Do you want a vote forfeit option for comp?

Lumi · 2015-10-04 08:40:05 UTC

Again, I feel like showing in the forums how long someone has been playing the game is important as I feel you haven’t played it a lot. The competitive mode is filled with three kinds of people:

A minority of people who actually want to compete
A small amount of people who want to play with friends and cannot be bothered with switching teams in pubs
A majority of single players who are in comp just to get the credits from the missions.

The later bunch of people are those who currently don’t give a damn about leaving and harsher penalties wouldn’t change anything in keeping them from leaving. They are playing comp against their will, just because otherwise they lose out on credits from missions. And the 500 credits reward is not what is going to motivate them to go through 20min of frustration due to spawn killing. It’s not enough. And losing the ability to play something they do not enjoy is not a real threat to anyone.

The only thing you’ll achieve with those harsh penalties is to depopulate comp completely. Way to go…

Jurmabones · 2015-10-04 13:50:26 UTC

I think adding forfeit would be a mistake outside of situations where someone has abandoned the match, then I can see that team being allowed to run a forfeit vote. Otherwise it’ll turn into something teams start doing the moment they perceive something other than assured victory.

The main issue with comp is the lack of players. Adding a forfeit option might bring in some people initially who think to themselves, “Man, it’s so frustrating getting into a broken match. I wish I could just forfeit and move on to the next.” What such people aren’t realizing is that forfeit vote doesn’t address or solve any issue, it’s treating a symptom.

The problem is it doesn’t change the fact that comp lacks players and therefore lacks suitable matchmaking. After forfeiting so many matches, the same people who thought adding a forfeit vote would somehow fix comp would eventually quit out of frustration from the fact that balanced matches don’t exist and they’re forfeiting so often. The fact that a forfeit vote seems necessary in the first place.

They’d still be frustrated at their slim odds of completing their “Win 1 competitive match” mission without going through many, many games. They’d realize eventually that adding a forfeit just made being frustrated more convenient and less time-consuming.

Besides the fact I dislike the notion of forfeiting comp (how are you ever going to improve if you try to quit every time you think you’re going to lose?), I don’t see what it would actually accomplish in the grand scheme of things. Adding a forfeit vote is like trying to use buckets to scoop water out of the Titanic after hitting the iceberg.

I hate to admit it, but this game’s comp is probably irretrievably bad. There’s been a lot of players quitting Dirty Bomb since August and comp has always been underpopulated to begin with. There are just not enough players queuing up; there will never be balanced matches without some major influx of players and without their sticking around for a while.

Adding a forfeit vote would just make comp even worse. It would make it mean even less. There’s already a lack of players, rampant match abandonment and the like. Forfeit just allows for zero-punishment team-wide match abandonment. Why even play anymore if you know people are just going to vote to quit whenever they go against you?

At the end of the day, if you get into a lot of bad matches, you have to accept the common denominator to all of your matches are you. Obviously there’s a reason you feel compelled to forfeit so much in the first place, and it isn’t because there’s a lack of a forfeit vote. It’s because there’s something you are doing to make most of your matches a loss.

Either you’re queuing solo, or you’re bad at the game, or you don’t use a mic, or you don’t coordinate with the people you get queued with, etc. etc. But god forbid you ever change how you play. If only there was a forfeit vote to water the game down more!

Szakalot · 2015-10-04 14:18:18 UTC

[quote=“riptide;90243”][quote=“Szakalot;90231”]its hard to comprehend when your writing isnt clear. didnt know it was directed at me as i dont know whatcha talking bout, one person has to reject what?

i dont disagree with many of the proposed changes, except 2. oh and 3 is a change like ‘make the game better’ obviously i agree but its a pipedream[/quote]

I was referring to only 1 person from each team having to reject the queue. This way you can keep the 2 minute penalty longer. I also pointed out that on a fresh account you don’t actually have to win too many consecutive games to rank up. [/quote]

a fresh account doesn’t actually rank up. Similarly to CSGO, there are placement matches after which your rank is being determined. I honestly don’t know how the ranking system works in this game, and I’m not sure even the devs do ; P

But really none of that matters, because there’s no reason to care about rank at the moment. Anyway what part about leavers getting punished and the game being disregarded bothers you?

Do you think wins and losses should be subjected to the RNG of who has the most/least leavers? Do you not think the penalty should be stiff enough to make them think twice? It works in dota, I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work here.

I have no problem with punishing leavers, indeed leavers should suffer harsher penalties. But I don’t see how a leaver leaving should take away the win&loss situation. Imo if you make people ragequit, you still deserve the win. I don’t see how much RNG it is to have the most/least leavers. Seems to me like you are exaggerating some issues, similarly with those abuse scenarios.

On the other hand, at the moment it seems a lot of people actually get dropped from games, not leaving but simply d/c; many of which return later. This will have to be solved first before punishing people for getting dropped.

Also, why is 3 a pipe dream? It’s actually that way in cs:go.

DB is not the most successful FPS game ever (yet): it took years before CS:GO developed overwatch. ATM. there are a lot more pressing issues to deal with than this. Maybe one day.

riptide · 2015-10-04 19:48:32 UTC

[quote=“Lumi;90348”]@riptide

Again, I feel like showing in the forums how long someone has been playing the game is important as I feel you haven’t played it a lot. The competitive mode is filled with three kinds of people:

A minority of people who actually want to compete
A small amount of people who want to play with friends and cannot be bothered with switching teams in pubs
A majority of single players who are in comp just to get the credits from the missions.

The later bunch of people are those who currently don’t give a damn about leaving and harsher penalties wouldn’t change anything in keeping them from leaving. They are playing comp against their will, just because otherwise they lose out on credits from missions. And the 500 credits reward is not what is going to motivate them to go through 20min of frustration due to spawn killing. It’s not enough. And losing the ability to play something they do not enjoy is not a real threat to anyone.

The only thing you’ll achieve with those harsh penalties is to depopulate comp completely. Way to go…[/quote]

I’ve been playing this game on and off for 2+ years. Your assumption is way off base. Btw you keep bringing up credits and even xp like they matter. One is extremely easy to get and unnecessary with money and the other is 100% pointless.

The person with the competitive mission that doesn’t care about the game is being selfish. There’s 9 other people that will be affected by their actions which is way more important than a few credits. So I say to them, please skip your competitive missions.

You actually do rank up when you’re playing your placement matches. It’s just hidden, otherwise how would you properly get placed? You’d know this if you smurfed in CS. The more wins the higher your enemy teams rank is, which means the higher rank you are. Think of it as your hidden MMR in WoW. Your rating might only be 2000 but if you’re playing 2500 players, you’re most definitely not an 2000 player. That just means your actual rating hasn’t caught up yet.

I’ve played 16 competitive matches this last week and the majority(read 9, that I can recall) have had at least 1 leaver on either team . A good portion of those happened before the game started. Granted small sample size is small, but in my small circle leavers are rampant. With or without being spawn camped.

One of the times we were winning 4v5 and we still had yet another teammate leave at the half. Despite holding them for 15 minutes on chapel and dominating them in kills. We still won 3v5, so it’s not like the enemy team was good. I assume it was just the fact that he had to actually work for a win and that is honestly too much for the average gamer these days.

If people leave enough they get banned. It won’t take long for them to learn to not queue if they aren’t going to play the match. Besides, why should anyone be punished because their teammate has no heart? Half the time it’s the deadweight leaving the game. They just lash out at their team because they can’t handle losing.

Also, why would any decent player care about an easy win? Especially a win that wasn’t on even ground? I mean the dota community is one of the worst and most petty. Yet they are fine with leavers nulling stats for the game. Because they know it’s better in the long run.

triteTongs · 2015-10-04 20:03:56 UTC

[quote=“Resine;90145”]People would abuse this feature, something not right? lets forfeit, can’t do the objective, let’s forfeit, opponents too strong let’s forfeit.
The last thing i want from the Dirty Bomb, is to wait 2-3 minutes for a match just to win because the opponents didn’t feel like fighting back.
Why do you need it?
If you attack you should fight to the very end, if you defend there is exact timer and once the point it’s done the game is over.
I don’t see a single reason why we need an options like this, beside for some scrubs that can’t stand losing.[/quote]

Maybe this is more of a problem with the idea of stopwatch.

You can often confirm an outcome in the first few minutes of playing. If the defending team is strong and you can’t seem to push through at a specific time, chances are they will do it faster than you since it’s clear they are better.

Even as defense, that ‘exact timer’ doesn’t account for how far they have to go through the map with the EV, for instance. If there’s 5 minutes left on the timer there’s NO WAY they will be able to do 3-4 objectives AND push the EV. If you are not keeping up with the set time then you probably lost.

I see this a lot on pubs too. That just tells me the mode is completely broken and it’s way too skill-heavy to offer a fair fight to such a small playerbase. Is this the reason we see objective servers filled more than stopwatch servers?

SlixFaz · 2015-10-04 21:08:07 UTC

Robber: Show me where are your money at!
Me: WAIT! I’m playing competitive and I can’t leave give me a few seconds
(few seconds later…)
Robber: down yet?
Me: NO! JEEZ DONT YOU KNOW THIS IS IMPORTANT TO ME?

Szakalot · 2015-10-04 21:25:48 UTC

Good point @triteTongs , though its not a problem with stopwatch but a problem with the defense-biased maps. Ideally, a stopwatch map is attacker-sided, so the question isn’t ‘how far you can get’ (as is often the case on chapel/trainyard/terminal/bridge, not as much on underground) but ‘who can get there faster’.

If you are attacking against a better team you would no longer struggle to complete objectives at all, just do them slower than the opponent when sides are switched. This provides much more exciting matches, and I do hope that changes are made to spawning systems (asymmetrical spawn times, asymmetrical spawn timers) to address this.

riptide · 2015-10-04 21:28:28 UTC

[quote=“saltyCruller;90520”]Robber: Show me where are your money at!
Me: WAIT! I’m playing competitive and I can’t leave give me a few seconds
(few seconds later…)
Robber: down yet?
Me: NO! JEEZ DONT YOU KNOW THIS IS IMPORTANT TO ME?[/quote]

How often do you get robbed? I can tell you put almost no thought into that. At least I’d hope that you didn’t.

Lumi · 2015-10-04 23:19:38 UTC

[quote=“Szakalot;90523”]Good point @triteTongs , though its not a problem with stopwatch but a problem with the defense-biased maps. Ideally, a stopwatch map is attacker-sided, so the question isn’t ‘how far you can get’ (as is often the case on chapel/trainyard/terminal/bridge, not as much on underground) but ‘who can get there faster’.

If you are attacking against a better team you would no longer struggle to complete objectives at all, just do them slower than the opponent when sides are switched. This provides much more exciting matches, and I do hope that changes are made to spawning systems (asymmetrical spawn times, asymmetrical spawn timers) to address this.[/quote]

I agree, at least on EV maps, the spawns should have a constant distance to the EV and not like now, where as soon as the EV passes the barrier on bridge, the attacking team starts spawning right on top of the EV, same for Chapel where on the last few meters, the defence spawns right at the EV.

Finally, cases where a fast attacker in underground rushes the second bomb site after blowing up the first and is literally behind the defenders spawn and the typical case of the defence still holding the U-turn but the attackers starting to spawn right on it, need to be fixed. Instead of having those spawns time based, they should be based on a distance to the gross of players or most forward player if the objective has been planted.

but lets get back to the topic at hand. Vote forfeit.

Jurmabones · 2015-10-05 02:34:52 UTC

Losing a lot of comp matches is caused by a skill disparity between you/your team and your opponents. Adding a mechanic to avoid being punished for dodging losses in comp (forfeit vote) won’t change that fact.

At the end of the day you’re still going to be frustrated because you’re losing. You’re just using the lack of a forfeit vote to target your frustration rather than admitting the real reason you’re frustrated: you’re losing.

Whether you’re bad, solo queuing, don’t use a mic, don’t want to bother making friends to queue with, whatever, the point is you’re doing something or multiple things that contribute to losing regularly.

In your mind matchmaking is unfair and you should be allowed to quit without any penalty. You think comp would be decent and less frustrating if you could just forfeit. A lack of forfeit vote isn’t causing you to lose, so adding a forfeit vote wouldn’t get rid of you or other players’ frustrations at losing.

Eventually it’d bother you that you have to forfeit so often. You’d realize how pathetic comp is just for the fact that a forfeit vote exists. That it’s entirely meaningless with a forfeit vote. You’d realize the real issue is a lack of players queuing for comp, and/or a lack of skill/dedication to winning on your part.

FireWorks · 2015-10-05 08:38:10 UTC

[quote=“Lumi;90127”][quote=“FireWorks;90058”]I think kind of abuse we will see is more of a different nature, not mainly spammed fake accounts. Some will just want to farm their ranks and they will simply forfeit themselves against an equal team. With 20-40min for a possible loss, they will forfeit and farm 4-8 forfeits of bad matchings in the same time.

Its not enjoyable, but some people will do it, as sick as it may sound. Similar to cheaters instagibbing you in the spawn all match just sell the cobalt account later. People can be very special and some play their own games…[/quote]

I think you’re not understanding something here… Forfeiting will make your rank drop, not go up. So people who vote forfeit will get their rank dropped. And that is, only if DB doesn’t decide to make forfeit a neutral action, with no rank change.

In any scenario, why would you forfeit 4 to 8 times to lose rank? You could not possibly decide who you would be forfeiting against and as you drop in rank the enemies you’ll face will have a lower rank to match yours, so even if you’re trying to up the opponents’ rank by forfeiting repeatedly, you’ll be upping random people’s rank and different people each forfeit.

You just don’t make sense.[/quote]

Please read the post again.

tl;dr
You lose one match instantly to farm 4-8wins afterwards. 3-7 wins bargain in the same time where you would compete for a potential loss.

Got it now?

Szakalot · 2015-10-05 08:51:36 UTC

[quote=“FireWorks;90642”][quote=“Lumi;90127”][quote=“FireWorks;90058”]I think kind of abuse we will see is more of a different nature, not mainly spammed fake accounts. Some will just want to farm their ranks and they will simply forfeit themselves against an equal team. With 20-40min for a possible loss, they will forfeit and farm 4-8 forfeits of bad matchings in the same time.

Its not enjoyable, but some people will do it, as sick as it may sound. Similar to cheaters instagibbing you in the spawn all match just sell the cobalt account later. People can be very special and some play their own games…[/quote]

I think you’re not understanding something here… Forfeiting will make your rank drop, not go up. So people who vote forfeit will get their rank dropped. And that is, only if DB doesn’t decide to make forfeit a neutral action, with no rank change.

In any scenario, why would you forfeit 4 to 8 times to lose rank? You could not possibly decide who you would be forfeiting against and as you drop in rank the enemies you’ll face will have a lower rank to match yours, so even if you’re trying to up the opponents’ rank by forfeiting repeatedly, you’ll be upping random people’s rank and different people each forfeit.

You just don’t make sense.[/quote]

Please read the post again.

tl;dr
You lose one match instantly to farm 4-8wins afterwards. 3-7 wins bargain in the same time where you would compete for a potential loss.

Got it now?[/quote]

why would it be 4-8 wins? and not a square root of 2?

FireWorks · 2015-10-05 09:05:07 UTC

May I direct you to my initial post, too.

Lumi · 2015-10-05 09:35:41 UTC

[quote=“FireWorks;90642”]

Please read the post again.

tl;dr
You lose one match instantly to farm 4-8wins afterwards. 3-7 wins bargain in the same time where you would compete for a potential loss.

Got it now?[/quote]

Ehm, are you really assuming that all games are going to be forfeit voted in the second minute after it started? The most use of it will be 5min before the end if a game seems unbeatable, or if there is an actual issue, like spawn killing or cheaters.

And so what if people forfeit because they can’t? That loss would still happen. Results are not changed. Allowing people to play more fun games than shitty ones is actually a good thing. You just want people to play half an hour of shit comp so that their progression in comp isn’t as fast?

Yeah, that one is a load of bs anyway. If you’re being stomped there’s nothing to be learned. But maybe I should direct you to my initial reply to that initial post?

FireWorks · 2015-10-05 10:18:34 UTC

I dont know if you actually play comp mode, it doesnt make the sound of it.

I had the chance to spend over 15 matches on friday with some friends. We got beaten once and had 2 closer matches. The rest were stomps and both sides knew it pretty fast.
Basically its a farm fest of total mismatches, if that is the intention you have.

Now, image how that would have been with forfeits. Sure, those matches were ended faster, by a lot. And then wed get even more poor souls fed to us, that could have just forfeited faster and faster.
The matchmaking gives you weak opponents after 3minutes of searching without a good match. And then it goes omnom…

If you want to abuse the forfeit, you even make this a self fulfilling prophecy and tell your enemies right at the start how MM fucked it up again and that youre premade vs some weaker players and that they should quit fast to end. Some will bite, some wont, but you come closer to your farming target.
You really think this is a good thing to happen?

Sorry but I cant see a general forfeit vote happen. People will abuse this to the bone, if the implementation is weak. And it will be weak.

Its a bandaid for the underlying problem of lacking skillbalance.

FireWorks · 2015-10-05 10:26:36 UTC

From a different thread:

This is the pure essence of the problem complex we are all facing:

Lumi · 2015-10-05 11:50:15 UTC

[quote=“FireWorks;90657”]I dont know if you actually play comp mode, it doesnt make the sound of it.

I had the chance to spend over 15 matches on friday with some friends. We got beaten once and had 2 closer matches. The rest were stomps and both sides knew it pretty fast.
Basically its a farm fest of total mismatches, if that is the intention you have.

Now, image how that would have been with forfeits. Sure, those matches were ended faster, by a lot. And then wed get even more poor souls fed to us, that could have just forfeited faster and faster.
The matchmaking gives you weak opponents after 3minutes of searching without a good match. And then it goes omnom…

If you want to abuse the forfeit, you even make this a self fulfilling prophecy and tell your enemies right at the start how MM fucked it up again and that youre premade vs some weaker players and that they should quit fast to end. Some will bite, some wont, but you come closer to your farming target.
You really think this is a good thing to happen?

Sorry but I cant see a general forfeit vote happen. People will abuse this to the bone, if the implementation is weak. And it will be weak.

Its a bandaid for the underlying problem of lacking skillbalance.
[/quote]

You just spend half this post giving credit to everything me and pro vote forfeit people have said!

Because according to you, stomping people should be a repetitive thing, so you don’t win too many successive times too fast, and there should be no vote forfeit and those getting stomped should suck it up and suffer through it. That is ridiculous!

Stomping teams will always exist, no doubt about that and as long as the MM isn’t reworked and premade teams are allowed to fight solo players, the only way to remove frustration that is currently befalling the majority of players is vote forfeit.

And I’m sorry, but is not because you can’t see it happen that it shouldn’t happen. Actually, people have spoken and you’re part of a minority. People want and need vote forfeit, because the current comp games suck and are more of a “making people leave” tool than any advantage the game has to offer. And no matter how you think, Nexon and Splash Damage need to make their game enjoyable for the majority of the community, not the minority, otherwise you’ll be a handful playing on a single server in not too long, before the entire thing is shut down.

FireWorks · 2015-10-05 12:25:51 UTC

[quote=“Lumi;90673”][quote=“FireWorks;90657”]I dont know if you actually play comp mode, it doesnt make the sound of it.