Devs ignoring the community on some issues (specifically jump-sniping nerfs)

(Amerika) #221

I know there have been other comments made by the devs but I quoted verbatim what was said on the February 15th stream.

Starts at 1:00:39 during the February 15th DB stream.

Wafflemonster - “Any plans on removing jump spread on Vassili”

Smooth’s response - “No we’re not. umm. Jump sniping is…I appreciate it…it’s a skill. But it’s something that is very frustrating to be on the other end of. Because…if especially the Vassili is behind a wall or something and jumping out and peeking for 10ms and shooting you in the face you cannot see it coming. You can’t fight back against it either. So, no. If Vassili needs some loving, as some mercs do, uh we’ll look at other ways of doing that.”

This comment came after all kinds of talk about figuring out how to balance the game based on a huge amount of statistical data and logic. Then we get this hyperbolic explanation to justify the change with the 10ms comment. And for those who don’t know, 10ms isn’t even a frame of animation for most people depending on what FPS your run in DB. If you ran 60fps it would be 16.67ms per frame. It takes quite a bit longer to jump, acquire a target and fire even if you have the fastest reflexes in the world.

There was no discussion of it being changed because casual players were vocal for the change. There was no discussion of it being changed because the competitive players were vocal and wanted it changed. There was no talk about how tons of players did it and it was low skill cap/too easy. In fact, the reverse was stated. There was no logic chain that identified that pros and cons of using it. For example, if you jump snipe from a spot you are every easy to flank since you can’t see for very long. Which is why you constantly have to move positions and change angles (and why jump sniping was so important…some maps don’t give you good angles in many areas).

Instead he simply said it was too frustrating to fight against. Which is only true if you are trying to stand there and shoot the Vas player like you would if they were peeking only (similar to what was seen in my video with me doing it). If you stand still trying to catch them on their jump you’re going to get hit. That’s the wrong way to play against a Vas player. Flanking them or blowing them up with explosives is super easy because they can’t see it coming. Any good nader, fragger or fletcher could completely offset me when I did it and that’s how I beat the ones I faced. And in a lot of areas it’s easy to flank regardless of class used.

So in short no statistics were used to justify the nerf, very little community outcry for this mechanic to change, no logic chain that used pros and cons of actual usage beyond “it’s frustrating”, a healthy dosage of hyperbole used as justification, apparently a lack of knowledge helped lead the vision behind the change in understanding how to defeat a player doing it. Oh, and the kicker, SD completely ignoring all the data and feedback from the last time they tried to make jump shooting RNG. A change they immediately rolled back because of how weak it made Vassili. And that was back when he has instagib headshots and a better machine pistol.

I don’t think this change had a lot more than “I don’t like it” going into it from SD’s side based on the evidence I’ve seen and the comments on streams, Reddit and Discord.

(Merci1ess) #222

[quote=“Amerika;152246”]I know there have been other comments made by the devs but I quoted verbatim what was said on the February 15th stream.

Starts at 1:00:39 during the February 15th DB stream.

Wafflemonster - “Any plans on removing jump spread on Vassili”

Smooth’s response - “No we’re not. umm. Jump sniping is…I appreciate it…it’s a skill. But it’s something that is very frustrating to be on the other end of. Because…if especially the Vassili is behind a wall or something and jumping out and peeking for 10ms and shooting you in the face you cannot see it coming. You can’t fight back against it either. So, no. If Vassili needs some loving, as some mercs do, uh we’ll look at other ways of doing that.”

This comment came after all kinds of talk about figuring out how to balance the game based on a huge amount of statistical data and logic. Then we get this hyperbolic explanation to justify the change with the 10ms comment. And for those who don’t know, 10ms isn’t even a frame of animation for most people depending on what FPS your run in DB. If you ran 60fps it would be 16.67ms per frame. It takes quite a bit longer to jump, acquire a target and fire even if you have the fastest reflexes in the world.

There was no discussion of it being changed because casual players were vocal for the change. There was no discussion of it being changed because the competitive players were vocal and wanted it changed. There was no talk about how tons of players did it and it was low skill cap/too easy. In fact, the reverse was stated. There was no logic chain that identified that pros and cons of using it. For example, if you jump snipe from a spot you are every easy to flank since you can’t see for very long. Which is why you constantly have to move positions and change angles (and why jump sniping was so important…some maps don’t give you good angles in many areas).

Instead he simply said it was too frustrating to fight against. Which is only true if you are trying to stand there and shoot the Vas player like you would if they were peeking only (similar to what was seen in my video with me doing it). If you stand still trying to catch them on their jump you’re going to get hit. That’s the wrong way to play against a Vas player. Flanking them or blowing them up with explosives is super easy because they can’t see it coming. Any good nader, fragger or fletcher could completely offset me when I did it and that’s how I beat the ones I faced. And in a lot of areas it’s easy to flank regardless of class used.

So in short no statistics were used to justify the nerf, very little community outcry for this mechanic to change, no logic chain that used pros and cons of actual usage beyond “it’s frustrating”, a healthy dosage of hyperbole used as justification, apparently a lack of knowledge helped lead the vision behind the change in understanding how to defeat a player doing it. Oh, and the kicker, SD completely ignoring all the data and feedback from the last time they tried to make jump shooting RNG. A change they immediately rolled back because of how weak it made Vassili. And that was back when he has instagib headshots and a better machine pistol.

I don’t think this change had a lot more than “I don’t like it” going into it from SD’s side based on the evidence I’ve seen and the comments on streams, Reddit and Discord.[/quote]

He appreciated it.

I think Smooth is one of the devs that play this game quite abit and actually has a certain amount of know how in the game which leads me to believe that when he got killed by one of them jump sniping Vassilis he would blow up in rage. You can see he gets frustrated when he dies but, of course, hides it quite well since he’s in front of an audience but when he’s alone, something tells me alot of tissues are used.

(blonk) #223

[quote=“Merciless;152161”][quote=“blonk;152137”]
Shoe’s primary role isn’t development, in fact he contributes nothing to the build of the game. He’s the community manager, not a fucking encyclopedia.[/quote]

That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. So shoe’s primary role isn’t development. Because it takes alot of knowledge and a game developer to know that snipers cannot hip fire in Dirty Bomb lol.

If it makes you feel better, Barroman, a developer, was beside him and agreed with Shoe when the question was asked.
[/quote]

Didn’t you say you had over 400,000 hours playing with the Vasilly? Not everyone is the same level, I mean have you actually watched shoe playing dirty bomb? These guys are human beings, how can you expect them to know exactly the same technicals as you, someone who’s clearly wrapped up in this issue, at your beck and call?

Oh I missed this bit:

[quote=“Amerika;152246”]So in short no statistics were used to justify the nerf, very little community outcry for this mechanic to change, no logic chain that used pros and cons of actual usage beyond “it’s frustrating”, a healthy dosage of hyperbole used as justification, apparently a lack of knowledge helped lead the vision behind the change in understanding how to defeat a player doing it. Oh, and the kicker, SD completely ignoring all the data and feedback from the last time they tried to make jump shooting RNG. A change they immediately rolled back because of how weak it made Vassili. And that was back when he has instagib headshots and a better machine pistol.

I don’t think this change had a lot more than “I don’t like it” going into it from SD’s side based on the evidence I’ve seen and the comments on streams, Reddit and Discord.[/quote]

How can you possibly know that just by quote mining? As cool a guy Smooth is I doubt he can just wake up one morning, jump into EU 5, get jump snipe’d and decide he’s going to rustle probably the biggest bunch of jimmies the land has ever known. He’s obviously referring to the interests of the community when he says that it’s frustrating to be on the end of, not his own particular variety of FPS logic that he wants to enjoy.

(edited to remove something that could be construed as being nastay)

(opicr0n) #224

@Amerika is on a mission making this nerf out to be caused only by one person. I am not buying it and frankly I expect more from an moderator.

(Merci1ess) #225

[quote=“blonk;152288”][quote=“Merciless;152161”][quote=“blonk;152137”]
Shoe’s primary role isn’t development, in fact he contributes nothing to the build of the game. He’s the community manager, not a fucking encyclopedia.[/quote]

That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. So shoe’s primary role isn’t development. Because it takes alot of knowledge and a game developer to know that snipers cannot hip fire in Dirty Bomb lol.

If it makes you feel better, Barroman, a developer, was beside him and agreed with Shoe when the question was asked.
[/quote]

Didn’t you say you had over 400,000 hours playing with the Vasilly? Not everyone is the same level, I mean have you actually watched shoe playing dirty bomb? These guys are human beings, how can you expect them to know exactly the same technicals as you, someone who’s clearly wrapped up in this issue, at your beck and call?[/quote]

We’re talking about knowing a very simple thing in a game here. We’re talking about the fact that Vassili cannot hipfire with his primary weapon. We’re not talking about something that you learn from hours and hours of experience here. If you cannot figure out that Vas can’t hipfire with his sniper after 5-10 minutes of playing with him you’re seriously damaged lol.

Besides… if you don’t know if he can or cannot hipfire than you stfu? Usually? Or ask someone who might know? Which he did by asking Barroman who answered the exact same thing. Yes, you can hipfire. I mean… I’m sorry but it is what it is. Those people are your developers working on your precious game.

Here, have a laugh. The question is asked at 1:08:27.

Well he has a reason. I mean nerfing something because it’s annoying and frustrating to play against is never really a valid reason even though it wasn’t just one person’s will. You need to have a good reason as to why he deserved that.

Here, lemme take your mercenary and nerf him… Why? I don’t know I just find him quite annoying. I don’t like it. You’d just take it and continue on your merry day like nothing happened or would you like to have a little more information other than these fuck ass reasons I gave you?

(opicr0n) #226

[quote=“Merciless;152302”]Well he has a reason. I mean nerfing something because it’s annoying and frustrating to play against is never really a valid reason even though it wasn’t just one person’s will. You need to have a good reason as to why he deserved that.

Here, lemme take your mercenary and nerf him… Why? I don’t know I just find him quite annoying. I don’t like it. You’d just take it and continue on your merry day like nothing happened or would you like to have a little more information other than these fuck ass reasons I gave you?[/quote]

This is exactly why I do not believe that the reasons @Amerika is spamming are true. Yes the quotes are not doing the nerf any good, but I fail to believe that one person caused this. There could be many more valid reasons underneath. It could very well be based on game stats.

Kudos for @Amerika for trying to bring out his views, but this is just misplaced.

(CLS) #227

Well, if you consider people being you and your little girlfriend, it’s very much alright, I mean, you’re the one saying “You think it’s just as hard to use a shotgun or minigun or grenade launcher or even SMGs as it is to snipe?”, which might be the most stupidest thing I have read so far.

[quote=“Merciless;152164”]https://youtu.be/R3ZAEC_dJ2I
This was too much fun. Clearly we is MLG no-scope pros. All this time we were just playing Vassili so wrong. :trollface: Totally kicked your ass.
[/quote]

Aren’t you guys the cutest couple around here, posting memes, making videos together mesuring your Vassili e-penises for each other. That’s adorable :slight_smile:

Seriously though, you both sound like a couple of teenage girls angry at the developpers for nerfing their favourite merc. Vassili is one of the most easiest merc to play with, it has just gotten a little harder, which is still WAY easier than to master sparks or fletcher, or pretty much any other class for that matter.

(blonk) #228

[quote=“Merciless;152302”]
We’re talking about knowing a very simple thing in a game here. We’re talking about the fact that Vassili cannot hipfire with his primary weapon. We’re not talking about something that you learn from hours and hours of experience here. If you cannot figure out that Vas can’t hipfire with his sniper after 5-10 minutes of playing with him you’re seriously damaged lol.

Besides… if you don’t know if he can or cannot hipfire than you stfu? Usually? Or ask someone who might know? Which he did by asking Barroman who answered the exact same thing. Yes, you can hipfire. I mean… I’m sorry but it is what it is.[/quote]

Don’t want to seem like I’m trying to make excuses for the guys, but I think you need to cut them some slack. I’d suggest trying to take a step back and see if you get any different perspective on things rather than trying to pick holes for what seems to be no real reason at all beyond trying to suggest they are incompetent, which is just nasty and ill spirited. I know I’ve heard shoe say some odd things about the game on a stream before, but hey, he’s working on the spot and they likely need to present a unified front on matters discussed.

steve_ballmer_plays_dirty.mp4

(Sinee) #229

Why thank you! We’re cute as fuck. My Vassili e-peen is bigger than his though. :*

Not really going to bother with the rest since I’m an adult, I’m bored of this topic and Amerika has been more than eloquent enough. “Little girlfriend” blehblahbleeblaabloo, at least he’s got one. OHHHHHH. I’m just kidding. You men fight it out till you feel better.

(Jostabeere) #230

Jump-nerf-remove-supporters sure make their arguments better by posting gifs with “You’re an idiot” in them.

(Hallaw) #231

I have a dream, that one day, a thread will arise containing constructive cricism instead of flamewars. That being said, I fail to really see why this is a big problem and the lock-on “fix” for fletcher a couple of months ago wasn’t. (if you are wondering, the standard detonation time for sticky bombs got nerfed to the point where lock on would reset it to the pre-nerf value, and it got mentioned as a fix for the perk which was previously broken, fletcher waifu for laifu).

(Amerika) #232

He is the game designer and has a big say in gameplay along with Exedore and a few others. I am not on a mission. I am simply posting facts of the situation and trying to get to the bottom of what I perceive to be a bad decision by using actual data and known facts from a community perspective.

I don’t know why you feel the need to attempt to invalidate my argument by trivializing it as a vendetta against one person. We all know full well that multiple people had to green light the decision. I just want to know why as it doesn’t make any sense at all given the information we have been given. I, like others, love this game and I don’t want to see certain aspects of it changed to be more in-line with most every other game out there.

If you don’t speak up then nothing changes.

[quote=“blonk;152288”]How can you possibly know that just by quote mining? As cool a guy Smooth is I doubt he can just wake up one morning, jump into EU 5, get jump snipe’d and decide he’s going to rustle probably the biggest bunch of jimmies the land has ever known. He’s obviously referring to the interests of the community when he says that it’s frustrating to be on the end of, not his own particular variety of FPS logic that he wants to enjoy.

(edited to remove something that could be construed as being nastay)
[/quote]

I don’t feel like I was hasty with my explanations to lead to my conclusion. Never has any statistics or community outcry been cited as the basis for the nerf that I’ve seen across a few different communication mediums. The change went in without any kind of warning as well. Changing a 2+ year old gameplay mechanic that wasn’t perceived as OP and was also determined to be necessary to Vassili’s success, all without even letting the community know ahead of time, was kind of a big bomb to drop without a lot of statistical and logical evidence. Also, this change went in once before and a mountain of negative feedback was given. So much that it was reverted I believe within two weeks with the next patch with the reason for it being reverted as Vassili being too weak due to the change. Given that information it’s hard to conclude anything else considering his response included nothing but what appeared to be a personal reflection on the issue.

I’m all ears for a more logical explanation by SD.

(Amerika) #233

Also, for the record, I think Smooth is actually a pretty cool guy. As are most of the people I’ve spoken with or simply seen on streams or in Discord that are attached to SD. I’d buy them all beers and smile with them and congratulate them on making what I feel is a great game that I’ve spent hundreds of hours playing.

If I was personal friends with all of them I’d still make the exact same arguments though regardless of relational status. I work in an environment where we constantly go back and forth on design decisions and each person is routinely challenged by others if what we are proposing doesn’t make logical sense. It has nothing to do with flaming or getting upset or childish responses. There is no anger involved. We simply explain ourselves as best as possible, look at other perspectives and then possibly refactor or drop what was proposed based on feedback and new information that might not have been available. Challenging somebody doesn’t mean you dislike them.

Some of you might be reading my posts with the tone of somebody who is angry. I am not angry. Hell, I don’t even play Vassili very often. But I do not approve of what appears to be personal and arbitrary changes to something I feel was a unique part of a game I enjoy without any kind of real explanation. That would never ever fly where I come from. If they have data or information or a perspective that proves me wrong then I might still disagree with the change personally but I could at least accept it if the game was made better for it overall. But sneaking it in with no warning and ignoring previous data gained (along with their own conclusion) combined with a hyperbolic response that included no reference to statistical data that was previously being mentioned quite often doesn’t sit well with me.

I am passionate and love this game and I want to see it be a good game for many types of players who have different playstyles. Homogenization and randomness isn’t something I want in Dirty Bomb. Yet that appears to be the driving force behind quite a few design decisions and I choose to make my voice heard in a what I hope is an intelligent manner and taken constructively instead of as “flaming”.

(Black) #234

Not true. This is the whole point of the thread.

There is no possible way you missed seeing all the threads on here, videos, streams, and comments explaining players dislike of this new jump shot change.

The community does NOT like the change. Sure there are those few people who agree with the change but you and I both know the majority is against it. So change it.

How can SD claim that beta is for feedback and change when simple things like this doesn’t get changed?

Now I understand one can argue the mechanics of the game and claim jump shooting with Vassili is OP which is completely fine, however the reality of it is that most players don’t agree with it and if SD wants to maximize it’s profits and players they would change it to where most players are satisfied.

(Amerika) #235

Just because something might not or probably won’t change, or ever even be properly explained, isn’t a good reason to not speak up. They changed their mind in the past due to an overwhelming amount of community feedback from a lot of sources. It might happen again if people are loud enough to be noticed. Just because they are ignoring it now doesn’t mean they will always ignore it.

(Sinee) #236

What feels so frustrating though, is the fact that not a lot of people play Vassili. They try him once or twice, then give up because they get rekt with him. They think it’s going to be easy, nab him because he, for some mysterious reason, is cheaper to buy than the rest, and then suck with him; that’s why so often I hear jokes about “0/10 snipers”. Based on your experience and skill, you’re either useful or useless with Vassili. People like instant gratification. They don’t like to work for things, and being useful as Vassili requires work.

Unfortunately that means the player pool of people against this decision or people who will speak out for him is usually very, very small. I have actually been astounded by the amount of people that agree this was an idiotic and pointless crippling nerf, but it’s just that bad that very few understand it. They cut off Vassili’s legs and rooted him to a two foot wide area of left to right strafing. It’s hard for me to imagine how someone could defend this beyond just being salty because they met a skilled Vassili once or twice.

The fact of the matter is that Smooth said it’s annoying and unexpected and that was the sole reason for the nerf according to him. “Annoying to play against” and “You don’t see it coming and can’t defend yourself” can be applied to a hundred other things in Dirty Bomb that require far less effort, and are certainly used or seen more often than someone having spent the time to acquire the reflexes to accurately nail you while fucking airborne.
As someone who plays Vassili and isn’t talking out of their ass just to be obstinate, I see this argument split between people who have invested time in playing him and people who haven’t. Some shit said in this thread I can’t even bother to debate with… I think skill ceiling differences between mercs/weapons should be obvious if you play Dirty Bomb at all. I’m not going to waste my time.

I love Dirty Bomb too, and it’s just frustrating seeing my favorite game being dumbed down. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a real fucking reason as to why this was implemented instead of some QQ nonsense. This decision just reflects a bigger problem with the trajectory of this game. Eventually everyone’s just going to be running around with shotguns and that’s not a game I want to play.

(MTLMortis) #237

Specifically rounding a corner and getting a facefull of Aura Hollandaise sauce to the face…

(Sinee) #238

Specifically rounding a corner and getting a facefull of Aura Hollandaise sauce to the face…

[/quote]
Boom, there you go. :tongue:

(Jesus) #239

[quote=“CLS;152312”][quote=“Merciless;152114”]

LOL. You’re not hurting anyone’s feelings by saying that. You’re making people laugh.


[/quote]

Well, if you consider people being you and your little girlfriend, it’s very much alright, I mean, you’re the one saying “You think it’s just as hard to use a shotgun or minigun or grenade launcher or even SMGs as it is to snipe?”, which might be the most stupidest thing I have read so far.

[quote=“Merciless;152164”]https://youtu.be/R3ZAEC_dJ2I
This was too much fun. Clearly we is MLG no-scope pros. All this time we were just playing Vassili so wrong. :trollface: Totally kicked your ass.
[/quote]

Aren’t you guys the cutest couple around here, posting memes, making videos together mesuring your Vassili e-penises for each other. That’s adorable :slight_smile:

Seriously though, you both sound like a couple of teenage girls angry at the developpers for nerfing their favourite merc. Vassili is one of the most easiest merc to play with, it has just gotten a little harder, which is still WAY easier than to master sparks or fletcher, or pretty much any other class for that matter.[/quote]

Dude stop it I almost spilled my wine when i read that.
You want the top five skill demanding merc?
1.Sparks
2.Fletcher
3.Phantom
4.Vassili
5.Rhino cause very situational you just have to learn where you can go and where you shouldnt.
Litterally anyone can play fragger Skyhammer Proxy Aura Stoker Phoenix, non of these are especially demanding in any sort of skill compared to those five. With Vassili you have to do one shot one dead cause if you dont kill your ennemies on the first shot chances are they will just heal and flank your ass. Even if you kill them actually you better always be on the move, and choosing unpredictable spots isnt easy especially that we can only corner peek.

The Vassili didnt become a lot harder, you dont understand shit. Its the contrary it has become too easy as now all we can do with him is stay far away from any ennemies and pops head and by corner peeking. Not only the gameplay lost a challenging part that maked the vassili comes a bit closer and therefor makes them more vulnerable, but it also lost a BIG part of the fun of playing him. There is no fun in sitting and popping head all the game.

You just dont sound like someone who doesnt like to play agaisnt good Vassilis so any nerf will be welcomed with you. If there was an actual valid reason for the nerf it wouldnt make such a fuzz. This nerf was purely arbitrary and no one still have no idea of why it was implemented

(Jesus) #240

[quote=“blonk;152314”][quote=“Merciless;152302”]
We’re talking about knowing a very simple thing in a game here. We’re talking about the fact that Vassili cannot hipfire with his primary weapon. We’re not talking about something that you learn from hours and hours of experience here. If you cannot figure out that Vas can’t hipfire with his sniper after 5-10 minutes of playing with him you’re seriously damaged lol.

Besides… if you don’t know if he can or cannot hipfire than you stfu? Usually? Or ask someone who might know? Which he did by asking Barroman who answered the exact same thing. Yes, you can hipfire. I mean… I’m sorry but it is what it is.[/quote]

Don’t want to seem like I’m trying to make excuses for the guys, but I think you need to cut them some slack. I’d suggest trying to take a step back and see if you get any different perspective on things rather than trying to pick holes for what seems to be no real reason at all beyond trying to suggest they are incompetent, which is just nasty and ill spirited. I know I’ve heard shoe say some odd things about the game on a stream before, but hey, he’s working on the spot and they likely need to present a unified front on matters discussed.

steve_ballmer_plays_dirty.mp4[/quote]

Because fuck personal opinions and reality. If someone says a bullshit, which can happen to everyone specially in situation like streaming, then you correct them. If someone asks is the sky red and the first one says yes, the other one have to go for yes too ?