Current patch Time To Kill (TTK)

(Rex) #61

Ohhhh dear…:rolleyes:

(INF3RN0) #62

DB is a niche game overall, but it’s trying to attract people to that niche by making it more welcoming. Tracking vs reflex based is pretty complicated in an ET game and hard to compare to the games you mentioned because they all have fast TTKs for different reasons. When you think of ET you think of being able to kill relatively quickly with headshots, though the “slow TTK” comes from purely body shot aiming. This simply increases the skill curve for “consistent aim” vs “twitch aim” and really becomes an issue of personal preference rather than one being better than the other.

I consider fast RoF to ruin the entire point of headshot bias, as you can simply kill an opponent with body shots before they even have time to react. The way RTCW works in gun play makes it the CoD of the ET games in comparison to how it was approached in ETpro and then furthered in ETQW. The best example is how non-functional DB was when the spread system was trying to force people to burst fire. At that point in time the RoF being as high as it was made bursting pointless because again you could kill someone by spraying at their body faster than bursting at the head. The reduction of spread in combination with the high RoF of course ends up allowing precise aiming to become rewarded, but again the same problem from high RoF exists.

The CoD system does work, but don’t we want to retain some what of a “easy to learn, hard to master” objective? We only need a system that allows for a group at the lowest level of play to kill each other without frustration, but not necessarily have those limitations carry over almost identically to higher levels of play. Maybe one solution is to have a significantly lower RoF where in it takes both less bodyshots and headshots to kill overall, and ensuring that headshots always have a more consistent effectiveness than bodyshots. ETQW for example severely punishes lack of head aim with fairly high requirements to kill someone with both head shots and body shots. The bigger those numbers get the more difficult it becomes in terms of consistency of aim, but those requirements could easily be lessened with a similar disparity between the two to make it less intimidating to a wider audience, but retaining that potential skill gap from mastery at higher levels.

(Dragonji) #63

Just played a few rounds yesterday. I think time to kill is better than before, however, RoF is a lil’ bit too high.

This is a good explanation :slight_smile:

PS. Thanks Anti for clarifying what the heck TTK abbreviation means :smiley: (no sarcasm)

(HellToupee) #64

You didn’t burst in DB because of the wonky weapon handling not because of bodyshots vs headshots, even in bf3 where you don’t even bother with aiming at heads you burst fire. Spread in DB was just not intuitive with weapons that started inaccurate rather than a steady linear increase in spread as you shoot it would have no spread for a bit and then suddenly bloom and recoil like crazy at some limit and took ages to settle down.

TTK ruins the headshot bias not RoF, ETs headshot bias was not any different to RTCWs, it was just much more forgiving in getting them

(Raviolay) #65

I you are going to quote at least don’t do it out of context please, or is the the purview of all in these forums to give knee a jerk reaction out of context. I did propose to remove all the movement penalties. Everyone else is ROF, that will then most likely mean changing the clip sizes of the guns again, then the damage per bullet/fall off again. Then Re-balancing the classes abilities, with the jump in the average TTK that comes with making it easier shoot. All just to accommodate simplistic full spray shooting, that pre-patch if you knew how the weapon fired you could compensate for. All the guns have gotten to the point where they fire the almost all in the exact same manner, some just pew pew more than others. I suppose in your eyes the what would make it better still, the speed off the game could be made faster to add difficulty to compensate for simple shooting. This sound familiar somehow…

(RasteRayzeR) #66

I always agree when it comes to make movements more dynamic, yet I don’t believe this will be enough to compensate for TTK. It will force players to empty faster their mags and the killing sprees would suffer from it. This is the heart of gameplay design, and this is all but a piece of cake

(Protekt1) #67

Generally I think you make sense. You can compensate for the spread by reducing your rof (ignoring ADS for the moment). People now want ROF reduced with the reduced spread which is almost (but not quite I should note) literally what you’re doing when you compensate for spread prepatch. In other words, the outcome is about the same but which is easier and which is better for the game, is the question that should be asked. Do you want slower ROF but highly consistent outcome or higher ROF that can achieve highly consistent outcome with the practice of mastering burst firing. Well, I should also note that full auto is viable with the latter option but does come at the cost of highly random success that is a bit contrary to competitive gaming. I think less random is better. You could achieve these near instant ttks in the same manner of full spraying before but the randomness of the spread had to be on your side.

Reducing random elements in gun mechanics should be an important guide in how to develop a fps. CoD does it by having no ADS and only closer range hipfire accuracy. Games like Unreal do it with weapons that have no spread or very predictable projectiles. That is not to say these systems have no random elements at all. CS for example has very predictable recoil patterns, except while moving at full speed.

So I guess to be completely clear, I would choose lower rof + tighter spread over higher rof + pre-patch spread because it produces more consistent outcomes.

(Rex) #68

Which context? You only said how the spread is at the moment. So didn’t you write you want the old spread back?

Nope you didn’t.

What has ROF to do with clip size?

I have no idea what you try to say. Got really problems to understand your English.

So you seriously try to tell me to compensate random spread?

Again, no idea what you are saying. :confused:

(Raviolay) #69

Each to their own at least you bothered to give your rationale behind it, my reason would be just that it is quicker to implement, does approximately the same thing. That and if there is any changes to movement, however unlikely that may be, having no penalty with when moving and firing (this includes air), would only promote the use movement to gain advantage.

(Raviolay) #70

???

No I did not eh.

If you had the old spread with with no spread penalty increase for movement you could still get quick kills, only you would have to burst fire. Or memorize the fire pattern for your gun and compensate, when firing at full auto, which is another skill in it’s self. Ether way the fire fights should last a little longer under this system, the only concern would be pistols for balancing.

As for keeping it as it is.

The spread is not random the guns follow a fire pattern however basic it may be, if you adjust the ROF, the ability to track headshots will become easier still, the clip sizes will be lowered. Or (or even in conjunction with) they will have to adjust the damage dealt per bullet. Medic pack’s will have to go under review as well as ammo packs, as will the time spent looking at a spawn screen. Nothing other than the accuracy has changed, this however throws all prior balancing measures out of the window. So in short as I see it a lot more work, that may not be necessary when they could be giving me my crouch jump.

(Rex) #71

[QUOTE=Raviolay;441439]???

No I did not eh.[/QUOTE]

Alright so it was your English. But nevermind.

(INF3RN0) #72

I’d recommend it not be too extreme. It also should vary per weapon or perhaps the weapons themselves would just have even reduction applied to their already different spreads. The crouch spread reduction should only really be around 10-15% less otherwise if it were 50% everyone would just want to crouch all the time. It would be cool though if crouching effected fall-off as well as spread.

(Raviolay) #73

Something about context & conjunctions springs to mind… then again never mind.

(Humate) #74

The spread is not random the guns follow a fire pattern however basic it may be, if you adjust the ROF, the ability to track headshots will become easier still, the clip sizes will be lowered.

Knowing or understanding the recovery rate for spread and recoil is essential for good weapon control and aim, but knowing the actual spread pattern isnt that important. It doesnt make aiming for headshots easier.

(montheponies) #75

The spread is now much better - especially the reduction in animation when ironsighted - but I think it’s hard to pinpoint whether the TTK is ok or not, mainly as you have a diverse range of weapons so each encounter can be half decided by your class / weapon choice. I’ll go with the herd and say reduce the RoF ever so slightly…

next week - we’ll argue about the level of recoil in the now slower RoF…

(Raviolay) #76

loving the postulation hear however lets be frank, my suggestion on the basis that it does not conform to past games. Will never see the light of day, it’s apparently anti-competitive (then again this is something I am not accustomed to). To top it off their are those unable or unwilling to comprehend what I suggest. Ultimately those that do tend disagree, and do so with no rhyme or reason (exceptions withstanding), that derails any real discussion.

(Mustang) #77

Do you mean creep or recoil here?

Because I don’t see how it is possible to compensate for spread.

(Humate) #78

As posted above you cant compensate for spread knowing the spread pattern itself.
However you can compensate by knowing the recovery rate, which then determines the firing method. eg tap/burst/full

However in order for tap/burst/full methods to come into play properly, the rate of fire needs to be slower.
As inferno put it, it cheapens the ability to track heads because Fast RoF does most of the work for you vs body.

(BomBaKlaK) #79

Actual TTK make me feel this game like COD … 1rst to see first to kill …
The previous one was to long but now this is to short imo.

(Anti) #80

We’ll do some more tweaking on this front, TTK is ever so slightly too fast right now we think. We’ll make a few more tweaks and then do another round of testing and see how it goes.