CovertOps XP is messed up (long)

(Pamper) #1

The XP awarding for CovertOps is all wrong. They don’t get points for helping team, but they’re given points for being useless. (Sorry to write so much…)

<u>The top 3 most helpful things a CovertOp can do</u> (sorted):
1. Let engineers through Axis door.
2. Spot mines.
3. Spot enemies (adding them to command map).

Instead, <u>the most common actions for a Covert on pub servers</u>:
4. Play dressup.
5. Pretend you can snipe.

Items #1 and #3 are very important, but don’t give you any XP at all. (#2, spotting mines, gives 3xp each, so it’s just fine. Even though few players bother to do it). Attempting to snipe is often a waste, because very few players are accurate enough to kill this way. But they only get XP if they’re actually killing enemies, so this is alright.

The big problem is playing dressup. Changing into an enemy uniform is worth 5xp- more than killing the enemy himself! (which is normally 3xp) What does a CovertOps think when he’s walking along and finds 3 dead enemies? “Cool! 15xp for me! I’d better hurry to get all their pants before they melt”. (Point-Whores will fire an unsilenced bullet between each one, to destroy the existing disguise)

The worse I’ve seen was once when I was playing an Axis medic. Nobody else on the server was any good with SMGs, so I dominated the enemy Rambo-style (stealing their Thompsons for more bullets). And I did lots of reviving too. But I only had #2 XP on my team- there was a CovertOps ahead of me… who did nothing but take pants from the Allies I’d killed! :angry: When me or a teammate killed an Ally, the killer got 3 XP, but this guy got 5. He didn’t have to worry much about defending himself either- he could run right into the battlefield to steal clothes, because I’d revive him if he got shot. Not only did he earn XP for being useless, but he actually hurt our team- he wasted healing that could’ve gone to other people, and he slowed our reaction time because we always had to check if enemies were actually valid targets before shooting.

Stealing a uniform should not be a way to earn much XP. It’s supposed to be a way to make yourself less detectable, and thus more powerful. It’s grabbing a powerup. Players don’t get XP when they take a healthkit or ammopack- why should they get XP for grabbing a uniform? XP should be given for performing useful tasks- wearing a disguise should be worthwhile for helping you achieve those tasks, not as a goal on its own.

I seem to recall that in the map test ET release (fueldump only), CovertOps got much less XP for stealing pants. But their XP never kept up with the others on their team, so I guess SD increased the disguise award. (They also made sniping more powerful, which gives Coverts more XP as they can actually kill someone with a headshot, instead of just leaving him at 40%)

<u>My suggestions to change this</u>:
1. Reduce the XP award for stealing a uniform to 0 or 1. As compensation, make disguise more powerful. Making it harder for enemies to detect you would make it more powerful, but also lead to more newbies getting TKed because they were running the wrong direction. And the game should be friendly to newbies.
So instead, make it easier for teammates to recognize that the CovertOp is a friend (reducing his chance of getting TKed). This could be done by making the “Don’t Shoot” sign pop up earlier, or even be floating over his head permanently. Also, disguised teammates should have a special icon on the commandmap. If there’s a spy in the Allied base, an Axis mortarer can’t tell who he is- his icon looks just like every other enemy(unless you use the fireteam menu). CovertOps shouldn’t encourage themselves to be teamkilled by indirect fire.
(Other ways to increase the power of disguise would be to make corpses melt slower, or accelerate the clothes-changing process)

2. If you let a teammate through a locked door, you get 2xp. (But you can only get the bonus once per person per 15 seconds). If within 30 sec of passing the door (without respawning) that teammate makes a kill or objective, the CovertOp gets 50% (round down) of the XP (not reducing what the teammate gets- giving you 50% in addition to him getting full normal amount).

3. If a teammate kills an enemy, and he couldn’t see the enemy when he press FIRE, but a CovertOps could, the covert gets 1 xp.

4. If a covert kills while in disguise, he gets 3xp. If he was in disguise within 5 seconds ago (but lost it by shooting) then it’s 2 xp. (These are covert skill points, in addition to the light-weapons you get for the kill as normal)

(Ranstaton) #2

I like some of your suggestions. I play as covert ops a lot and I definetly agree with you that they get xp way too easily. I usualy have double the amount of xp as the next guy and I’m not even trying to point whore.

I definetly think the experience for disguising should be toned down, zero might even be best because it wont encourage people to disguise even when it isn’t needed.

The main problem with Covert Ops is that it is mainly designed to be an independent unit. The ability to disguise is worthless in a group because when you are with a bunch of guys that are all not shooting you, there’s a pretty fucking high percent chance that you are also an enemy… If you are among the enemy, there’s a pretty big chance you will be shot by team mates just like any other enemy, because it gets very confusing determining which one you are (once that little red x thing pops up once on a group of enemies that are all mixed together it is very difficult to figure out which one it is).

The only time when you are a team player is when you have a specific object to destroy (the ramp off of the beach in battery), when you are sniping as part of the defense (fuel dump) or spotting mines. And spotting mines is an independent activity also.

They need to add some abilities that will help get the covert to work alongside the team, or atleast make it more distinguishable when he’s among the enemy.

I kinda forgot what I was talking about so I hope that makes sense and is on topic…

(Pamper) #3

:bump:
Ok, I just thought of something else wrong with the system of giving a CovertOps 5 XP each time he changes clothes:
Frequency of stealing pants is a poor measurement for comparing the skills of one Covert versus another. In fact, the better Covert may keep his disguise on longer, which gets him less XP than someone who keeps changing.

<u>Let me give a long example:</u> Suppose it’s the endgame of fueldump. The tank has breached both walls, and Allied demolotion teams are trying to break through to the petroleum. With 12 minutes left to play, 2 CovertOps join Axis. They are Alice and Bob.

Alice chooses a K43, steals a uniform from a FieldOp, and goes to hang out at behind the sniper hill, pretending to call for artillary. She’s sneaky and never gets caught, even though she breaks the CommandPost twice and occasionally pulls out a rifle to shoot Allies in the back of the head. Suppose she kills one every 40 seconds- pretty awesome. Gives her an average of 4xp/kill, and the Allies assume they’re being sniped from somewhere inside the fueldump. From her position in the rear, Alice broadcasts the locations of all Allied squads, so the defenders can intercept them perfectly.

Bob, on the other hand, selects the FG42, because he plans on close-quarters battle. He sits inside the fueldump with other defenders to shoot Allied engineer teams, who attack every 30 seconds. After shooting during each assault, he’s lost his disguise, so naturally he picks a fresh corpse and gets dressed. (He’s not point-whoring, so he doesn’t steal 2-3 pants in a row, even though this is possible). From his position on the ground inside the fueldump, he provides very little spotting of enemy movement.

So, after the Axis Victory, which of those 2 players wins Best Covert?
Alice stole pants once, destroyed two command posts, and sniped 17 people: 15 + 27 + 174 = 87 Covert skill points.
Bob stole pants 24 times. 245 = 120. We have a winner! (Even though he was basically an SMG soldier, and would’ve been more useful as either Medic or FieldOp)

Suggestion: A partial improvement would be to give Coverts 1 XP for every 10 seconds they stay in an enemy uniform, rather than 5 Xp when first stealing it. That would provide some award to people who avoid the enemy discovering the secrety. (It would still allow someone to hide in their base and collect points, but it’s better than the current system)

(amazinglarry) #4

What’s it matter? All that XP is doing is going towards covert ops skill which in the end is “assasin” big wupp. It’s not like all their covert ops skills are going to medic abilities and such, and who really cares if the less skilled covert ops has more XP than somebody else who is better than him? I don’t play the game to compare my XP to anybody elses.

But I do agree that they’re the easiest class to master. And I like the idea of letting teammates through doors if one is uniformed. Even tho if somebody really wanted to point whore for example on oasis, they can just let all their teammates through the door next to the old city spawn. Pretty much free points, but that’s only if people on your team are helpin out by exploiting. Anyways just my 0.02$

(DARK4SE) #5

Pamper, you have some really good idea’s.

I really like the idea of having a floating icon over the covert op’s head

(McAfee) #6

Sometimes i would steal a uniform early on the battery map. I would spend the rest of the game, just opening the door for my teammates on the other side of the map.

I let other COs without a uniform go inside and handle the generator. Or better yet, leave it there so the axis has no idea we are on that side of the map. Our engies go straight for the gun controls.

Most of the time i will hide and stay out of harm, run back and forth the command post, etc. I would constantly help my teammates into the axis base.

As stated on the first post, I am not rewarded for this. I could end the map with even less then 20xp, but i’m really helping the team. I think they should give points for everyone that crosses the door. Of course some sort of control should be done, maybe make it once-per-life or time based.

About Stolen Uniforms:
I still like the points for stealing uniforms, but maybe they should make you keep the uniform a few seconds before giving you 5xp. Something similar to how battle sense work. Some people steal uniforms even if they know they are about to die, they do it for the points. And this will stop people stealing uniforms 3 times in a 10 second span.

(Vengeance) #7

I have had a lot of experience playing covert ops and i have to agree about the exp system. 5xp for taking clothes is excessive and does encourage ppl to xp whore. Maybe they should tone it down to 1xp per suit, the same way they put med packs and ammo packs to 1xp.

Having 1xp would put ppl off from trying to steal 3 suits in succession because you are risking your life for 3xp, hardly worth it. Hell it might even encourage more ops to spot mines which i think is the best way to get your covert xp up and the best way to help your team.

(Mon) #8

As for CovOps being point whores?

You cant steal a uni when you already have one on newbie…so for them getting 15 points for 3 unis before they “melt” aka decay, as any other normal player would say, is complete bullshit.

Play the game, fileplanet.com sucks. I wish they made this shit so you had to pay for it. Then we wouldnt have shit threads like this.

(Blade_187) #9

Actually it is quite possible and really easy to do. Simply take the silencer off your pistol (alt-fire). This way if you have 2 dead bodies in front of you, you steal one then fire your unsilenced gun. You will instantly lose your uniform which you just took because you fired a ‘noisy’ weapon. You can now nick the other uniform. Do it fast enough and you could probably get 3 uniforms. 2 is the most I have got, but only because I haven’t seen 3 dead bodies nicely lined up for me to try yet!.

(Ranstaton) #10

That is the nicest reply I’ve ever seen to someone who really didn’t deserve it…

Anyway, back on topic:

Points for letting team mates through doors is a good idea, even with the possibility to point whore it…

I’m not sure about getting points over time while you are disguised. I don’t think you should be rewarded for just keeping your disguise. There are times when being disguised is not helpful to you or the team (such as running towards a bunch of team mates). I think it would be better if you got more experience points for anything you did while disguised.

If you killed someone and kept your disguise, you get like 2 extra experience points. If you destroy a command post while disguised, you get blah blah blah…

(octalc0de) #11

I’ve read this forums for a while now, but never registered an account. Now I see a brilliant oppurtunity to put in my 2c, I signed up to tell you to stop trolling. Stop trolling. :rolleyes:

(Rippin Kitten) #12

I do agree that there are some things with the current XP system that allow people to whore. The Covert Ops class is no different. However, in the bigger scheme of things, I don’t think its that big of an issue.

Lets say you do quickly grab three pairs of pants from enemies your teammates killed. You get 15xp, but what exactly does that do for you? A little faster use of smoke or satchels? A little steadier aim while sniping? One hit backstab? Not that any of these are bad, but they’re certainly not incredibly powerful. And I doubt that they will be critical to your team winning the map. You move up the scoreboard list, maybe get a little medal for being the best covert ops. But unless you’re using those pants to help your team you will still lose the map.

The difficulty here is that its near impossible for a computer to determine what things a player does to “help the team.” On battery, did a lone engineer manage to sneak through the back door, avoid the axis at spawn, and get a secret plant on the gun controls? Or did a medic follow him and provide a critical revive that allowed him to plant? Or was it the soldier that flamed six axis coming out of spawn that helped the demo team pick off the would-be defusers? Now the engie gets XP for blowing the gun, the medic gets XP for the revive, but the soldier gets nothing for injuring six guys. Take a look at radar and this problem gets worse. A field ops that picks off two defenders while capturing one of the radar parts gets just as much XP as a field op who sits at the main entrance and kills two random axis players. The first guy brought the team one step closer to victory. The second didn’t really do anything. But what if the first guy just killed two axis players who were AFK, and the only reason he was able to cap the parts was because the second guy killed the two defenders hot on his tail? Both get the same XP, but the second guy was clearly vital to the win. Coding something to recognize these situations would be incredibly hard to do. Not only are there a vast amount of varibles to consider, but even between two human players there will be disagreements as to what was important to the win.

The point is, the XP system is just there to reward you for using your class specific skill. The point values were determined based on how fast each class rises up the XP ladder. It would be a mistake to assume that just because one player has lots of XP he’s necessarily a good player and critical to the team. Likewise, people that brag “Im teh l33t c0v3r7 0p5!” on goldrush when their allied team never moved the tank are basically conceding that they were a waste of a connection. =)

The best solution to this is to acknowledge other players for their help when the round is over. If a covert helped you get through the door in fueldump, give him props at the end of the round. A crack team of medics that kept your team out of limbo deserve some thanks. Someone thanking me for keeping them well stocked with ammo means much more to me than some silly medal and listing on the roll of honor.

RK

(Borsuk) #13

An insightful thread ! I’ll wake up in few minutes…

Nevermind. I really like some of your suggestions ! Now it’s time for mine !

Rippin - IT’S NOT THE POINT. The point is, current exp system evaluates covop usefulness in bad way. Exp increase is meant to encourage specific behaviour. If it encourages soldier-style smg fights + pants stealing. It’s WRONG.

My proposed Covert Ops exp changes: (I hope the code can handle them !)

a) 0 exp for disguising

b) 4 exp for kill without losing disguise (picking up another one makes you vulnerable to fire and wastes your time)

c) 2 exp for a kill withing 5 seconds after losing disguise (suprise attacks are worth rewarding)

d) 5 exp for… throwing Smoke Grenade at construction that needs repair (other than Mg or Command Post). It’s invaluable cover, especially when thrown at tank barrier or bridge to help in repair, or at destroyed tank)

e) 5 exp for throwing Smoke Grenade at construction/objective that should be destroyed (ones that can’t be destroyed via satchel, for instance tank barriers, main door, side entrance, functioning water pump for axis etc. NOT at vehicles. NOT at final objectives, which are hard to reach and smoke doesn’t help - not at FUEL Dump, Gun Controls, Anti-tank guns)

f) 2 exp for throwing Smoke Grenade at Mg nests served by an enemy

g) 3 exp for killing soldiers with deployed Mortar (they are potentially VERY destructive)

h) 2 exp for each enemy killed by teammate… Enemy must be within your line of sight, and NOT in your teammate’s.

i) 2 exp for opening Team Door, awarded once per 30 seconds (to limit abuse).

j) 5 exp for opening Team Door if a teammate is VERY close to you. I’d say half of flamethrower’s range. Awarded once per 15 seconds.

That would be it. My system would promote allied covops for throwing smoke at destroyed Assault Ramp, at lower and upper bunker…

(+Shadow+) #14

i think they should leave steal at xp 5 or reduce it to 2-3 becuse if someon get a uniform they can do much harm to the enemy as an example on goldrush i got an uniform after 5 minutes. i run down to enemy base and stands behind an enemy engy while his plantin his mines and i spot em all :blah: and the good thing is that i got an Field op uniform and they dont get suspicous that i got binos :smiley: also Covert ops can blow command posts whitout loosing his/hers uniform and then walk away from there and nobody is even suspious :smiley:

(Borsuk) #15

It works for you, but there are plenty abusers out there who waste half of their game time on picking up enemy uniforms, and game considers them better Covert Ops than you.

(bogs) #16

the way people play covt ops on a pub will get better. give it time. i find smoke helps in a lot of places.

(Pamper) #17

That’s one thing that could reasonably be changed. Many old CTF games gave you bonus points for killing someone near a flag (“scored an assist”). ET could give you extra points for doing any fighting near an objective.

Say, kills are worth triple XP if you or the victim is carrying a portable objective*, or double if the victim is within a panzer-blast radius of a stationary objective. Or maybe a little larger area, like enough for the whole battery gun-control room (each map would really need a customized “critical objective zone” defined for it).

  • Of course, it opens up a funny opportunity for abuse, like if a field ops grabs the gold and then decides to airstrike the axis spawn hoping for triple XP on 5 kills. Of course, his teammates will probably shoot him if they see him wasting time like that.
(FaKeID) #18

I completely disagree. Covert Operations is an art form. One must keep potential threats in his field of view at all times without looking suspicious (which is fairly easy to do in ET). He must know when to attack and when to dive into the bushes. He must dodge the eyes of enemies, sweep behind them, and use his judgment as to whether the possibility of compromising his disguise is worth the kill. No no, my friend, Covert Ops is something that can never be mastered.

(Vetinari) #19

… but it’s always a good laugh if you walk unharmed past someone with his own uniform … or killing a CO with your uniform from behind :slight_smile:
btw: is it a bug or intended, if you (a CO in disguise) kill someone from behind with the sten you don’t lose disguise if noone else is watching you? it happened several times to me … protecting my eng while he was setting up the dyna at the gun controls.

(DrGratis) #20

Covert ops will lose their disguise if they fire a unsilenced weapon , or are seen by an enemy while killing an enemy…

So shooting someone in the back the the Sten while not being seen would not loose your disguise :moo: