Could a higher Time To Kill (TTK) be a thing ?

(Eox) #1

I really feel like in that game, were’ dying way too quickly.

I discovered DB with a video that a friend sent me. I have to say that I liked it at first look. Something from the creators of Brink, trying to reach a good balance and competitive gameplay. I’m all for it. And the TTK didn’t seem to be that shot too. That’s good, because I tend to prefer games where you don’t die from three bullets…

And well… At the end I was kinda disappoint. I really feel like it’s too easy to die. Okay, I mainly play Proxy, and I’ve just began to try Sawbones, but whatever is the character I use, I really feel a small burst of SMG will most likely take me down in less than one second. I had the opportunity to talk about it with a small group of people, and well, some of them approved.

I do think that a bigger TTK could benefit this game a lot. First, it means longer duels, so ammo characters will be more important (I feel like all ammo support characters are way less played than they were at the first steam closed beta in favor of medics, which is not suprising because you die really quick). Also, it may make duels much more interesting, were it’s no more the first one who finds the other’s back who’ll win (it’s really frustrating to die without having a chance to fight back). Last but maybe not least, I think it may make the game much more attractive for beginner when the game will became much older. Games with a short TTK may be very newbie unfriendly. I can raise TF2 as an exemple : in TF2 TTK can be kinda quick (most of the time, it’s two shots and you’re dead, and TF2’s character speed is way slower than in DB), and there’s also a lot of mechanics to learn. So beginners are easly discouraged when they find a public game with really good players on it.

In order to make TTK bigger, you can work on this :

  • Raising all merc’s HPs, or decreasing all weapon’s damage. It’s the easy way to raise TTK, but maybe not the best.
  • Improved movement system. So far we are only able to wall jump, crouch jump and long jump as advanced movement mechanics. How about giving us movement mechanics to use while in combat in order to evade shots ? Like rolling, sliding… Nothing too crasy. I heard that Brink (another FPS made from you, guys from Splash Damage) was kinda good because of it’s very well made movement system. Why not bringing more Brink in DB then ?
  • Falloff increase for all weapons. May not be the best idea in the world at first… TTK would be virtually the same at close range, but that’s part of why TF2 is not known to be a game were you die way too fast. You do most of your damage at closer range, so you can oftenly fight back if you are engaged from a bit far, without making close quaters ambush playstyles not viable because you wouldn’t deal enough damage. If I think well about it, it could be a nice idea if done correctly.

I really hope I am not the only one who wish for a longer TTK. I really think that game has a lot of potential to be much more than yet another CoD like game (it feels like it to me right now. That’s just my opinion though, and yet I hope it’ll matter). Something great can be achieved. :slight_smile:

(Ribero) #2

TTK feels pretty fine to me, to be honest. The only time I’d consider it “short” is when headshots are being landed, which is fine since it makes for a just reward for aiming well.

My two cents.

(Eox) #3

[quote=“Ribero;6062”]TTK feels pretty fine to me, to be honest. The only time I’d consider it “short” is when headshots are being landed, which is fine since it makes for a just reward for aiming well.

My two cents.
[/quote]

Well, I do think that it’s too low, while I am not against rewarded skill. Being one-shotted because you cross a shotgun user in a corner or due to a sniper rifle user from far awar is really frustrating (however it’s maybe deserved with the sniper guy : a sniper rifle isn’t the easiest thing to use after all) as well as dying from a few bullets of machine guns.

I really don’t think a lot of people would mind a higher TTK, at least not if it’s well enough done. Ambushes have to be rewarding, good aimed shots as well. Making things less punishing make everything way more lovely. But of course skillfull gameplay makes things lovely as well. That’s pretty much why I suggested more movement manoeuvers that would be used during a gunfight in order to reach covers faster or dodge bullets. It can be a very effective way to increase TTK and also making the game funnier to play (I always liked games with a good and well worked on movement system, like Warframe, or Super Meat Boy).

Let’s take it from another point of veiw : would you love a more complete movement system ?

(Rhyno) #4

TTK is perfect as is.

(Litego) #5

I don’t agree with high TTK being noob friendly, it’s pretty much the opposite. With low TTK it requires consistent aim from the player, something noobs don’t have. So what happens is they can’t kill anyone, and it becomes frustrating. That’s why games like CoD are so massively popular, it doesn’t take much to get kills. High TTK is not attractive to the mainstream audience.

With that said though, the TTK in this game is pretty high already, much much higher than CoD. I feel it’s in a good place, though maybe it is a little too low in regards to headshots. Not sure if they can do much about that though because you want to make headshots rewarding enough that the risk is worth it. Right now it is definitely worth it, and yeah, maybe too worth it.

(ToonBE) #6

I mainly think you get outplayed. If the game goes in open beta more players of equal skill will be playing. Right now the skill level is relatively high… If you were to play against players of your own skill I think you would feel different.

Proxy is a character with low hp and needs some amount of skill to be used well. I suggest you play fragger to learn the game more. 150hp and a strong machine gun + nades.

Have fun;)

(Eox) #7

[quote=“ToonBE;6114”]I mainly think you get outplayed. If the game goes in open beta more players of equal skill will be playing. Right now the skill level is relatively high… If you were to play against players of your own skill I think you would feel different.

Proxy is a character with low hp and needs some amount of skill to be used well. I suggest you play fragger to learn the game more. 150hp and a strong machine gun + nades.

Have fun;)[/quote]

I already tried fragger, it didn’t changed too much, and I also didn’t liked playing him at all. Also, I really don’t think I am that bad.

The fact that I can one shot some characters without even aiming for the head with a shotgun is just more or less that proof of what I am talking about. I don’t think I should get free one shots like that. And it’s also really frustrating when it happens.

I’ll also take the map underground for exemple. When you play as an attacker, and the people in front of you are a bit organized and without an abysmal aim, you just can’t move. You’re trapped at your spawn, and what is killing you is not really shotguns. Maybe it’s a design flaw, but when only seven bullets is enough to kill a 120hp character I really feel like something is wrong.

(neg0ne) #8

i also think TTK is alright.
there is a learning curve - yes, but its not too hard.
of course its annoying to run into battle and get instakilled by a sniper or a cornering shootgunner … but hey, if there where only happy-lovely moments it would be boring. instakills dont happen on a regular basis … if so im doing something wrong.

although i like the idea of sliding.

if playing proxy : nerver stand still. move move move … you have zero health but move faster in compensation. moving is your superpower.

(Eox) #9

[quote=“neg0ne;6125”]i also think TTK is alright.
there is a learning curve - yes, but its not too hard.
of course its annoying to run into battle and get instakilled by a sniper or a cornering shootgunner … but hey, if there where only happy-lovely moments it would be boring. instakills dont happen on a regular basis … if so im doing something wrong.

although i like the idea of sliding.

if playing proxy : never stand still. move move move … you have zero health but move faster in compensation. moving is your superpower.[/quote]

That’s what I am doing. I come from games like Warframe or Xonotic, movement is my middle name. Let’s not focus on my own playstyle, let’s just think in general.

About more movement manoeuvers. That’s just a marvellous way to raise TTK without even touching the guns or mercs stats. If you allow players to dodge bullets (or at least try to) by rolling or sliding, enemies may have an harder time to shoot you, and you may be able to fight back, or escape. It rewards skill without touching the damage basis. And well, just admit that it’s really exciting to play a game with a complete and well implemented movement system. I can’t understand why some player would be against that to be true (the movement system, not raising TTK in general).

(Litego) #10

But even if you did change the movement system, the same issues are still there. You’ll get one shot by shotguns, snipers and mines. You’ll probably live slightly longer against ARs, LMGs and SMGs because they require consistent tracking, but those are not what’s causing frustration here. It’s not harder to hit a sliding player as a shotgunner than it is to hit someone AD spamming. With a shotgun you just need to flick and shoot, so I don’t think extra movement will help you at all here.

(Eox) #11

On the paper maybe, but in game you can perfectly miss a shotgun blow if your opponent decide to dodge or something. Flicking your mouse is not 100% accurate heh. I mean, you don’t magically get an aimbot if you decide to play shotgun and flick your mouse to something. It’ll depend of your skill with it. Actually everything will depend your skill.

I’ll take TF2 as an exemple. Shotguns are really common, yet it’s not because you play with a shotgun that you’ll be able to take out something that straffes like a madcap just by flicking your mouse. You don’t flick your mouse at random and get a kill, skill still matters.

I’ll take another exemple. I used to play a game named S4 League (today it’s a doomed game, don’t try it). It was a game with a complete and kinda crazy movement system with dodges, big ass walljumps and an SP bar. Yet, it was far more easier to use a rapid fire weapon that a shotgun style weapon due to how fast paced the game is.

I really think that an improved movement system won’t only make rapid fire weapon harder to use. Everything will still highly depend of the player. Of course it may not be enough alone. But it’ll matter for sure.

(ToonBE) #12

There seem to be some misunderstanding about “1 shot kills”. They do not exist… Maybe against Aura (80hp) but for other mercs you always need 2 well placed hits with a shotgun to get the kill. Vasili could be an exception. I don’t know how much damage a sniper headshot does. Doesnt happen to me often aswell.

As for the mines. They only insta kill the light charecters like Aura/proxy and other not in this beta test. Def not shyhammer or let alone fragger. They walk out with good amount of hp left.

I am sorry, but I think your own skill is the problem here. If an other players lands you 4 or 5 headshots you are downed. With the high rate of fire in this game that may be kind of fast, but then again those need to be all headshots.

I am sure once there are more players of all possible skill levels and ranked matchmaking the problem of your so called “insta kills” will be gone.

If you don’t like fragger, then try skyhammer. Light mercs are fast, but they have very low hp so you need to be very consistent in your aim and movement.

I also read you do not like the movement system. Again this is I think due to lack of skill. Check out this video. I think it proves the depth and smoothness of the movement system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LJUmnLDpDw

(Eox) #13

I already checked that video two times. I didn’t said that the movement system was not good, just underexploited, and need more mechanics. Also I’ve just finished a game where I managed to do an ace thing and scored around 10k point with alternatively Sawbonez and Proxy. So in short, I managed to be average. And I still find the TTK too low.

Stop taking my own skill level as an argument, this feels borderline insulting (I know you didn’t mean to, but I have a rather strong ego). :confused: Okay I’m not that good, but I am not plain bad either. I respect your opinion about TTK though, but I’ll keep my own.

(ToonBE) #14

[quote=“Eox;6169”]I already checked that video two times. I didn’t said that the movement system was not good, just underexploited, and need more mechanics. Also I’ve just finished a game where I managed to do an ace thing and scored around 10k point with alternatively Sawbonez and Proxy. So in short, I managed to be average. And I still find the TTK too low.

Stop taking my own skill level as an argument, this feels borderline insulting (I know you didn’t mean to, but I have a rather strong ego). :confused: Okay I’m not that good, but I am not plain bad either. I respect your opinion about TTK though, but I’ll keep my own.
[/quote]

Don’t mean to insult you mate;) I am sure you are a skillled player. I played some csgo when db was down and oh boy what a relieve to play dirty bomb the ttk feels like a whole decade by comparison :stuck_out_tongue: So I may be biased.

I wouldnt mind a slower ttk, but is does not bother met tbh. I however disagree with extra movement mechanics like sliding and rolling. They don’t fit the game imo and the environments are not adjusted to it.

(Eox) #15

I’m not that good. But not the worst guy in the world. I’d say I am the kind of gamer who trust in Karma also, and not the very lucky kind of guy.

Well, about the rolling and sliding thing. I really don’t think it would not fit. We’re already able to wall jump, why not sliding after all ? We’re supposed to “play it dirty” right ? Unless it means playing in mud… Or something… Nah definitely not that.

The present maps may not be designed for it, but the next one may have something to exploit sliding or something. Also I guess nothing prevents the dev team from tweaking the current maps.

And yeah, TTK in Counter Strike games is really low. I guess this is this that defines the counter strike series. One shot one kills are usual, and the big strategy is made around the map and things like that. I’m more the a guy from Quake or UT. So I guess it’s also biased from my own point of view.

(waterspoutCrouton) #16

I agree with OP not only because I think the actual shooting part of FPS should be at least as much as the moving but also because it also allows for easier noticing and tweaking of balance problems. And don’t say that just because it is the TTK is higher then COD it is long enough and there are good FPSs with long TTKs that still reward skill and accuracy. Halos 1-3 and Reach (I haven’t played 4) all had a fairly long TTK that still rewarded skill and being the first to strike.

(Kroad) #17

the ttk in this game is low, no doubt about it, especially when a class like fragger is shooting at a low health class like proxy
however, good movement raises it a lot (it’s not even hard, just adad)

a friend sent me this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIX4K5SWfs&feature=youtu.be in order to complain about the ttk i was getting on him, yet you can see that he was running in straight lines both times he died.

It’s very easy to hit every single shot on people running in straight lines. You have a proxy avatar, so I’ll assume you play proxy. You have a small hitbox and the best movement in the game so make use of it. Walljump as much as possible, adad when you’re out in the open, you’ll find yourself surviving a lot longer.

(Eox) #18

[quote=“Kroad;6211”]the ttk in this game is low, no doubt about it, especially when a class like fragger is shooting at a low health class like proxy
however, good movement raises it a lot (it’s not even hard, just adad)

a friend sent me this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIX4K5SWfs&feature=youtu.be in order to complain about the ttk i was getting on him, yet you can see that he was running in straight lines both times he died.

It’s very easy to hit every single shot on people running in straight lines. You have a proxy avatar, so I’ll assume you play proxy. You have a small hitbox and the best movement in the game so make use of it. Walljump as much as possible, adad when you’re out in the open, you’ll find yourself surviving a lot longer.[/quote]

I already know everything about that. I am really used to fast paced shooters, don’t worry I know how Proxy works.

Don’t question yourself on my own skill level. Don’t base yourself on the fact that I may not be good at this game. Base yourself on your own opinion. If TTK is fine for you, it’s okay. Just say it, argument a bit about why it should stay like that, and it’s perfectly fine. I can totally respect an opinion. Of course I may argue around about it, but that’s okay, we’re discussing.

(Szakalot) #19

I think TTK is overall in a perfect spot.

a) many players don’t know how to dodge. The only time you complain about TTK is when you get killed too fast, people don’t complain when getting fast kills themselves. Dodging makes you live much much longer. There is more to dodging than ADAD, you have to analyze the map and the angles, consider nearby cover you can hide behind. If you run out in the open and try to take two players on from a distance, don’t be surprised if you get killed

b) many weapons are one-shot kills. Fragger’s nades, sniper, shotgun ( i think shotties one-shot 100hp, which I dislike; personally I’d like shotguns only be able to one shot other light mercs).

(bubblesKeyboard) #20

TTK is fine. If you’re proxy you will always die fast comparatively and tbh if you’re smart you will never die with sawbonez because you can run around a corner and heal yourself (if you do this with Aura however go have intercourse with yourself).

Skyhammer has a decent amount of HP and he’s pretty balanced. Its easy for him to kill someone because he has unlimited ammo, larger than average magazines, and therefore more spraying power. He can stand still and kill a medic straight up, but if you’re a medic or proxy you either need to be smart or get headshots (or both)

Fragger has a ridiculous amount of HP and can stand in a doorway and spray down 2-3 people before they die. If you’re a medic or proxy, good luck. If you’re a Skyhammer and know how to bounce around you’ll be fine. With a medic or proxy you need some wits.

Easier said than done, everyone is easy to kill with headshots. Slayer mercs are meant to deal and take heavy damage. If you’re a medic or proxy don’t expect to have a chance going head to head against one. I don’t even know why you would either, it’s not your job. Just run around a corner and lay a prox mine or something. (Unless you’re Aura - then you can put a healing station down and smack a slayer merc in the face)