Do designers PLAY the games they MAKE??

(Carcifier) #1

  1. I’m posting here because Splash Damage has proven they can make great stuff.

  2. I’ve probably played every FPS in existence from the original Wolfenstein on up.

  3. I got mad skillz.

  4. I’m talking only about public servers below.

How is it, that no developer has EVER fixed the “spawn camping” issue, when it comes to multiplayer FPS??

Every FPS is beseiged by adolescent trolls who live to spawn camp or in some other way take advantage of poor design. We see this in Enemy Territory as well. It’s in every shooter. WHY??

In Enemy Territory it is probably most notable on the Tug board where the Axis are on offense and they must move ammo to the Rail Gun(I forget the actual name of the board). If the Axis are overpowered, they often end up pinned to their spawn spot.

The game becomes quickly unplayable as Allied Field Ops will call in millions of artillery strikes and getting out of the Axis base is very difficult, providing a huge edge to the Allies. I’ve never seen an Axis team win when this happens.

Enemy Territory follows a similar approach that many FPS have tried…temporary invunerability. This helps, but only in a very small way. It is totally ineffective.

I can’t write this complaint without offering solutions. Which isn’t easy, having never designed a FPS, but here goes…

  1. Eliminate the issue by designing boards so that the spawn points are not campable. This is a very general statement, but its the circumvent the issue option.

A side caveat of this, is how truly amazing it is that many level designers seem to almost cater to campers. How many times have you played a board and thought…“man, this is so easy to spawn camp and dominate.” A major part of the issue is crappy level design.

  1. Longer invunerability. (likely a poor solution)

  2. A safe zone around spawn spot. You are invunerable as long as you stay in it. You can shoot out of it. Once you leave, you are vunerable, even if you go back in. (this option at least lets you survey the field before you get carcified)

  3. Temporary Invisibility (ugly and unpractical solution)

  4. Eliminate single spawn spots, where the enemy can focus its attention.

Enemy Territory allows you to pick secondary and sometimes tertiary spawn points. However, this is not enough. Possibly random spawning in your half of the board? Other games have tried this, not sure it works well. Not to mention the additional down sides.

  1. An overwhelming tactical advantage to your spawn spot, one which also keeps the enemy from the “high ground”. This goes back to level design, hard to avoid.

The solution, whatever it may be, should also eliminate the “your model enters the world before you do” situation. This is where, people see you appear in the world, however you do not have control over your character…yet.

Anyone who has played a FPS has seen the “zombie warrior” spawn and many shoot them. It’s also quite disorientating to spawn in the middle of a firefight you don’t know you are engaged in.

Lastly, I don’t think designers pay enough attention to the “troll” factor. You cannot give them the tools they need to ruin the experience or they will, every time.

(Sick Boy) #2

My solution would be to create areas around spawns where you cannot throw artillery, airstrikes, mines or satchel charges. So spawncamping would then be limited to the normal weapons. I know, you can spawncamp perfectly well with panzers and flamethrowers or even SMG’s but it would at least be better imo than the current situation.

([=O=]SMYLER) #3

As long as you’re not IN the enemy spawn, it’s fair game. Also a lot of “spawn camping” is incorrectly labelled as such, as the position being camped is “forward deployment” which is also fair game and if you can’t look after that you’re obviously shite and should buy a console and kill your parents because life is so unfair :disgust: and it’s all their fault, after all you didn’t ask to be born :bored:.

(Vaticool) #4

IMHO it’s related to map design.

The only map I consider in ET as “Spawn-Camping Friendly” is railgun as Axis.
And the explanation is easy: there is only one way for Axis to escape from spawn. (When Deport Yard is Allies)
And the only way (physical) has tiny width :???:

So camping in forward deployment is not fair, in this case.

(Danyboy) #5

Well actaully this has been taken into consideration because the spawn points do not have only 1 route out to the rest of the map - the axis spawn on Rail - though tight has 2 entracnes (granted not the best of things)

But allied spawn has 3 entrances on that map - i think it is a feature of most map makers - just that the rail yard is a bit on the skinny side - if there was a route out the back towards the forward deployment area then it would release a bit of “clogging” - but hey im usually the one to join the game and brea a whole thru the camping allies - phear my 1337 skillz :stuck_out_tongue:

(Vaticool) #6

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Come on, mate, let’s break these field ops noobs :drink:

(twiFight) #7

I’m totally agreeing to the topicstarter.

My suggestion is a spawnzone instead of a spawnpoint.
That way spawncamping will be harder - if not impossible. And at the same time it gets rid of the annoying moment when 8 axis want to go through the same door at the same time.

And airstrike should not work in those zones. Air strike is probably the most abused thing in the whole game.

(Ranstaton) #8

I was actually kicked from a server because I was trying to stop the axis (my team) guys from going into the allied spawn on the beach in battery.

Of course we were spamming the shit out of them on the beach but a few guys were running down there and actually getting into their spawn, so I tried to kick them because not only would they lose us the game, it just isn’t fun having the enemy in your respawn as well as surrounding it. So I tried to votekick the dumbasses and apparently one was an admin or something and he kicked me…

My friend told him that I was trying to stop them from camping inside the spawn and the guy was a total ass-whore…

(CoBraLorD) #9

Well, I know the railgun map is indeed most spawncampable (axis are teh suckors there), and Seawall Battery is probably next in line with the FFE fest on the allied spawn (allthough there are a few more alternatives to that spawn, I find them just not good enough).

The biggest problem with railgun for example is the fact you can’t get out of the spawn are (the enclosed area around the cabin) fast enough. Especially if you get stuck for like 1 second cuz someone else is trying to get through the door at the same time (something that most certainly can’t be controlled on a public server).

But what is spawncamping. Well I know a guy that’s really good in duel, so he goes around spawncamping with his mp40. Now on public servers there are still a LOT of unexperienced players, and even so, he’s much much better than the average experienced player in duel. So basically he kept on killing people at their spawn, and when he got kicked he called the other guys the ‘noobs’ and ‘lamers’. Only he’s like the least teamplayer there is (he admits he’ll never change team, no matter how uneven, and basically he only plays for kills, every duel he might lose, he does ‘/kill’… go figure).

Anyway, a good guy running really close to the spawn (that’s like just outside the doorway in railgun) that manage to slaughter most players over and over again right after they spawned, is a spawncamper in my opinion. No matter the wapen he’s using, he’s just playing lame.

He ruins the already delicate gameplay for the other team. I myself am never really looking forward to the maps railgun and radar, just becuz they are too easily unbalanced. To be fair I’m not a bad player myself, and I’m sure as hell not mentioning this because I get slaughtered all the time at spawn (if it happens it’s always panzer or (mostly) ffe anyway, i’m moderate to good with smg myself. I do find the unbalanced teams often a problem and get pissed really quickly at what i consider lame players.

Haven’t had real problems with those yet (apart from the one I just mentioned, which to my great shame is a clanmate by the way) but on the two servers I admin I tend to allow laming a lot less from players that are good (especially if they know they’re good and act like it). Maybe unfair, but hey, I’d rather have 10 new ET players happy with a fair teamgame (even if they lose it entirely) than 1 clanmate cuz he gets lots of kills and did some nice noobbashing.

Pff, not really contributing to a solution here, I just wanted to reply to the ‘what is spawncamping’ thing. I think the only flaws concerning spawncamping in ET are the two maps mentioned, and that’s because of the bad spawnpoints in those maps. So it is map design. Other maps I find really balanced on that part. Maybe oasis tends to be a little FFE/PZF campy at the allied spawn (after they capped the flag), but usually they manage to get out of it after a while. Railgun… well… not many options there :frowning:

(bani) #10

because ET is free, it really seems to attract all the a**holes out there. if you ban their GUID they just delete it and get a new one and come right back :bash:

anyway im sick of the clanstackers of groups of 5-6 players on teamspeak who go round pubs “pwning noobs”, driving all the players off the server, and gloating about it.

often theyll drive the allies all the way back to their initial spawn, and keep them there with lame flamethrower + lt + med tactics. and hold them there a full 15-20 minutes, till the server empties out completely.

i dont really think there is any good universal way to handle this, other than asking the teamstacking spawncampers to leave the server and go abuse some other server.

ive experimented with various ways in a mod of dealing with spawncamping and none of them seem really satisfactory yet. i have a couple ideas still to try though…

(uglok) #11

People spawncamped Normandy irl, no one complained there :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m all for a 10-second-max spawn invul that ends automatically when the invulnerable person tries to shoot.

And if a player has not moved from their spawn position (idle) and has not fired a weapon, they should be invul indefinetely.

(twiFight) #12

I do not agree here. Ofcourse, better mapdesign would solve this problem (hopefully), but… it is NEVER NEVER NEVER the fault of mapdesign. Spawncamping is lame and wrong no matter what map you are playing. People should just NOT do it. Saying that the maps need better designing is ignoring the problem. The problem are spawncampers and that is the only problem.

I actually got votekicked for spawncamping yesterday. My jaw dropped to the floor since i wasn’t even past the middle of the map. It was on radar and i was standing on the bridge with a panzerfaust (I usually play engineer but no engineer slot was available). I blasted someone that was coming out of the bunker and he seconds later votekicked me. That is the other side of the whole spawncamping/kicking thing. Some people will as soon as they get shot cry about it and votekicking everybody on the server. In my not so humble opinion every person that is 16 years or older knows what is fair and mostly fun play (ppl younger than 16 shouldn’t be playing this game in the first place). I just hope some day earth will come to it’s senses and start playing the fun way. Cos I truly don’t give a fuck if i’m first or last, no xp or most xp, win map or lose map, i play for fun (sounds like a cliché but few people truly do play for fun). Spawncamping and votekicking everybody in sight is NOT playing for fun. I also wish more admins would spectate and keep the server a neat and fun server to play on, but I know that’s easier said than done.

(Freedom[]Tickler) #13

Bani is right,

I know b/c I am guilty of it. I prefer to play ET w/ freinds and we prefer to be on same team. We also use teamspeak, on a pub server it is a massively unfair advantage b/c we are all veteran players.

However, if we join the team thats getting spawn camped, we can break it w/ in minutes.

Spawn zones vrs spawn points is as a good idea, but this issue really is caused by very unbalanced teams.

I dont want to play on pub servers any more, I want to play pick-up games on passworded servers w/ other veteran players / clans. Im having a hard time finding the pick up scene and no luck yet finding clans to scrim or do pick-up play.

(uglok) #14

As much as spawncamping as a legitimate tactic does not bother me, it’s annoying as hell to be killed after 3 seconds and then sit out for 27 more seconds, only to die again.

(ToeD) #15

i know there are some pickup chans for europe, are you sure they dont have any in the us? and there are ladders for et @ teamwarfare (us i thought) and clanbase (europe)… i see a rather big amount of old rtcw clans that stopped with rtcw getting back with et now.

and about spawncamping, what else should you do if you are winning and you have to defend something? go turn around and run back to your own spawn? its just about one team being better than the other. nothing to do about it besides from just balancing the teams…

(Awol) #16

Railgun is really the only map where spawncamping happens badly most of the time the Axis only have one spawn and for most people 1 way out. Yes the windows work if you jump crouch but frankly I don’t expect many people know how to do that and then do it everytime. I can manage it but those windows are just big enough to do this and its a pain to do.

I warn spawncampers on my server to stop it. Some listen others don’t and they get kicked for 1000 minutes on my server. I haven’t banned anyone yet but repeat spawncampers will be banned.

As I said Railgun is the worst map cause of only one way out. It happens on battery as well but not as much. Fueldump is only a problem if Axis push the allies all the way back. The rest of the maps are generally fine.

(Vaticool) #17

To be exact:
I think we must consider the two level of spawncamping with railgun.

1- The ugliest is the one when Allies managed to go close to the door of the “spawn-house” and when you re in this situation, you are a bit helped by the side window … but you know teams are so unfair that game will end this way. This happens rarely, IMO.
Allies must be good to hold this spawn.

2- The less ugly play is when they stop ten meters before, close to the way from depot yard. And when I spoke of 2 WAYS, this is what I mean … following both rail tracks - left or right to escape Axis spawncamp.
And, obviously, field ops cut the way to Gun with thir damned air strike. This one happens much more often.
Why the hell are these ways so tight :???:
Why the hell you fall each time you walk not exactly on left rail track :???:

Allies can be dummies to hold their position ( field ops + MG + sniper).
Anyway I have a huge respect 4 map designers :clap:

(Carcifier) #18

Good comments everyone.

As for not contributing to it when its occuring, I myself, will not partake in it. If I am playing medic, I won’t heal or ressurrect people that spawn camp. Any other class and I fall back. What’s funny is, on some boards, spawn camping can be a really bad tactic. If someone gets behind you, you can lose because of it.

Unfortunately, it is definitively something that ruins gameplay on public servers, and always will.

For those that take the “macho” approach and say they can break it, I say not always. If you get some skilled people doing it, it is unstoppable. Take for instance, 4 skilled Field Ops on Railgun board. Have 2 on each side of the Axis spawn spot calling in Artillery Strikes non stop. There is no way to get out of camp without getting blown up. Since Railgun is not the first board in a campaign, skill levels are raised, allowing for faster and more frequent Artillery Strikes. In addition, the Command Post will be the property of the Allies, giving another bonus. Thirdly, the tower on Railgun is a great spot to call in Artillery from. The only thing you have to worry about is an odd Panzer shell visiting you.

I also ask my teamates to stop spawn camping if they are doing it. I often get told to go to hell and once was kicked for requesting it.

I find it amazing how easily amused the average person is. I like nothing better than a highly competitive game. Spawn dominating is so boring. I want a 30 min fight. One which has both teams working as teams.

This brings up a side note on winning the board in less than one minute. I have no idea why people do it. Some guy has a super fast computer, probably running on same network as server and he wins the board before anyone on the defense is spawned. Brilliant. No one advances their skills. The board is over in a minute. Wow, wasn’t that great. Warmup period on servers should be mandatory. We should have more of that, than staring at the stat screen after the game. But oh well, that’s another rant. :slight_smile:

(Mystiqq) #19

The maps are the first and further most problem when talking about spawn camping…
for instance in railgun. its impossible to effectively spawn camp at allied spawn. reason is pretty obvious.
some maps doesnt just make any sense in some parts. like battery. somewhat lame if u ask me… then again its me… so who cares :stuck_out_tongue:

im also very curious what do people actually like on spawn camping… 30 mins of pure enemy slaughtering… whoupdidoo… real fun… not

cheers
mystiqq

(bani) #20

spawncamping on pubs is lame to the extreme, anyone who does it is a complete luser.

spawncamping on clanmatches is another thing entirely, anything is fair game on clanmatches.