Death of bunnyhopping ?

(B0rsuk) #161

I think RTCW and W:ET are much more about individual skill than TF mods. In Q3F, when I saw one person killing 3 defenders at a time, I’d call it serious ownage. In W:ET it happens regularly.

There were many things in Q3F that simply couldn’t be bruteforced. Put a decent grenadier in flagroom and suddenly recons and medics had a big problem snatching the flag. Grenadiers, minigunners and level3 sentryguns were brutal on defense and needed special tactics and classes to be dealt with. Sentryguns were usually built in very weird places because all it took was 1 nail grenade. To me Q3F was much more about rock, paper scissors than W:ET is.
I have some hopes for ET:QW . Attacking some vehicles or turrets from the front will probably be a stupid thing. This means that we’ll go back to rock, paper, scissors . People will be forced to think about tactics and counters, again. Sounds great.

(SCDS_reyalP) #162

You keep saying that, but you haven’t offered a whit of coherent argument as to why.

You seem to think that because the current most popular team shooters (CS* and BF* I suppose) don’t feature strafe jumping it proves your point, but there’s a lot more important factors behind their dominance than the lack of bunny hopping. Two is a pretty small sample size. Speculation about ET:QW based on reports of people who played a pre-release version for a short time doesn’t add much either.

It is a fact that you can make an extremely good team game that features bunny hopping or other fast, skilled movement. This is proven by *fortress, Tribes, RTCW, ET and so on.

(SCi-Fi) #163

I dont care, I hope SD kill any abuse of bunny hopin. I dont mind a
stamina bar with a certain amount and thats it. You want UT/Q3 style of play then go play UT/Q3.

(Nail) #164

it’s already been said, no stamina bar

(B0rsuk) #165

Were these games good because of bunnyhopping, or despite it ?
I’m not directly against tricks, but I hate tricks that look like glitches. That’s why I don’t mind that there are going to be vehicle tricks.

We learned to accept some things and game features that look very silly at first. A medic healing people with his axe. Rocketlaunchers as main close combat weapons ! A shotgun that can’t kill anyone with one shot (Quake… to this day I wonder if it was meant as some kind of joke after DooM shotgun overpoweredness). Ammo and powerups scattered around the map … legacy of single player maps used for multiplayer. UT still does this, I hear.
These are things that are eventually accepted by players, but look very silly or downright stupid for anyone that comes by. I’m happy that Splash Damage can take a step back. They aren’t worshippers of inertia.

(SCDS_reyalP) #166

Why do you assume that it has to be one or the other? Movement is one thing. Teamwork is a another. They are only vaguely related, in combination with many other factors.

Tribes would certainly be worse without skiing. I’d say the same of TF without bunnyhopping. URT would go from a unique fast paced game to being yet another wannabe CS mod. RTCW and ET would be less affected (a well organized team that never strafe jumped could do just fine), but I don’t see how they would be better or more team oriented without strafe jumping.

“Looking stupid” doesn’t bother me if the game is exciting to play. Making movement a skill for players to develop certainly can add to the excitement.

(Flesh) #167

You keep saying that, but you haven’t offered a whit of coherent argument as to why.

Its interesting that you keep contradicting me but you havent even botherd to read my firist post in this topic (page 10).

(B0rsuk) #168

In such case I recommend you the World of Padman ! It’s pure fun, trust me, and it’s completely free ! It offers you the level of immersion comparable to games with bunnyhoping.

http://padworld.myexp.de/index.php?fullscreen=picdisplay&gallery=action&pic=6
http://padworld.myexp.de/index.php?fullscreen=picdisplay&gallery=action&pic=13
http://padworld.myexp.de/index.php?fullscreen=picdisplay&gallery=action&pic=4
http://padworld.myexp.de/index.php?fullscreen=picdisplay&gallery=action&pic=11

W:ET already has far too much skill. In Q3F you could counter skill with some strategy, like placing pipebombs here, sentrygun there, or minigunner there. Strategy means little in W:ET when no matter what you do 3 players with good aim on opposite team can shoot everything down. It doesn’t matter that mg42 deals more damage than thomp40, because thomp40 deals enough to kill mg42 even at long range. Don’t get me started about snipers, scope doesn’t let you see farther and makes you very easy target for headshots. On offense, all Field Op can do is stop your team from attacking. Rifle grenades and panzer are unreliable. Besides, with skilled enough players panzer/rifle kill slower than smgs, and the only advantage left is that you can kill something out of your field of view. If W:ET was about something other than aiming skill, we wouldn’t see 90% of people playing smg medics and getting away with it.
In W:ET it’s skill that counters strategy, not the other way around.

Before you say that I just got owned, I was on the top of my team after 2 maps of african campaign, playing smg engy. And my team wasn’t that bad, they had decent aim and were quite aggressive. It’s just that the opposite team had small number of 40-50 percent accurate medics.

Tribes: I only played a mindless Tribes1 clone which I won’t mention to avoid making it more popular. But I heard that Tribes1 had… vehicles. And they weren’t really used because skiing was faster. I dare to say that Tribes suffered from skiing just as much as it benefited from it.

(SCDS_reyalP) #169

I did read it. It is precisely the kind of thing I’m talking about… an unsupported assertion rather than a logical argument. You are telling ME to accept something because YOU say it puts more emphasis on individual skill. There’s no reason a game can’t reward both individual skill AND teamwork.

If you think Im wrong then go talk to SD, the professionals who intetionaly removed it from their game.

I don’t think SD has confirmed that they removed all bunny hopping / strafe jumping. Some people who briefly played a beta version said they couldn’t do it.

Before you say that I just got owned, I was on the top of my team after 2 maps of african campaign, playing smg engy. And my team wasn’t that bad, they had decent aim and were quite aggressive. It’s just that the opposite team had small number of 40-50 percent accurate medics.

Maybe you should play or watch some clan matches. Teamwork and strategy FAR outweighs individual skill, although the top teams obviously need both. Pubs are inherently disorganized, and so clearly put more emphasis on individual skills. In any case, it doesn’t sound like bunny hopping was a major factor in your experience. If it didn’t exist in ET, those skilled meds would have had pretty much the same impact.

(Flesh) #170

I don’t think SD has confirmed that they removed all bunny hopping / strafe jumping. Some people who briefly played a beta version said they couldn’t do it.

Some quite a few ppl confirmed it, I doubt the testers (usualy clan folk) would be wrong about something like that. It was also confirmed that there is no stamina bar and it was definetly confirmed that you can sprint constantly. So I think we can agree theres a high probability of bunnyhopping being removed.

I told you to “talk to SD” simply as another argument to support my claim. No recent team games (the succesful ones, I dont play all of them) include the bunnyhopping feature, for example CoD 1/ 2 (despite quake engine) Americas Army, Counterstrike(s), Battlefield '42/ Vietnam/ 2/ 2142 + Idontknowhowmany mods. No bunny hop in any of them, more se, players are rather slow and vulnerable. Ever heard of games like Rainbow Six (how many sequels?), Ghost recon, Operation Flashpoint? Those are team games. The rest is an improvisation of trying to turn something which is essentialy a deathmatch into team game (hence so many mods in your examples). What does this trend in recent fps show? If team games are just developing as a genre by seperating from deathmatch games, than its up to the developers to filter those deathmatch aspects which do not belong into team games. From all the examples above we can see that developers (including SD) have decided that, for some reason, bunnyhopping should not be in team shooters.
I will try to explain that reason for removing bunnyhoping. I may get it wrong and/or you may disagree but it is still a fact that bunnyhoping does not belong in team shooters if we are to go by the views of proffesional game makers and the majority of gamers who play their games.

Example. When you spot a group of enemies generaly you have two choices:
a) Wait for backup

b) Charge in and rely on your skills to win

The option you should choose in team games is always: a) wait for backup. Becouse of this you should always move with team members. When you run into the enemy you attack together and coordiante. Thats how you win. Every time you decide to charge in on your own you should be punished becouse that is not teamplay. You should never be allowed to make up for the lack of teamplay with your individual skills by chargeing in and winning all the same. This is what bunnyhoping does, along with other trickjumps and general fast movement. You can charge in and use tj to gain speed then use stamina to move incredebly fast and kill your opponents as if it were some deathmatch skirmish. And you dont have to wait for backup or any help from your team. Even though your opponents did play as a team and there was no terrible disproportion in skill either, they still lost.
Im not saying that team games should require no skill at all. They can require as much skill as they like as long as it does not damage team play. Teamplay should go firist. If you like winning becouse of your indvidual skills more than becouse of teamplay than go play deathmatch, such ppl are only failed quakers anyways, hiding in team fps where they can shoot “nOObs”.

Sry for the long post everyone. Its just that it gets my blood running when I have to explain the obvious :slight_smile:

(The Pope) #171

UT2004 onslaught was very successful and it is a reasonably recent team FPS with lots of jumping. UT2007 looks like it will be even more team focused without getting rid of the speed. Largely because a lot of people like fast games and dislike deathmatch (which always turns into a retarded spamfest). Plus there’s slow deathmatch games like halo and FEAR, which make your definition seem kind of strange.

(da.newb711@gmail.com) #172

I don’t like bunny hopping. Sure, it adds a challenge and can make you get to a place faster but I think that the game designer should find a way of making the game have depth and being able to stay in the action without having result to exploitations of the physics system. I don’t like glitches.

(AKA Sneaky) #173

They are idiot scripts maker, don’t bother arguing. They waste more time making scripts than they play the game.

(Devilken) #174

[quote=“Flesh”]

This is what bunnyhoping does, along with other trickjumps and general fast movement. You can charge in and use tj to gain speed then use stamina to move incredebly fast and kill your opponents as if it were some deathmatch skirmish. And you dont have to wait for backup or any help from your team. Even though your opponents did play as a team and there was no terrible disproportion in skill either, they still lost.

Try to do that and gain that result in W:ET against a “non-n00b” team first :roll:

/rant on
That’s why I hate (most) “Realistic” FPS, they just “assume” no one can be skillful because they NEED the team VERY BADLY.
So in the end, those who camp at the right place(well…they call it “positioning” and “covering”), wins. If ever anyone charge in and shoot sbd down, he must be cheating
/rant off

I fail to see any logical reason that a simple jump / charge will make the team work completely broken.

BTW, it seems more and more modern fps(I mean those made in these few years) are “Realistic” FPS, less and less quake / UT like “non-Realistic” FPS. :frowning:

(DarkangelUK) #175

It’s neither exploits nor glitches. And if you’re able to get to a section the “wrong way” or a way not intended… then that’s just bad mapping.

(fart666) #176

:lol: well said, and dont forget to duck and sneak while making your way or you’ll look so unrealistic… :lol:

(jah) #177

ahhaha

every team needs a rambo : ) or else we’d be utter mindless robots running around holding each other hands and well, having no fun at all : )

good team play consists on knowing how your teammates play (their style, strengths and weaknesses etc), and knowing how to combine all different aspects of each member into a good, solid team.

a rambo player, taking out 6 enemy team members is way more fun than running, waiting, running, waiting, getting shot in the back by your just-too-close-teammate, waiting, running.

from your point of view, someone should have benched Micheal Jordan because he was just too much of a rambo player back in the Chicago Bulls days, or Cristiano Ronaldo @ Manchester United. both players as well as spectators love a good rambo : )

pc gaming isn’t like the army. if it was, no one would be playing computer games.

@topic:
bunnyhoping is a skill, and as any other skill you get rewarded if you master it. it’s fun and makes games faster paced.

oh and btw, all of those deathmatch games you talked about, you know… they had a CTF team mode right? just a heads up : )

if ET:QW will have bunnyhopping or not, well we’ll only find out when it’s done. i bet that even if the game gets out without it, some modder will prolly add it back in (bongoboy will prolly leave the lines of code needed in the source, commented out - i hope \o/). even so, we’ll have tribes skiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing woohooo \o/

J

(da.newb711@gmail.com) #178

It’s neither exploits nor glitches. And if you’re able to get to a section the “wrong way” or a way not intended… then that’s just bad mapping.[/quote]

What is it then? I don’t think the developers purposely put it in there to make everyone need to jump around to move faster. :expressionless:

(DarkangelUK) #179

It’s a side effect of the engine. It may not have been “purposely” put in there, but it was purposely left in there. It’s not as if they couldn’t have removed it… infact many mods did remove it. They obviously saw the depth it could bring and left it there.

(AKA Sneaky) #180

They removed it in most games, or counter it with stamina, which can be bypassed with adrenaline for a short amount of time. Unless your playing a mod or modified some server options.