Devs ignoring the community on some issues (specifically jump-sniping nerfs)


(ProfPlump) #181

[quote=“Jesus;151435”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;151407”]I gotta admit that is one flaw I think Splash has, they rather do things they prefer than listen to what the competitive community wants.

Perfect example, PHANTOM.

opens can of worms

[/quote]

yeah i completely lost my mind when i read on the round up. Phantom will not be buffed cause he is annoying to play agaisnt[/quote]

Pretty much. People are just too stupid to realise that they need to keep out of melee range while taking safe shots at him until either his shield gets broken or he breaks out his SMG and disables his own shield. The noobs just hold S, shoot at him while he’s running at them, and, as a result of them holding their primary and walking away from a target who has their melee weapon out and is sprinting, they get mashed up.


(Jesus) #182

[quote=“ProfPlump;151503”][quote=“Jesus;151435”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;151407”]I gotta admit that is one flaw I think Splash has, they rather do things they prefer than listen to what the competitive community wants.

Perfect example, PHANTOM.

opens can of worms

[/quote]

yeah i completely lost my mind when i read on the round up. Phantom will not be buffed cause he is annoying to play agaisnt[/quote]

Pretty much. People are just too stupid to realise that they need to keep out of melee range while taking safe shots at him until either his shield gets broken or he breaks out his SMG and disables his own shield. The noobs just hold S, shoot at him while he’s running at them, and, as a result of them holding their primary and walking away from a target who has their melee weapon out and is sprinting, they get mashed up.[/quote]

Phantom is nowhere near annoying id even say most of the time its a free kill
Personally when i see one coming at me i get my secondary and unload it on him most of the time this will break the shield and make he thinks i got no ammo anywhere so he gets melee i get primary he gets lead in the face


(ImSploosh) #183

@Jesus Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Payday 2. I was drawing a blank for the names of games, so I just brought up the last FPS that I played consistently. But, I’ve heard awful things about Payday 2. I’ve also heard Killing Floor 2 started to follow in its footsteps, but I think the developers didn’t go all the way through with their messed up plans or something. (This information is just based off of previous Steam reviews I read, months ago, so it may not be true anymore).

Fact of the matter is, when games take a turn for the worse, and stop listening to players, they may still profit, but they lose out on loyalty. Loyalty can make or break sequels or the future of certain games.


(Amerika) #184

but thats exactly what they did…[/quote]

Perfect example of taking something out of context - I followed this thought ;>[/quote]

Oh please…;

Here is your whole sentence.

They still changed something people liked.

They dont try to see if, they changed it like that out of the fucking blue without asking anyone. Devs dont do nothing they do changes no one wants out of the blue.

Are you really trying to argue that implementing RNG the gameplay doesnt reduce the potential of someone ? This is just plain stupid why would anyone argue thats its normal that bullet dont go where you are aiming. Yes some people dont feel it because of course if you jumpshot someone with an smg or a shotgun while sitting on their fucking head the guy is too close for it to have a difference but i could take some old videogameplay of the game and im quite sure 1/4 of the kill we would see with some merc wouldnt work anymore. Of course certain merc were less impacted than other and if you play those you wont feel the difference but for a merc like vassili its a freakin huge difference.

This change make no sense anyway, no one actually ever gave one valid reason to have RNG implemented in our gameplay. [/quote]

This change did not occur right away - they thought about it, made it and implemented, and now they will see what it does - and sadly “it’s useless now” or simply implying that something is derped somehow does not seem to be what they are looking for, and they will probably prefer to look at streams of people who actually try things differently or simply stats as to how it actually impact the game over reading posts oozing with hate.

Sadly this change is still fresh, and any complains looks like someone did not even try them for more than one match, which probably was a bad one - everyone has them. And I will be honest, I did not see anyone complaining ingame, I did not see any mayor change to how people play, because I will repeat it - I played today more than 6 matches with people jumping around successfully hitting me, and it’s only about today - so from my side these opinions seems somehow unreliable.

As I said I cannot agree with RNG impacting the game that much - I still see people jump shooting with great success, simply less of them <which is actually good, match full of jumping people is not funny at all in my opinion> - even Vassili can score jump hit, as they did when I was playing - simply because You can’t get used to something right away does not mean it’s worse. And again as I said before - either RNG hates me and whoever fights with me gets 100 to luck while jumping, or they use hacks. Or, just maybe… just a little bit maybe… they actually tried to somehow play with it? I dunno, I am but a Dirty Cheap medic without any actual medical license… :'c[/quote]

You do realize that this change happened once before and it was almost immediately taken out of the game due to severe issues with weakening Vassili, right? SD only put it in again because the main dev doesn’t like the mechanic and their desire to not have something in they do not like overrides the actual balance of the merc. Also, some of the most vocal and notable Vas players who squawked the loudest at the change are no longer around.

Basically, SD already knows exactly what this change will do to Vassili’s value and they don’t care. This is because Smooth/Exedore don’t like jump sniping. Smooth’s words on stream was that it was “annoying to play against”. That’s it. That was the sole reason for the change. Not for a more balanced game. Not for a more fun and varied playstyle for Vassili, and not because it was overpowered. It was just annoying for them because you had to approach somebody who could actually do it differently than the classic “peek” snipers.

His defensive and offensive options were drastically impacted with the change and all he got in exchange was 10hp to help with the limited shot options. Oh, and back during the last time they tried this change, he could still instagib headshot. So he’s even weaker now than the last time they tried this and determined he was too weak and rolled the changes back.

This change had nothing to do with balance or better gameplay and everything to do with the designers liking what they like. I can’t fault them for their preferences but they have to have better answers than “it’s annoying” if they are going to change something that has worked this way for a very long time and completely destroy his viability in anything competitive related.[/quote]

You know… as much as we don’t agree on points regarding Phantom, I always thought you were one to kiss the dev’s ass to be completely honest. I guess I was wrong. I think you’d go a little more ham if you weren’t a mod on the forums though…

But GOOD SHIT!

But yeah, completely agree and I don’t see how anyone could defend something like this unless you just hate snipers and don’t wanna be bothered by them. They need to revert this badly.
[/quote]

I have no idea how you ever thought I kissed the developers or anybodies ass for that matter considering my posting history lol.

I also only took this volunteer mod job because MM guaranteed that I could keep speaking as I do. I specifically asked about it as I am nobodies company man and my thoughts are my own. She not only was cool with that but it was exactly what she wanted. I’d post exactly the same mod or not. As is somewhat noted by my signature.


(opicr0n) #185

You need to grasp the concept of beta/in development. I will leave it at that :wink:


(Jesus) #186

[quote=“Opicron;151530”][quote=“Jesus;151280”]

“Im gonna make a game like this”
“Oh now that you paid some money cause you liked the game im gonna change it and make the game like that if you dont like it deal with it”
If thats their line of conduct no wonder brink was a monumental failure because this is just being scumbags to the people who makes your company lives and this is how your company dies.
[/quote]

You need to grasp the concept of beta/in development. I will leave it at that ;)[/quote]

Thats a too easy excuse to say fuckoff to the people who makes you live.
I know what a beta is, i know it needs money, and i know they wont be seeing anymore of mine as long as they dont get their shit together


(23OO23) #187

[quote=“ProfPlump;151502”]
No offence mate, but you really don’t seem to have enough experience to make informed decisions on these matters.
If you think that jumpsniping is only for close-range, you’re wrong.
If you think that Vassili is still viable just because you’ve seen videos of people pub-stomping with him, then that’s stupid, because you can pub stomp with ANY merc - what matters is his viability in competitive play.
If you think that what we’re complaining about is that the removal of jump-sniping has made Vassili completely useless, you’re wrong. Jump sniping was challenging, skillful and FUN, for both players and spectators. The real problems are that A) the skill curve of Vassili has been shortened, making playing him much less fun for higher skilled players and for spectators and B) that the nerf was given through simple RNG rather than any other kinds of available nerf strategies (check the original posts for a link to my other discussion in which I posted ideas for non-RNG alternative nerfs to jump sniping).[/quote]

Well, can’t deny I don’t have much experience with DB. But, for some reason, I still could not find any high level <50+> player who complained about Vasili. Most high level players from what I have seen prefer to play Nader or Stoker, and rarely Vasili, but I have played some games with 5-7 people on 30-60lvl on both sides, they both had similar scores and somehow Vasili did well doing what he has to do. After all he’s aim based character. Mobile sniper is Redeye, and Grandeur is still nice while jumping, so dunno. Seen players on low level sniping well even high level players with success. And I added that I have seen videos so I know overall how he Was. Because how he Is now, I can see ingame, and so far no one has persuaded me ^^ nor did I hear complaints or cries, not even on twitch <200 people is not much but I would guessed that at least a few people would like to note that there>

But I end this discussion on my side - I cannot disagree that jumping sniping is more fun for watching - after all short fights Are boring, but so far no one has persuaded me, seemingly I did not persuade anyone. Stats will show how much worse Vasili really is - so far I did not hear complaints ingame, and people often talk about this kind of stuff


(Merci1ess) #188

[quote=“friendlyWall;151631”][quote=“ProfPlump;151502”]
No offence mate, but you really don’t seem to have enough experience to make informed decisions on these matters.
If you think that jumpsniping is only for close-range, you’re wrong.
If you think that Vassili is still viable just because you’ve seen videos of people pub-stomping with him, then that’s stupid, because you can pub stomp with ANY merc - what matters is his viability in competitive play.
If you think that what we’re complaining about is that the removal of jump-sniping has made Vassili completely useless, you’re wrong. Jump sniping was challenging, skillful and FUN, for both players and spectators. The real problems are that A) the skill curve of Vassili has been shortened, making playing him much less fun for higher skilled players and for spectators and B) that the nerf was given through simple RNG rather than any other kinds of available nerf strategies (check the original posts for a link to my other discussion in which I posted ideas for non-RNG alternative nerfs to jump sniping).[/quote]

Well, can’t deny I don’t have much experience with DB. But, for some reason, I still could not find any high level <50+> player who complained about Vasili. Most high level players from what I have seen prefer to play Nader or Stoker, and rarely Vasili, but I have played some games with 5-7 people on 30-60lvl on both sides, they both had similar scores and somehow Vasili did well doing what he has to do. After all he’s aim based character. Mobile sniper is Redeye, and Grandeur is still nice while jumping, so dunno. Seen players on low level sniping well even high level players with success. And I added that I have seen videos so I know overall how he Was. Because how he Is now, I can see ingame, and so far no one has persuaded me ^^ nor did I hear complaints or cries, not even on twitch <200 people is not much but I would guessed that at least a few people would like to note that there>

But I end this discussion on my side - I cannot disagree that jumping sniping is more fun for watching - after all short fights Are boring, but so far no one has persuaded me, seemingly I did not persuade anyone. Stats will show how much worse Vasili really is - so far I did not hear complaints ingame, and people often talk about this kind of stuff [/quote]

Jump sniping was a way advanced Vassili players like myself used as a different way to surprise enemies. Right now the game is forcing me to take a peek around a corner by strafing either left or right. If someone sees me due to a missed shot or for whatever reason… My only option is to peek again around that same corner to take a shot. If you don’t suffer from severe short-term memory loss, then it’s just too bad for me but you know exactly where my face is gonna pop. The only thing you need to do is sit tight and wait for it.

I’m a level 62. I’ve played Vassili for over 220 hours. Sure, Vassili isn’t completely broken. If you have good aim he can surely do some damage. But it’s taking an aspect of Vassili that didn’t need to be taken away. It’s just making an already hard mercenary even harder. It’s penalizing good players and locking them to the ground to be even easier targets. The players who main Vassili are very small. Which is probably one of the reasons why this change was made and also the reason why you don’t hear alot of complaints. Alot of people seem satisfied or don’t care about this change simply because they do not use Vassili.

Vassili didn’t need to get nerfed further. He had his instagib removed, fine. Anything else is excessive. I mean, it was day and night with Vassili. As much before as it is now. People would complain for having a Vassili on their team because he sucked. Others were complaining about Vassili because the person playing him was good. Vassili was a skill based mercenary. Jump-Sniping gave him some survivability that he very much needs in these very medium to short range favored maps.

Also high level players prefer to play other mercenaries then Vassili. I mean why wouldn’t you? You can use a rifle in Dirty Bomb and it can aim just as well as a sniper rifle from long range. You can also hip fire. Can’t do that with snipers. You can also jump shoot with a rifle, smg or a shotgun. Which ever you prefer. If you’re going to play Vassili you just hate yourself unless you’re good with him. Even if you’re good with him you’ll have level 1-5 players kick your ass because they can bunny hop and shoot you at the same time while your grounded and forced to move left and right at 2 mph.


(opicr0n) #189

[quote=“Merciless;151965”]Jump sniping was a way advanced Vassili players like myself used as a different way to surprise enemies. Right now the game is forcing me to take a peek around a corner by strafing either left or right. If someone sees me due to a missed shot or for whatever reason… My only option is to peek again around that same corner to take a shot. If you don’t suffer from severe short-term memory loss, then it’s just too bad for me but you know exactly where my face is gonna pop. The only thing you need to do is sit tight and wait for it.

I’m a level 62. I’ve played Vassili for over 220 hours.[/quote]

As you say: lvl 62 with 220 hours, yet you give the above example and call it: “your only option”. Surely you know better than to wait and show your face again, why not move into another position? The above comment explains exactly what was wrong with Vassili pre patch.

/expecting many more disagrees from snipers, im saving them for my snipah disagree trophy ^^


(CLS) #190

Jump sniping was a way advanced Vassili players like myself used as a different way to surprise enemies.

It’s just making an already hard mercenary even harder

Vassili was a skill based mercenary

Dude, yes, Vassili has a high skill celling, pretty much like all the other mercs, stop thinking you are so special because you main him, you are just being annoying.

Now, that nerf was deserved, but not they way the DEV implemented it. I would much rather have seen its accuracy being fucked up while jumping and being back to normal when hiting max height. This would have required skill to actually land headshot that way.


(ProfPlump) #191

Well, to be fair the nerf wasn’t deserved at all, since Vassili wasn’t actually competitive BEFORE anyway - most teams ran mercs with Stark ARs or Sparks if they needed a merc for long range. Jump sniping may have been frustrating for new players who don’t know the HUGE amount of ways to deal with Vassilis who jump snipe, but it wasn’t OP. It was more of a trick up the sleeve to use every now and then, and smart Vassilis would only pop up from the same location once or twice, or else they’d get blasted by the enemies.

But, let’s say a nerf WAS needed, the other point of this whole post is that there are plenty of ways to nerf jump sniping without adding in random spread (there is a link on the original post that leads to another post which lists a few suggested non-RNG alternatives for jump snipe nerfing).


(ProfPlump) #192

[quote=“Opicron;152007”][quote=“Merciless;151965”]Jump sniping was a way advanced Vassili players like myself used as a different way to surprise enemies. Right now the game is forcing me to take a peek around a corner by strafing either left or right. If someone sees me due to a missed shot or for whatever reason… My only option is to peek again around that same corner to take a shot. If you don’t suffer from severe short-term memory loss, then it’s just too bad for me but you know exactly where my face is gonna pop. The only thing you need to do is sit tight and wait for it.

I’m a level 62. I’ve played Vassili for over 220 hours.[/quote]

As you say: lvl 62 with 220 hours, yet you give the above example and call it: “your only option”. Surely you know better than to wait and show your face again, why not move into another position? The above comment explains exactly what was wrong with Vassili pre patch.

/expecting many more disagrees from snipers, im saving them for my snipah disagree trophy ^^

[/quote]

Many parts of many maps don’t have the kind of cover you’re thinking of - often you end up hidden around a wall and there is only one way to stick your head out, because there are no other nearby gaps in the cover.


(Amerika) #193

Pretty much everything @ProfPlump said. I’ve outlined most of those situations that bolt-action users found themselves in during past posts and their options compared to their lack of options they have now. Making a weaker merc even more weak and relegating him to the types of Vas players (and future Aimee players) who sit and hide for the majority of games and take pot shots and not actually help the team push forward on offense or defend properly on defense. You know, the types of players who are joked about constantly.

I’ve yet to hear a person, which includes the devs, come up with a solid logic chain regarding how either the mechanic was OP and required a change or how the game was improved beyond players having one less “annoying” thing to deal with. The only other argument presented was that it puts bolt-action rifles in-line with all other weapons in regard to losing accuracy while jumping. But that can be easily countered by both gameplay logic (different types of weapons need different mechanics in fast paced games) and sniper rifles should then also be accurate from the hip.

I would like to hear the devs opinion on why this mechanic was tried a while back and proven to be a bad choice and rolled back and how things have changed today which makes it a good choice. Beyond “it’s annoying” that is.


(Jesus) #194

No. There is definitely mercs who needs way less skill than others.

Absolutely not Vassili had no actual reason to be nerfed for this. He wasnt OP, this technic was used by very few player, it was just a little trick to get out of certain tight situation just like proxy rushing in an ennemy group droping mine and shooting it to kill everyone, it was just a little trick and this thing was never a problem.

[quote=“CLS;152008”] I would much rather have seen its accuracy being fucked up while jumping and being back to normal when hiting max height. This would have required skill to actually land headshot that way.

[/quote]
Yes It would be a good solution making it harder to pull off


(CLS) #195

No. There is definitely mercs who needs way less skill than others.

You can’t just say no to make a point when debating. Which are they?

Absolutely not Vassili had no actual reason to be nerfed for this. He wasnt OP, this technic was used by very few player

Well, the fact that this topic is so popular kind of contradict your point, but I guess I see what you’re saying. Only experienced players used this technic. Well, I have seen plenty of low levels Vassili jumping around like morons and still headshoting people, but that might just be me being unlucky. Or not.

In the end, we all agree it shouldn’t have been done the way it has been implemented, I am all for the less RNG possible, but in my opinion, this technic still needed a nerf as top players were abusing the s*** out of it, and newbies were just adding more frustration to the overall experience.


(Merci1ess) #196

[quote=“Opicron;152007”][quote=“Merciless;151965”]Jump sniping was a way advanced Vassili players like myself used as a different way to surprise enemies. Right now the game is forcing me to take a peek around a corner by strafing either left or right. If someone sees me due to a missed shot or for whatever reason… My only option is to peek again around that same corner to take a shot. If you don’t suffer from severe short-term memory loss, then it’s just too bad for me but you know exactly where my face is gonna pop. The only thing you need to do is sit tight and wait for it.

I’m a level 62. I’ve played Vassili for over 220 hours.[/quote]

As you say: lvl 62 with 220 hours, yet you give the above example and call it: “your only option”. Surely you know better than to wait and show your face again, why not move into another position? The above comment explains exactly what was wrong with Vassili pre patch.

/expecting many more disagrees from snipers, im saving them for my snipah disagree trophy ^^

[/quote]

I surely lied then. I’m just a level 8.


(Merci1ess) #197

Don’t be butthurt please I’m out of tissues I can’t share. I’m just explaining myself, hotshot.

“Vassili has a high skill celling, pretty much like all the other mercs”

I died at that one. Dieeeeedddd.

You play Dirty Bomb right? Or are we talking about different games here.

PS: Hell yeah I think I’m special.


(Sinee) #198

It is too early in the morning for me to give you the sheer magnitude of education you so desperately require. Are we even talking about the same game?

I need my coffee and Xanax just to wrap my head around this comment. The whole issue with balance in DB is because mercs have different skill ceilings, some high and some low.

You think it’s just as hard to use a shotgun or minigun or grenade launcher or even SMGs as it is to snipe? Have you ever sniped? Do you even…are you feeling okay? Let me check your temperature. You clearly must be running a fever or something. I’m gonna call you a doctor right now ok?


(watsyurdeal) #199

I feel like we’re at this point


(Sinee) #200

@Amerika I just asked shoe on the stream why jump sniping was removed for Vassili since he’s the only merc that can’t accurately hip fire with his primary.

Shoe said no, he can hip fire with his primary.

http://newsen.vn/data/news/2015/3/3/28/10-ngoi-sao-tung-doat-Oscar-nho-vai-dien-dong-tinh-va-chuyen-gioi-7-1425349707.jpg

I quit.