If TTK goes up at all then default resources need to go up. More ammo basically. If you’re constantly running out of resources because you can’t kill very easily, even with consistent good aim, then you will constantly be running out of ammo and that will be horrible for everyone. Also, TTK going up would require medics to be toned down quite a bit because they are already incredibly powerful right now and if they remain that way then people will be fighting over a C4 plant with knives because that’s all they will really have left in an extended fight. Sure, in a real match you won’t have too many ammo issues due to LT’s being around and actually giving out ammo but you also have to think about the game outside of competition where everyone knows and understands their role.
I still think TTK is perfect. It rewards people with great aim but the movement system also rewards people with great evasion abilities. You have to learn both to be a great player because sometimes it’s pretty dumb to stand and fire.
Interestingly enough, lots of people are complaining because healing station is so strong, but the only reason it is like that is to counter the fast TTK (i.e. drop one near a teammate that is activating an objective, otherwise they die in 2-3 hits). You are right in that the rest of the game would need to be re-balanced around a longer TTK, but that was implied anyway by me (I wasn’t suggesting that the TTK be increased but everything else be left the same).
And this is where we differ, I don’t feel particularly rewarded for being able to kill other players quickly or getting high kill scores when the TTK is as fast as it is. I lost count of how many people I snuck up on and killed because I had such an advantage from getting the first few shots in. Similarly, it doesn’t ever feel like I was outplayed when the same happens to me, by the time you take damage and turn around to return fire, you are almost dead so you stand little chance of winning unless the other player is really terrible (and that should never be taken into consideration where balancing is concerned). The fast TTK makes camping incredibly effective (as it does in most games with a fast TTK) which is why it is such a popular tactic, even if it drags the game down because players ignore the objectives to concentrate on their KDR.
Fast TTK works for certain game modes such as DM (UT4 Instagib is my goto choice at the moment) but it doesn’t work so well for objective based modes where teamwork should be the priority. TF2 is the exception, because the weapon and class design prevented players from quickly slotting each other across the map, so the fast TTK worked well for that game given the more tactical nature and need for teamwork to get things done. Sadly DB lacks tactical depth, so it has to rely on cheesy gunplay to be entertaining.
I don’t know how many people here played Forge while it was around, but that was a very good game for the design of the classes and how they could work together (combining abilities) to take out opponents quickly. The TTK was much slower, due to lower damage and the ability to block attacks, so teamwork was required to quickly take out high value targets (kill the healers etc) and it worked really well. Sadly the game was let down by poor game mode options, lack of players and badly designed maps.
Uhh, I don’t want to sound like a jerk but I’m sure it will be unavoidable on the internet in a forum post, but have you even played Dirty Bomb? Unless you’re talking about the shotgun at short range or headshots only you are way off base.
What do you mean? It is really easy to quickly kill someone that is activating an objective considering they are locked in place. And when you consider the time it takes to activate them, the healing station is the only way we have (unless the locked mercs have other options) to keep that person alive, other than standing in front of them (I tended to do both playing as Aura) to block the shots aimed at them.
And of course I am talking about headshots, why would you aim at a static targets body?? But you could also factor in ability damage from AoEs etc if you want to. Without healing station, the only way to completely activate objectives is to wipe the other team first.
Healing station is fine as it is, in line with the current TTK.
thing is, if a person is activating objective they need cover. You don’t have to wipe the entire other team, just push them back so they don’t have LoS on the obj
[quote=“immenseWalnut;6956”]Fast TTK works for certain game modes such as DM (UT4 Instagib is my goto choice at the moment)
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Only Chuck Norris can divide by 0.
I’m sorry but comparing TF2 and dirty bomb makes poor sense to me. TF2 most aggressive characters in teamfights (demoman, soldier) have AoE weaponries which should indeed have low Hit to Kill (not TTK). But compared to most of fast paced fps, the TTK in TF2 is rather slow due to the overall slowness of the rate of fire (except heavy ofc) and they do not one hit in most of the situation.
I’ve already said it but to me the game is in the good average in terms of time to kill, even compared to more arcade and fast paced shooters. Longer time to kill would involve WAY STRONGER tracking which would kill the movement aspect of the game. And it would also give defenders a strong advantage because it’d mainly slow the attack down dramatically. And it won’t reduce camping since camping smartly is probably the best way to defend.
Well considering that movement video I’ve seen from PixelTwitch, I don’t think movement or defensive options are the issue. Seems to me the ttk is about right, and the options you have for mobility are exactly right. I think if anything we should wait till the game is out of beta and the best players are going at each other to see how it pans out.
Way too early to change anything, especially since people are still learning the game.
Depends on the objective, some of them have better cover than others. And there is still the problem of abilities (such as Fragger’s grenade) which, if well aimed, can easily kill the person on the objective, so I would say the healing station (or alternative) is still worth using even if you do manage to push the other team back.
well if you want to get this nitpicky, a fragger will OHK anyone with a proper nade, so no amount of healing will save you
I do agree though that objectives could in general use more cover and variety. I miss ETQW objectives where they were different every single time, with just a few repetitions.
Cover and setting objectives is a pure matter of map design. A higher TTK would imply a higher time to set objectives because of engineers set time which is pretty fast right now. Cover on objectives is to me pretty good once you get the necessary requirements at first which is to sweep some particular areas. To give you an example, on trainyard’s first objective, once you’ve closed the barrier and cleaned the right side of the map (attackers reference, left side for defenders), it’s fairly easy to set the objective without any harm at all.
For pure map balance reason, higher TTK can imply massive game design changes which would not be welcome by most of the players such as reducing cover on objectives, highering set times, shortening attackers route, overall redefinition of sniper classes (Higher TTK implies that they will be way harder to counter), some abilities that should not OHK anymore (mines, grenades…) and so on.
IMO, they won’t design the game again right now. Different versions of closed betas have been running for around 2 years and have always been with damage inputs approximately as they are set now.
[quote=“immenseWalnut;6991”]What do you mean? It is really easy to quickly kill someone that is activating an objective considering they are locked in place. And when you consider the time it takes to activate them, the healing station is the only way we have (unless the locked mercs have other options) to keep that person alive, other than standing in front of them (I tended to do both playing as Aura) to block the shots aimed at them.
And of course I am talking about headshots, why would you aim at a static targets body?? But you could also factor in ability damage from AoEs etc if you want to. Without healing station, the only way to completely activate objectives is to wipe the other team first.
Healing station is fine as it is, in line with the current TTK.[/quote]
You seem like you are basing your entire TTK argument off of 100% headshot hit rate rather than what really happens for most players and even some of the best players. TTK is pretty low compared to something like CoD where you die from 3-4 bullets when hit just about anywhere center mass depending on which weapon you use. Bullets do not fire faster in DB and it requires 2-4 headshot’s from most guns in DB to kill and A LOT more if you hit the body. Obviously this changes based on which class you’re shooting at too. Of course the lower HP classes are a lot harder to hit when the person is playing right.
[quote=“Amerika;7130”][quote=“immenseWalnut;6991”]What do you mean? It is really easy to quickly kill someone that is activating an objective considering they are locked in place. And when you consider the time it takes to activate them, the healing station is the only way we have (unless the locked mercs have other options) to keep that person alive, other than standing in front of them (I tended to do both playing as Aura) to block the shots aimed at them.
And of course I am talking about headshots, why would you aim at a static targets body?? But you could also factor in ability damage from AoEs etc if you want to. Without healing station, the only way to completely activate objectives is to wipe the other team first.
Healing station is fine as it is, in line with the current TTK.[/quote]
You seem like you are basing your entire TTK argument off of 100% headshot hit rate rather than what really happens for most players and even some of the best players. TTK is pretty low compared to something like CoD where you die from 3-4 bullets when hit just about anywhere center mass depending on which weapon you use. Bullets do not fire faster in DB and it requires 2-4 headshot’s from most guns in DB to kill and A LOT more if you hit the body. Obviously this changes based on which class you’re shooting at too. Of course the lower HP classes are a lot harder to hit when the person is playing right.[/quote]
The problem is the damage range (best vs worst scenario). If I round a corner and you are stood there with your back to me, I can kill you in 2 pistol shots by hitting you in the back of the head. You have 0 chance to respond and outplay me, because nearly 2/3 of your health will be gone in the first hit. By the time you realise you have taken damage, I will have landed another 1-2 shots to your head to finish you off.
Sure, face to face duels will take longer, but that is NOT how to gauge TTK. TTK is measured in damage vs health, and assumes shots are landed. If DB ever gets better hit feedback (i.e. an audio ding) then most people will realise some of the shots they fire are missing, and that isn’t a TTK issue (many people complain that it takes too long to kill someone, it really doesn’t, they are just missing too many shots). This is why I hate headshot multipliers in games like this. It is fine in a game like UT4 where constant movement is a necessity and only 1 weapon can headshot, but with game/map design that DB uses, headshot multipliers make the game worse (unless you are a crap player that loves camping/playing TDM in which case you will probably love it).
Given the map design, where it is very easy to move around players unless their teammates are very astute, you can often sneak up and murder other players very quickly with little worry of dying. If you get the first shot in, you get the kill, no matter how much better your opponent is than you are. That is not fun, unless you suck badly enough to need to be carried by low skill mechanics. If the TTK was bumped up, you would see many of the low TTK proponents complaining because they got the got the first few shots in and still lost their duel.
that is DPS/health, not TTK. How can you assume shots are landed? I’d be surprised if average accuracy of very good players differed from that in W:ET, where it hovered between 30-40%. TTK is short against newbies that don’t know how to dodge. I would wager that most of your games were against newcomers who don’t know maps (easily backraged), don’t know movement (short TTK), and are generally not as good as those who played for +1 year.
I definitely don’t feel that just because someone got the first shot off, I’m screwed. Quick walljump, taking cover, healing up and re-engaging make it into a nice 1v1. Getting ambushed by two people, now that is an entirely different snowflake!
[quote=“wackyDesert;6370”][quote=“bubblesKeyboard;6295”]
The TTK is fine.
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Really? You’re trying to argue a point on something that is completely subjective. It is all a matter of personal preference. I loved Enemy Territory because it actually took aiming skill to kill someone. Even if some cheap shit tried to backrage you, you could turn around and kill them if you were a better player. In this game if someone comes up behind you, it’s game over, pretty much instantly. This means that people spend the entire game running around trying to find cheap spots to camp and surprise people. I can see how people might enjoy this but I hate it. I don’t want to have to run around twitching all over the place to try and spot people who are being cheap.
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There are many ways you can turn on someone with some situation awareness. It all depends on the merc you are.
if you’re a slayer you can easily turn a corner, pre-aim at head level and nail the other person if you’re a slayer. If they chase you, either they catch you quickly because they’re not a slayer so they can move quickly - and you can take them out easily. If they chase you and they are a slayer, if you run around the corner and stay away for long enough you can start your health regen which can happen since they’re a slayer and they move slow.
if you’re a medic you can just turn a corner, heal yourself and pre-aim at head level. Or you could just run. If they’re a slayer its more of a luck situation but tbh why would you want to engage a slayer merc as a medic. Just run. If they’re not a slayer merc you can take them out with a few headshots and even if this isn’t the case you take away their advantage of having the first shot since you’re back at full health so you’re on an even playing field. If you’re Aura and you sit on a healing station you can go screw yourself.
if you’re a technician, you an easily turn a corner and gtfo - use your movement
I’m not sure what you mean by “being cheap”, the TTK is high enough that camping isn’t effective. It’s only effective in games where the TTK is so low that having 2 shots off before the other person knows is able to down them
What I mean’t is TTK is balanced. It’s not subjective.
[quote=“Eox;6435”][quote=“Szakalot;6264”]I think TTK is overall in a perfect spot.
a) many players don’t know how to dodge. The only time you complain about TTK is when you get killed too fast, people don’t complain when getting fast kills themselves. Dodging makes you live much much longer. There is more to dodging than ADAD, you have to analyze the map and the angles, consider nearby cover you can hide behind. If you run out in the open and try to take two players on from a distance, don’t be surprised if you get killed
b) many weapons are one-shot kills. Fragger’s nades, sniper, shotgun ( i think shotties one-shot 100hp, which I dislike; personally I’d like shotguns only be able to one shot other light mercs).[/quote]
Well, fair enough. I have to admit that players that are not that good may argue about TTK, and I am not the best player in the world so…
Yet, I managed yesterday to do some pretty good games, ending with more than 11k score and things like that, positive K/D ratio (I guess it’s good). Yet I still felt like TTK was really too low. What I have to blame about that TTK is that I can’t have long enough “duels” to take enough satisfaction. Unless me and the guy I am fighting against are going full derp with the aim, it feels short. Too short. I won’t tell that killing four enemies in a row is not jubilant, but what’s with the thrilling feel when you are two gentlemen fighting to death face to face for the control point or something ? Right now it feels like “two seconds later, I am either dead or the guy in front of me is dead”. And let’s not talk about flanking and other surprise attacks : unless the guy who does this fails, you have almost no chance to fight back. That’s what’s bothering me about TTK. Fights are not long enough, and fighting back seems really hard unless you are not engaged the proper way by your enemy. Maybe that’s not what you have experienced, after all it’s more a matter of opinion, but that’s what I truly feel about TKK.
I play a lot of FPS game, begining with Team Fortress 2, and I really wish for a longer TTK. I don’t think a lot of people would mind it, and I really feel like it could be a great improvement. Some players may argue that the game will turn into TDM, but public games have a lot of chances to end like that anyway, and there can be a lot of additionnal pleasure and strategy earned when you take a bit more bullets before dying. At least if enough players agree we could give it a shot, and reverse it if at the end it’s terrible. Very few chances that it happens, but I can dream.
Well, I came from a FPS where the devs had the REAAAAAAALLY GOOD IDEA (no, it’s not) to include a random crit system in their game, so I really don’t feel anything really random here. In addition in TF2 every hits done varies between +10% or -10% damage (something like that), so when you hit something with 100hp with a weapon that deals an average of 50hp per hit, and the enemy in front of you kills you with 2 hps remaining due to the random damage spread, you really want to scream.
In DB, once I learned that shotgun’s spread are tighter than I though with Proxy and everything that can carry one, everything felt less random. There’s still shotgun spread and bullet spread though, but in competitive matches the devs can still add later a function to make that spread static (it’s common in the TF2 competitive format : no random crits, no random bullet spread, no random damage spread), if it’s requested of course. But maybe what you are calling random is not what I think.[/quote]
Landing all body shots between two Skyhammers take an entire mag for one to kill another. Adding more bullets to this is just ridiculous.
If you’re a slayer vs a lower hp player, ttk will be low. other mercs aren’t built to take on fire from a slayer and survive and vice versa.
You know i liked the MP40 and the Thompson from ET. Both weapons matched rate of fire, ammo capacity, reload speed and yes TTK were the secret ingredient special sauce that held ET out as such a great FPS. Sure there were not eleventy different weapons for this new OCD gamer crowd to fondle but who cares?
Some of the weapons in DB seem more spray, reload and spray some more to get one kill. I miss the MP40 and the Thompson as the dueling weapons of choice - Elegant Weapons for a More Civilized Age
