Devs ignoring the community on some issues (specifically jump-sniping nerfs)

[blonk]

Because fuck personal opinions and reality. If someone says a bullshit, which can happen to everyone specially in situation like streaming, then you correct them. If someone asks is the sky red and the first one says yes, the other one have to go for yes too ?

There’s correcting someone, and there’s using that as if it was a lynchpin to some argument and generally being an arse about it. I think you misunderstood my sentiment on the unified front thing, that’s more about professionalism than simply correcting for the sake of correcting. I’m sure you could see that the same argument could be made (the devs being “stupid” or “clueless”) if they disagreed or said contradictory things on the stream, right?

[Jesus2]

[quote=“Jesus;152376”]Because fuck personal opinions and reality. If someone says a bullshit, which can happen to everyone specially in situation like streaming, then you correct them. If someone asks is the sky red and the first one says yes, the other one have to go for yes too ?

There’s correcting someone, and there’s using that as if it was a lynchpin to some argument and generally being an arse about it. I think you misunderstood my sentiment on the unified front thing, that’s more about professionalism than simply correcting for the sake of correcting. I’m sure you could see that the same argument could be made (the devs being “stupid” or “clueless”) if they disagreed or said contradictory things on the stream, right?[/quote]

Since its about professionalism, Barroman should have corrected him just for that. Its better to get caught in confusion about what you said and admit you didnt think much when you said than approuving the bullshit and let everyone thinks the dev team is stupid.

[Matuno1]

I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.

[Jesus2]

[quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

Play CSGO then not DB

[Black2]

[quote=“Mercy;152365”]
The fact of the matter is that Smooth said it’s annoying and unexpected and that was the sole reason for the nerf according to him. “Annoying to play against” and “You don’t see it coming and can’t defend yourself” can be applied to a hundred other things in Dirty Bomb that require far less effort, and are certainly used or seen more often than someone having spent the time to acquire the reflexes to accurately nail you while fucking airborne.
As someone who plays Vassili and isn’t talking out of their ass just to be obstinate, I see this argument split between people who have invested time in playing him and people who haven’t. [/quote]
Best explanation yet.

I think what’s really ticking people off about this update is that the devs have yet to provide any real or non-anecdotal justification as to why it was added.
As far as I’m concerned it was removed because Smooth got butthurt when a Vassili jump shotted him.

Even when I didn’t play Vassili I had no problem with jump shotting as it was rare and when it happened I praised the player for his nice shot because I knew it takes some skill.

[pinkOrchid]

[quote=“Jesus;152426”][quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

Play CSGO then not DB[/quote]

the standard response I see. Cuz DB was made to be a jumpsniping game?

[ProfPlump]

[quote=“Black;152433”][quote=“Mercy;152365”]
The fact of the matter is that Smooth said it’s annoying and unexpected and that was the sole reason for the nerf according to him. “Annoying to play against” and “You don’t see it coming and can’t defend yourself” can be applied to a hundred other things in Dirty Bomb that require far less effort, and are certainly used or seen more often than someone having spent the time to acquire the reflexes to accurately nail you while fucking airborne.
As someone who plays Vassili and isn’t talking out of their ass just to be obstinate, I see this argument split between people who have invested time in playing him and people who haven’t. [/quote]
Best explanation yet.

I think what’s really ticking people off about this update is that the devs have yet to provide any real or non-anecdotal justification as to why it was added.
As far as I’m concerned it was removed because Smooth got butthurt when a Vassili jump shotted him.

Even when I didn’t play Vassili I had no problem with jump shotting as it was rare and when it happened I praised the player for his nice shot because I knew it takes some skill.[/quote]

The most annoying thing is that, in most cases, Nader, Fletcher and Fragger can all jump up over impassable walls (such as gates on Trainyard) and essentially do the exact same thing that Vassili did, yet they saw ZERO nerfs to their explosive throwing/launching accuracy while in mid-air. Clearly they are just as unpredictable and frustrating (possibly more so as they can get multikills on their first jump, so they can do even MORE damage before the enemy can react - whereas Vassili can only get 1 kill per jump unless he gets really lucky and gets a collatoral, which is VERY hard to do if you are shooting from an elevated angle).

[ProfPlump]

[quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

And that is why you should never become a game developer - this game is centred around extreme mobility and jump sniping was a huge part of that (as was jumping accuracy for everything else too - it’s just that bolt actions got hit far harder by the nerf than the other guns). It was great to finally have a competitive game that had these movement mechanics in the game, since most other competitive shooters go for more of a standard, realistic approach to gunplay.

[Black2]

[quote=“ProfPlump;152436”][quote=“Black;152433”][quote=“Mercy;152365”]
The fact of the matter is that Smooth said it’s annoying and unexpected and that was the sole reason for the nerf according to him. “Annoying to play against” and “You don’t see it coming and can’t defend yourself” can be applied to a hundred other things in Dirty Bomb that require far less effort, and are certainly used or seen more often than someone having spent the time to acquire the reflexes to accurately nail you while fucking airborne.
As someone who plays Vassili and isn’t talking out of their ass just to be obstinate, I see this argument split between people who have invested time in playing him and people who haven’t. [/quote]
Best explanation yet.

I think what’s really ticking people off about this update is that the devs have yet to provide any real or non-anecdotal justification as to why it was added.
As far as I’m concerned it was removed because Smooth got butthurt when a Vassili jump shotted him.

Even when I didn’t play Vassili I had no problem with jump shotting as it was rare and when it happened I praised the player for his nice shot because I knew it takes some skill.[/quote]

The most annoying thing is that, in most cases, Nader, Fletcher and Fragger can all jump up over impassable walls (such as gates on Trainyard) and essentially do the exact same thing that Vassili did, yet they saw ZERO nerfs to their explosive throwing/launching accuracy while in mid-air. Clearly they are just as unpredictable and frustrating (possibly more so as they can get multikills on their first jump, so they can do even MORE damage before the enemy can react - whereas Vassili can only get 1 kill per jump unless he gets really lucky and gets a collatoral, which is VERY hard to do if you are shooting from an elevated angle).[/quote]

Haha. Meanwhile we got a Nader who can spam nade the objective from spawn yet Vassili jumpshoting is a annoying and has no counter?

Pbbbht.
https://youtu.be/_15irL4aEEo?t=1m38s

[Jesus2]

@pinkOrchid

[quote=“ProfPlump;152437”][quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

And that is why you should never become a game developer - this game is centred around extreme mobility and jump sniping was a huge part of that (as was jumping accuracy for everything else too - it’s just that bolt actions got hit far harder by the nerf than the other guns). It was great to finally have a competitive game that had these movement mechanics in the game, since most other competitive shooters go for more of a standard, realistic approach to gunplay.[/quote]

Not a jumpsniping but still jumpshooting game, and right now all other merc with their bullet spammy gun can still jumpshot while Vassili cant. Every other merc can hipfire and jumpshoot and he can do neither of those thing. And the kind of 120° cone he is speaking about is a typical mechanic of CSGO. So yeah if he doesnt want people jumpshotting thats the only advice i can give him.

Do you think DB was supposed to be another boring strafe crouch only game ?
Cause thats not what made it stand out of the other games. And taking such a direction would be killing the game given the competitor for those kind of game on the market already

[banteringTurnip]

I think its okay jump sniping is an unfair advantage.

[The_N00Ba]

[left] So one of the main points right now is that it is unfair for other mercs who can spam bullets to be able to jump shoot if Vassili can not. Why? The spammers have to actually hit with every single bullet. Vassili still only needs 1-2 shots. In long range combat, Vassili seems to have the advantage because of his damage. Yes the spammers have mobility because they can hip fire but they still have to land every single shot they make compared to Vassili’s 1-2. In medium range combat, the spammers begin to gain an advantage because it becomes easier to land every shot but it also becomes harder to dodge Vassili’s 1-2 shots. Even at short range Vassili is quite dangerous with his rifle if the Vassili Player knows you are there. I have found it becomes a matter of which hits faster the spammers large number of shots or Vassili’s 1-2 shots.

Basically I am seeing skill in firepower versus skill in mobility.  With jump sniping, it becomes skill in firepower and mobility versus skill in mobility.  To me, this type of match up greatly unbalances the game.  In my experience playing games, any character with both massive damage and mobility is usually overpowered and breaks the game.  And yes I do agree there is still other mercs like that in the  game.  

I have noticed the jumping mechanics being “abused” in game with similar tactics such as those used with Vassili.  The jumping mechanics themselves may very well be looked at in the future.  I of course do not represent Splash Damage or Nexon America on this matter.  I was merely stating my observation of a possible scenario if the jumping mechanics keep being “abused”.  I am using quotes for abused because I feel such tactics have more of a negative impact on game play.  So I use a negative description.  

Make no mistake though I also value the skill needed for such tactics.  I love how people utilize the jumping mechanics of the game to do some cool things.  I utilize them myself, which usual end up with me being beaten to a pulp, and then my corpse being beaten again afterwards.  

I have to ask though.  What is the point of those tactics if they have a negative impact on game play?  Isn't the point of a game for everyone to have fun?[/left]

[PurpleHippo]

First they remove instagibs, Then they increase aimpunch to nerf snipers a bit more (im sorry what?), Then they added rng bullshit to jumping accuracy (ehm…We have this awesome movement system and now we get penalised for using it).

NOW i see people argue it was a deserved nerf because it was frustrating to play against…

So let me just summon this up.

• Getting instagibbed by a noob with shotgun coming around the corner is not frustrating?
• Playing Aura, Sparks or Kira and getting oneshot by Nader nades or sticky bombs is not frustrating?
• Getting instagibbed by a fragger nade is not frustrating?
• Getting instagibbed by a proxymine because the audio bugged out (which happens all the time) is not frustrating?
• Getting instagibbed by an airstrike because the splash radius is so stupid large is not frustrating?
• Getting instagibbed by a generator 5m away from you is not frustrating?

BUT getting killed by a sniper who killed you while jumping is?

[blonk]

And that is why you should never become a game developer - this game is centred around extreme mobility and jump sniping was a huge part of that

No, it wasn’t. This has been blown so much out of proportion, it’s beyond rediculous. In the first 200 odd hours of DB I’d played prior to this change, I saw ONE Vasilly even attempt a jumpsnipe, and that’s only because I was jumping around to harass him in the first place. The idea that jump sniping was an integral part of any player’s gameplay is stupid and the arguments presented just seem like the ramblings of bitter children who’ve had their toys taken away. At least earlier in the thread and in some of the others, people talked about other ideas rather than RNG, but now it’s just the TERRIBLE INJUSTICE AGAINST THE SNIPERS

• Getting instagibbed by a noob with shotgun coming around the corner is not frustrating?

Don’t see that many noobs doing that, chances are you have to be quite the hot shot to do it reliably

• Playing Aura, Sparks or Kira and getting oneshot by Nader nades or sticky bombs is not frustrating?

I’ll take that for being able to run around like a loony for at least two of those three mercs

• Getting instagibbed by a fragger nade is not frustrating?

NOT WHEN I’M DOING IT

• Getting instagibbed by a proxymine because the audio bugged out (which happens all
  the time) is not frustrating?

For a second, then I berate myself for not being more aware of my surroundings, most of the time they are in predictable, visible locations

• Getting instagibbed by an airstrike because the splash radius is so stupid large is not frustrating?

lol

• Getting instagibbed by a generator 5m away from you is not frustrating?

generator op nerfnow

BUT getting killed by a sniper who killed you while jumping is?

According to the devs, yeah.

[CLS]

Dude stop it I almost spilled my wine when i read that.
You want the top five skill demanding merc?
1.Sparks
2.Fletcher
3.Phantom
4.Vassili
5.Rhino cause very situational you just have to learn where you can go and where you shouldnt.
Litterally anyone can play fragger Skyhammer Proxy Aura Stoker Phoenix, non of these are especially demanding in any sort of skill compared to those five. With Vassili you have to do one shot one dead cause if you dont kill your ennemies on the first shot chances are they will just heal and flank your ass. Even if you kill them actually you better always be on the move, and choosing unpredictable spots isnt easy especially that we can only corner peek.

Well yeah, and anyone can play Vassili as well, what’s your point. It takes time to master any class, there is a world between a good “X” merc & a great one, regardless of the merc. I agree Vassili has it bad when it comes to be efficient as you need consistency to be considered good, but it doesn’t mean he is harder, it just means he has been outclassed by other mercs and his now pretty much useless.

The Vassili didnt become a lot harder, you dont understand shit. Its the contrary it has become too easy as now all we can do with him is stay far away from any ennemies and pops head and by corner peeking. Not only the gameplay lost a challenging part that maked the vassili comes a bit closer and therefor makes them more vulnerable, but it also lost a BIG part of the fun of playing him. There is no fun in sitting and popping head all the game.

I don’t understand how removing an ability to someone, regardless of how hard it is to use, makes him easier to play with. Jump-sniping or not, he was still able to stay far away and corner peek as you say, which, if I may recall you, is already what 99% of what Vassili players are doing.

You just dont sound like someone who doesnt like to play agaisnt good Vassilis so any nerf will be welcomed with you. If there was an actual valid reason for the nerf it wouldnt make such a fuzz. This nerf was purely arbitrary and no one still have no idea of why it was implemented

And you seem to be oblivious to what people having a different opinion than yours have to say. I said the nerf was deserved but should have been implemented differently: Huge spread while jumping, max accuracy @ max height, you should really consider paying attention to what people are saying, whether they agree with you or not. Works well in life too, you know.

[teflonlove]

The most annoying thing is that, in most cases, Nader, Fletcher and Fragger can all jump up over impassable walls (such as gates on Trainyard) and essentially do the exact same thing that Vassili did, yet they saw ZERO nerfs to their explosive throwing/launching accuracy while in mid-air.

Vasili can instantly jump and shoot and can continue do so until he runs out of bullets. And even that can be prevented by supplying him with ammo.

Mercs with nades have a delay between launching the nade and hitting the enemy, so one can avoid it to a limited extend. Also, there is a fairly small amount of nades they can throw before the cool down strikes. And fragger even has to cook them for a couple of seconds before they actually explode.

So jump throwing nade-mercs are a easier to predict and react on than a jump sniping Vasili and hence less frustrating.

[blonk]

Since its about professionalism, Barroman should have corrected him just for that. Its better to get caught in confusion about what you said and admit you didnt think much when you said than approuving the bullshit and let everyone thinks the dev team is stupid.

People have been saying the dev team is stupid prior to any kind of goof on a stream, they seem to have their minds set on that matter. I have no doubt that if shoe had said they can hipfire, and Barroman said “uhh no”, we’d be having nearly exactly the same discussion, except it would be how they don’t even agree on game mechanics, rather than get the detail wrong.

[MTLMortis]

I have to ask though. What is the point of those tactics if they have a negative impact on game play? Isn’t the point of a game for everyone to have fun?[/left]

Well yes and no. They are wanting to make a balanced competitive ranked esports game. The fun is ancillary to that. I think they’re going about it backwards but that’s just me. All the current esports games aren’t designed to be an esport, that comes out by itself afterwards. The communities and clans do it on their own. There is actually no need to make that a priority for development, if the game is good, it will evolve on it’s own.

[Matuno1]

[quote=“Jesus;152444”]@pinkOrchid

[quote=“ProfPlump;152437”][quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

And that is why you should never become a game developer - this game is centred around extreme mobility and jump sniping was a huge part of that (as was jumping accuracy for everything else too - it’s just that bolt actions got hit far harder by the nerf than the other guns). It was great to finally have a competitive game that had these movement mechanics in the game, since most other competitive shooters go for more of a standard, realistic approach to gunplay.[/quote]

Not a jumpsniping but still jumpshooting game, and right now all other merc with their bullet spammy gun can still jumpshot while Vassili cant. Every other merc can hipfire and jumpshoot and he can do neither of those thing. And the kind of 120° cone he is speaking about is a typical mechanic of CSGO. So yeah if he doesnt want people jumpshotting thats the only advice i can give him.

Do you think DB was supposed to be another boring strafe crouch only game ?
Cause thats not what made it stand out of the other games. And taking such a direction would be killing the game given the competitor for those kind of game on the market already
[/quote]

This, I think. I’m not a fan of Counter-Strike in any way. I’m actually a huge fan of this game’s mobility factor, the fact that you can move around and still shoot accurately, and that firefights are won on persistent aim and not a one-shot wonder.

I respect players that do well with Vassili at any range, and don’t camp around in the same spot. A Vassili that gains momentum and flies past a doorway, knocking someone in the head in that small window, is a god. I love those plays.

Though those plays are cool, it’s not so cool when a Vassili can just jump up to gate height on Trainyard and instantly knock you out, or just jumpsnipe on Underground’s staircase, hiding behind the outer wall. That’s very one-sided and unrewarding play.

[Amerika]

[quote=“Matuno;152646”][quote=“Jesus;152444”]@pinkOrchid

[quote=“ProfPlump;152437”][quote=“Matuno;152423”]I’m genuinely surprised that people are openly supporting jump-sniping.
Heck, if it were up to me, even being able to fire in mid-air should throw accuracy off to a 120-degree cone because fuck you.[/quote]

And that is why you should never become a game developer - this game is centred around extreme mobility and jump sniping was a huge part of that (as was jumping accuracy for everything else too - it’s just that bolt actions got hit far harder by the nerf than the other guns). It was great to finally have a competitive game that had these movement mechanics in the game, since most other competitive shooters go for more of a standard, realistic approach to gunplay.[/quote]

Not a jumpsniping but still jumpshooting game, and right now all other merc with their bullet spammy gun can still jumpshot while Vassili cant. Every other merc can hipfire and jumpshoot and he can do neither of those thing. And the kind of 120° cone he is speaking about is a typical mechanic of CSGO. So yeah if he doesnt want people jumpshotting thats the only advice i can give him.

Do you think DB was supposed to be another boring strafe crouch only game ?
Cause thats not what made it stand out of the other games. And taking such a direction would be killing the game given the competitor for those kind of game on the market already
[/quote]

This, I think. I’m not a fan of Counter-Strike in any way. I’m actually a huge fan of this game’s mobility factor, the fact that you can move around and still shoot accurately, and that firefights are won on persistent aim and not a one-shot wonder.

I respect players that do well with Vassili at any range, and don’t camp around in the same spot. A Vassili that gains momentum and flies past a doorway, knocking someone in the head in that small window, is a god. I love those plays.

Though those plays are cool, it’s not so cool when a Vassili can just jump up to gate height on Trainyard and instantly knock you out, or just jumpsnipe on Underground’s staircase, hiding behind the outer wall. That’s very one-sided and unrewarding play.[/quote]

Yet there are ways to defeat that. You simply can’t win in a straight up fight but you can win using other methods. Methods I’ve talked about previously that people either forget after reading or never knew/thought of. Jump sniping, in part, became something that was used a lot because it was too easy to kill a Vassili that simply sat there. So people learned the best areas to do it which allowed them to not only take a few shots from relative safety but also allowed them different angles to remain mobile. So that somebody with a Stark/M4 can’t just line up a shot on where you have to peek and take your head off.

To beat somebody who is jumping you don’t run at them straight up. You either use explosive classes, which you’ll have in any organized match, or simple flanking. Vassili’s who have to jump to shoot usually can’t see their flanks where peeking players can (which is why good ones will rotate what they do). Which is why almost every Vassili player who is any good constantly moves and pushes and is rather proficient with the recently nerfed machine pistols.

It’s only frustrating to play against if you try to play against a Vassili player who is jumping the exact same way as you do against one that is peeking. The whole reason for jumping is to defeat the players who are sitting still and lining up shots for the peeking Vas. Learning to fight against it is similar to learning to not keep putting your head out on corners where Sparks is constantly spamming revivr shots and getting headshot or learning to not chase Fletcher’s or at least not chase them in a conventional manner. You have to actually think and not just run right at them. That’s why I am so passionate about this change and why I want to see it reverted. A rather huge dynamic to the game is no longer there for me to use and to come up with solutions to beat.