fine, Ill leave you alone. I really was just attempting to be helpful.


(Eox) #189

[quote=“sneak;162959”][quote=“Eox;161761”]

Shotguns overpowered… Really ? If shotguns were that good they would be played in competition much more oftenly than they are. Shotguns have a terrible lack of range and can’t deal reliable headshot damage past five meters. When you know that DB have a mid-long ranged metagame at high level of play, I wouldn’t glare at a shotgun once.[/quote]

I’ve already explained the reason Fletcher is a problem but you seem to be confused. I’m not going to go over the exact same points again. As far as shotguns go, just because they’re overpowered doesn’t mean they’d be used constantly in competitive. Competitive players tend to be higher skilled than pubbers on average and that means they’d rather use the weapons and mercs which give a higher payoff in total than get a few cheap kills with a shotgun or Fletcher. Yes, engagement distance is higher and people aim better in competitive than in pubs, but the main mode of the game is still pubs and just because in competitive (which is by the way the less populated division of the game) doesn’t use shotguns doesn’t mean they should remain overpowered in pubs.
[/quote]

I don’t see anything that explain it in a decent maneer in your first post actually. All I see is “shotguns are OP because they require low skill for great reward”, which does not explain anything. You don’t seem to know how crippling that kind of weapon is. It’s just impossible to score reliably good hits past five meters between the shotgun user an a random enemy. Meanwhile the other guy started to gun down the shotgun user from the other side of the corridor. And don’t get me started about headshots : they’re worthless as long as you aren’t hugging the enemy thanks to the spread, while every other character will be able to empty their whole clip right in your face. Even on Underground, the so called “shotgun heaven”, I wouldn’t use them. They’re way too unreliable. Add to this that missing a shotgun shot is extremely punitive due to the low RoF.

The only reason why shotguns are good in pubs is due to the general chaos. We shouldn’t balance around mess. Or at least not too much. Something that only work in pubs and will never work in competition need a rework, not nerfs.


(TheHel1x) #190

[quote=“Eox;163004”]I don’t see anything that explain it in a decent maneer in your first post actually. All I see is “shotguns are OP because they require low skill for great reward”, which does not explain anything. You don’t seem to know how crippling that kind of weapon is. It’s just impossible to score reliably good hits past five meters between the shotgun user an a random enemy. Meanwhile the other guy started to gun down the shotgun user from the other side of the corridor. And don’t get me started about headshots : they’re worthless as long as you aren’t hugging the enemy thanks to the spread, while every other character will be able to empty their whole clip right in your face. Even on Underground, the so called “shotgun heaven”, I wouldn’t use them. They’re way too unreliable. Add to this that missing a shotgun shot is extremely punitive due to the low RoF.

The only reason why shotguns are good in pubs is due to the general chaos. We shouldn’t balance around mess. Or at least not too much. Something that only work in pubs and will never work in competition need a rework, not nerfs.[/quote]

I dont think Shotguns even belong in the game TBH. They are shit at mid-range and op AF at close-range. They break up the flow of the game IMHO.


(hoops) #191

In what world is a merc who can dish out 3 x 100 damage with ease AND clear an objective considered balanced?

“He sucks at mid range though”
“Honestly if you got killed just get good”

The bombs have a relatively fast travel time. Not only that, but you dont even need to hit your target directly since air-detting is a thing. Also, excessive movement has no effect on the accuracy of the throws. Match that with a short cooldown and you’ve got a broken ability. If a bomb gets remotely close to a sub-100 HP merc, they’re pretty much done. A direct takes down everyone up to a phoenix, and, since the cooldown is so low, another bomb can be popped for the finish.


(Eox) #192

[quote=“hoops;163155”]In what world is a merc who can dish out 3 x 100 damage with ease AND clear an objective considered balanced?

“He sucks at mid range though”
“Honestly if you got killed just get good”

The bombs have a relatively fast travel time. Not only that, but you dont even need to hit your target directly since air-detting is a thing. Also, excessive movement has no effect on the accuracy of the throws. Match that with a short cooldown and you’ve got a broken ability. If a bomb gets remotely close to a sub-100 HP merc, they’re pretty much done. A direct takes down everyone up to a phoenix, and, since the cooldown is so low, another bomb can be popped for the finish.
[/quote]

You don’t care about the total amount of damage you deal. You care about the time you take to deal damage and kill. Also, to earn 100 damage, you need to directly hit someone with your sticky bombs and detonate. Simple against low level players who are likely to have slow reflexes, way harder against decent people that will start to shoot right at your face at the first second you show yourself. Travel time + detonation time is exponentially crippling over distance. Relatively fast travel time ? Please : it’s way slower than Nader’s GL. Also, air detonation will decrease your damage dealt depending of how far your target is from the center of the explosion. Since the explosion radius is small, it can be a very important damage loss.

The sticky bomb’s DPS is only up to 100 in the best conditions (direct hits only). Meanwhile, every single gun in the game has a DPS equal or superior to 120. That same DPS doubles if you aim for the head. If a Fletcher player wants to direct hit someone, he has to anticipate his movement. Meanwhile, any other merc would just use a hitscan weapon and start to deal damage instantly. Sticky bombs are ill suited for duels and mid-long range encounters, but it definitely looks like nobody understands that.

Mercs below 100 hps are the fastest. If you can’t dodge a rather slow projectile with them, you got outplayed. And you don’t even need to dodge them totally. Just dodging a part of the explosion while fighting back will mitigate enough damage to give you an advantage.


(sonsofaugust5) #193

Fletcher is nothing close to the assault power of nader or fragger. When I play against a good set of players I opt for using the blishlok most of the time. Unless I can stay super close quarters I’m almost dead before my sticky goes off. If you play against unexperienced players, yes he dominates.


(TheHel1x) #194

All truth.


(Naonna) #195

Fletcher instantly counters any light merc or medic who’s name isn’t Sawbonez. In a pub game, which is all Eox plays, despite acting like Fletcher should be balanced for comp, (prep for a dislike on this comment for quoting him,) combating a Fletcher is more of a risk;

If you’re mid-to-long range, even a few missed stickies can lop off health from squishy mercs. Given his secondaries for some of his shotgun load outs (empire 9) it’s not exactly hard to do reasonable damage at the effective range of his stickies.

The reason I do well with Fletcher (and very few other mercs) in pubs isn’t just the low skill levels of those I play against (compared to competitive). The reason I do well is that fletcher’s machine pistol works wonders for mid-range and finishing off enemies. His stickies make him a corner god and 1shot any merc fast enough to jump around the stickies, while making any merc using a deployable ability worthless. (As Fletcher, if you ever die to a proxy mine, shame on you.) The load outs with a shotgun instead of the blish allow him to chunk anyone who survived a sticky at close range even without a head shot.

I’m aware that strictly fragging classes have greater firepower. Fletcher is an engineer though: NOT a fragging class. So how is it I can consistantly kill people with stickies with more consistency than a cooked Fragger nade?

I do well with Fletcher. It doesn’t mean that I think he’s balanced. The idea that you can counter him by ‘avoiding corners’ and ‘moving erratically’ is NOT a way to combat him; Those are ways to avoid him all together and pray he doesn’t just switch weapons while you’re wall jumping and letting your spread widen.

If your argument is ‘don’t play a light class against Fletcher’ then how is he balanced in any way? It’s like saying ‘don’t stand anywhere in line of a sniper.’ The only thing keeping you alive at that point is the sniper’s incompetence. Alternatively, you can pray the sniper targets someone besides you. That’s not counter play, that’s luck.

Out ranging Fletcher only works in situations which allow it. On chapel outside of the houses, sure. Fletcher is easy to combat. In bridge first point…? Less so.

If Fletcher wants to be a fragging class, let him: but don’t give him bonuses such as being an engie, or let him be ALWAYS be better than proxy.
(As a question to the fletcher ‘mains:’ When would you EVER run proxy over fletcher?)

+1 dislike from Eox. Calling it.
…probably Hel1x too. (good sport)

*post-edit 2 - Quote is 20’th from the top on page 5 of this discussion. - Thanks for the flag. Read the rest of my post now.


(Eox) #196

Looks like you decided to not be constructive anymore and start personal attacks.


(neverplayseriou) #197

@Naonna just let him, he needs to protect his op merc so he can continue going barely positive.

And another point, fletcher stickies easily do better than a fragger nade ever since those started to direct all dmg to only 1 or 2 targets in an entire group, so what’s better a nade with a long cd that barely affects anyone or 3 stickies that can kill an entire group of people…?


(TheHel1x) #198

LOL!!!


(AnimeDude) #199

@Naonna Agreed I would remove airbursting entirely and increase the arm time to actually give you a window to react to them or kill who stuck you, or just decrease the damage. Getting insta-melted by a fletcher that you know had no intention of sticking you always feels like bullshit because even if they missed they would still chip off half your health while hopping around like the floor is lava, then afterwards mop you up with the empire-9 or whatever weapon they prefer. Whenever a fletcher comes flying around the corner, it’s either rip you or rip half your healthbar.


(AnimeDude) #200

It’s almost as if you complety ignored his entire post and then flagged him.