Could a higher Time To Kill (TTK) be a thing ?

(ToonBE) #41

[quote=“immenseWalnut;6514”]The TTK is far too fast for a game that is supposed to be focused on teamwork and objective play. It is the reason so many players are more focused on TDM instead of playing the objectives. Most of these players would walk away with very few kills if the element of surprise wasn’t so advantageous.

I doubt it will change however, the fact the game is F2P means it is targeted at the low skill majority, and they are well known for walking away from games that don’t make it stupidly easy for them to get kills.

If the TTK stays as it is, then this game has already failed as a teamwork/objective game. In all the matches I played over the weekend, only one of them was actually any good, with both teams focusing on playing the objectives instead of just randomly killing. There is a reason so many players leave in the middle of a match, it is because their teammates are morons that are running around looking for kills instead of trying to win the match.

The game also has practically no future in its current state as a competitive e-sport, because the highest skilled players will kill each other ridiculously quickly, so winning the match will revolve around wiping the other team (TDM), then tackling the objectives while they have some breathing space. That gets really boring to play, and is even more boring to watch.[/quote]

Not really

(ToonBE) #42

[quote=“immenseWalnut;6514”]The TTK is far too fast for a game that is supposed to be focused on teamwork and objective play. It is the reason so many players are more focused on TDM instead of playing the objectives. Most of these players would walk away with very few kills if the element of surprise wasn’t so advantageous.

I doubt it will change however, the fact the game is F2P means it is targeted at the low skill majority, and they are well known for walking away from games that don’t make it stupidly easy for them to get kills.

If the TTK stays as it is, then this game has already failed as a teamwork/objective game. In all the matches I played over the weekend, only one of them was actually any good, with both teams focusing on playing the objectives instead of just randomly killing. There is a reason so many players leave in the middle of a match, it is because their teammates are morons that are running around looking for kills instead of trying to win the match.

The game also has practically no future in its current state as a competitive e-sport, because the highest skilled players will kill each other ridiculously quickly, so winning the match will revolve around wiping the other team (TDM), then tackling the objectives while they have some breathing space. That gets really boring to play, and is even more boring to watch.[/quote]

Not really

(Szakalot) #43

you don’t see much teamwork cause people play for a day or two.

As usual peeps forget that teamwork is 50% will and 50% skill. The more you play the more important the skill factor is.

You can’t just decide to work as a team, you have to know how to. Obviously people play TDM cause thats what they know from other games. Couple weeks of gameplay and people would throw ammo at spawn, revive without cue, support each other and setup crossfires.

TTK isn’t lower at higher levels, if anything its higher; because people know how to dodge headshots.

(Eox) #44

[quote=“immenseWalnut;6514”]The TTK is far too fast for a game that is supposed to be focused on teamwork and objective play. It is the reason so many players are more focused on TDM instead of playing the objectives. Most of these players would walk away with very few kills if the element of surprise wasn’t so advantageous.

I doubt it will change however, the fact the game is F2P means it is targeted at the low skill majority, and they are well known for walking away from games that don’t make it stupidly easy for them to get kills.

If the TTK stays as it is, then this game has already failed as a teamwork/objective game. In all the matches I played over the weekend, only one of them was actually any good, with both teams focusing on playing the objectives instead of just randomly killing. There is a reason so many players leave in the middle of a match, it is because their teammates are morons that are running around looking for kills instead of trying to win the match.

The game also has practically no future in its current state as a competitive e-sport, because the highest skilled players will kill each other ridiculously quickly, so winning the match will revolve around wiping the other team (TDM), then tackling the objectives while they have some breathing space. That gets really boring to play, and is even more boring to watch.[/quote]

I didn’t though that the game fell in TDM during the two closed beta weekends. I’m for a higher TTK, but so far, following what I saw in game, players in general tried to play the objectives more or less nicely.

I am not really sure if competition in this game will be boring to play/watch in this current state… But for sure it could be much more attractive with improved movement mechanics in my opinion. And once again higher TTK may be nice for this game too.

No future ? I don’t think so. Players doing TDM atm ? I didn’t noticed that at all. Yet I persist with a slightly higher TTK being for the good.

(neg0ne) #45

I dont think that lowering the TTK would bring more Teamplay.

With “low” TTK ( i dont think its low) you need even MORE teamplay than with higher TTK.

And Szakalot made a good point here: teamplay comes when ppl get more into the game.

(immenseWalnut) #46

Competitive matches are more fun to play/watch when tactics are far more valuable for winning the match than straight up killing is. Despite what Szakalot says about dodging, the movement in this game is nowhere near as fast as it is in Quake or UT, and the weapons are accurate enough when hip firing to headshot players on the other side of the map (I’ve landed plenty of headshots with Aura’s pistol against players that are at far range and killed them).

The fastest moving mercs are the only ones that stand a chance against pro level aimers, and the fast TTK means the best tactic is always going to be ‘wipe other team > complete objective’, no matter which mercs are used, which abilities are available, which map is played etc.

If a competitive scene develops, it will be dominated first and foremost by the most skilled aimers, because gunplay/aiming is FAR superior to tactics or abilities. Other teams wont stand a chance, when they are defending they will be overrun and slaughtered, and the first half of the match will end quickly. Then when they are attacking, they will be running into a meat grinder and dying again and again with no chance of using tactics, map knowledge or abilities to offset the difference in aiming skill. That will be frustrating for them to play, and boring for the rest of us to watch.

Even matches with the very best teams facing each other will be boring to watch, because players will still die far too quickly, and once one goes down, the other team has the advantage. The only type of match that might be fun to watch is two decent and balanced teams going head to head (which would mean a league rather than a tournament), as they will miss more often, allowing tactics to play a larger role (which is more entertaining than watching people shoot at each other). Quake/UT isn’t fun to watch because of the accuracy of the players, it is the timing/map control that makes it entertaining to watch.

(Nail) #47

judging a game by a small matchmaking test, prolly not a great idea
deciding how a game will develop without actually experiencing the game with all mercs, prolly really stupid, but pontificate, it’s amusing

btw, headshots win, you might want to practice

(immenseWalnut) #48

Right, because the quality of matches is really going to improve when the game is opened up to F2P casuals.

And I can land headshots just fine. I suspect most players are happy with a fast TTK because there are so many noobs using ADS (useless vs hip firing), not moving very well, playing with too high a sensitivity setting and not disabling the many forms of mouse input lag/smoothing/acceleration that comes with any UE3 game, improving graphics to play with 120 Hz+ etc.

If you really think different mercs with different abilities will change the fact that skilled aiming is far superior, then I suspect you have never played against a comp level player (or maybe you have, and assumed they were hacking :wink: )

(Nail) #49

did you miss the part about headshots, normal folk would understand that means aiming, and I’ve been face raged by the best, never thought they were hacking except @potty
<3

(Szakalot) #50

Aim will remain a vital skill to succeed, however many abilities are extremely powerful. Nades, sticky bombs, grenade launcher, molotov & health station positioning all give an edge to a team that has a good composition and knows how to put it into practice on a particular map.

So I don’t really see how just because aim is important, suddenly nothing else matters. I can understand that this is the impression you get from seeing 8v8 pubs where everyone is just bumrushing the opponent; but from the few 6v6 gathers I’ve played I can definitely say that the team going together and knowing how to pin the enemy down wipes the floor.

(immenseWalnut) #51

What exactly are you trying to say? Heashots are easy to land once you remove the mouse issues, as hip firing is far too accurate, even at range. And if I can land headshots easily, even against moving targets, then a top end pro aimer will have no problems.

Like I said, the movement in this game isn’t as fast as it is in Quake or UT, landing headshots is much easier. I suspect most of the players that like the TTK as it is would quickly change their minds if they went up against pro level players in every match. But considering that most players are noobs that move and aim badly, everyone is happy as they get more kills with a fast TTK.

(Nail) #52

I believe you are complaining about things that are irrelevant at this time, the devs are testing some individual parts of the game service

(Shackahn) #53

Alongside the aiming I think the movement plays a big part in some issues people feel they are having. I stuck a couple of friends in the beta over the weekend and they couldn’t handle the pace nor the shooting mechanics.

Most players will be coming from CoD or BF and will only have those as their reference. For those of us lucky enough to play Wolf:ET, Dirty bomb. Feels very similar. I feel a lot of the comments on this thread are non issues that will be resolved with a sustained period of play and as other have said full access to all the mercs.

As the game is free to play you have nothing to lose by revisiting the game upon release and seeing how you feel about it

(immenseWalnut) #54

[quote=“Szakalot;6597”]Aim will remain a vital skill to succeed, however many abilities are extremely powerful. Nades, sticky bombs, grenade launcher, molotov & health station positioning all give an edge to a team that has a good composition and knows how to put it into practice on a particular map.

So I don’t really see how just because aim is important, suddenly nothing else matters. I can understand that this is the impression you get from seeing 8v8 pubs where everyone is just bumrushing the opponent; but from the few 6v6 gathers I’ve played I can definitely say that the team going together and knowing how to pin the enemy down wipes the floor.[/quote]

That is the impression I get from regularly playing against players in games that require more aiming skill than DB does. The fastest moving mercs are obviously the hardest to hit, but it isn’t that difficult to anyone that regularly plays arena shooters (a game type that often has a small playerbase due to the high skill floor). Some of the best players I have played against can easily land headshots against fast and erratically moving targets, they would have little trouble killing multiple players quickly in DB, especially against anyone playing the slower moving mercs.

If movement speed was reduced, but the TTK increased by a good margin, it would lower the skill floor enough that more players would enjoy the game as aiming would be easier (bad players mostly, but it would increase the playerbase substantially) and it would negate the aiming skill of the highest level players (they would only see a small increase in accuracy, but other players would see a much larger increase). That would open up the game more so that tactics, map knowledge, abilities, teamwork etc. became more important than raw aiming skill. Especially if ability damage was the same equivalent as it is now. Right now, if you can aim accurately, the abilities make little difference, it is easy to get out of the way of or counter artillery, air strikes, grenades, mines etc but not so easy to counter a player with godlike aiming skill.

(B_Montiel) #55

In my opinion, getting the TTK higher won’t improve anything in the balance between good and bad aiming players. It’d even make things worse : in some way, the winner of a duel will have a higher fraction of health left. And therefore it allows him to engage another enemy before thinking of healing himself.

Gameplay wise, Higher or Lower TTK won’t reduce the “sweep then interact with objective” strategy. As the maps are built, that’s the only way you can possibly progress on attack without going lemming (which sometimes work if you’re the only one doing it and good enough at sneaking). Higher TTK would simply make the attack way harder since the defenders have more time to organise def stronger and come from their spawn with more time to react.

TDM players are going TDM because they somehow missed the point of what has to be done in this game. And you see them in pretty much in any objective based games, both on low or high levels. On comp scene, I’ve seen (and also played against) full TDM teams losing their faces in front of enemy teams which have way lower aiming skills but being able to elaborate a proper strategy. Even in games with way stronger punishment if you miss your move/shot. In my opinion, TTK has very little to deal with the fight/objective balance of a game. At the moment, the game is not enough rewarding for objective players, purely in terms of scoring and some maps really needs some adjustements. But that’s another debate, which could also be constructive.

And honestly, it’s by far not an hardcore fps with certified 2-3 shots to kill even for skilled players. Unless your position is bad, you always have time to back off, heal and rethink. I just don’t want an objective game looking like Halo :neutral:

(Litego) #56

Of course the competitive teams will have the most skilled aimers. This is a shooter! That’s just what’s gonna happen regardless of what you do. You can’t just start participating competitively if you don’t have the personal skill level it requires. But once everyone is at that level, then tactics do matter. It’s not like one team will have godlike aimers against a team of average aimers with great tactics. Nah, it’s both teams with godlike aimers and then they play off tactics to win.

And regardless of how much objective gameplay you want, this is still a shooter, and winning the objective means you need to kill the enemy players. Look at CSGO, very popular esports title with extremely low TTK. Would you say that game isn’t tactical? Because I beg to differ. It’s very tactical and very entertaining to watch. Personally I don’t like playing it because it’s too slow, but that’s another matter.

(immenseWalnut) #57

Well, you saw how Jetball developed in Firefall as a result of the game having too much burst damage, the typical tactic was ‘wipe other team > score goal > rinse and repeat’. Even the highest level teams won their matches with that tactic, although they did try and use other tactics to win, nothing else was anywhere near as effective. And it was boring to watch.

Sure, aim should matter, but tactics make a match more entertaining to play and watch. Jetball got really boring very quickly, and I suspect DB will be no different. Even NS2, a game with a lot of scope for tactical play, ended up with pro level commanders focusing on damage/survival upgrades first as the TTK was fast (although in the case of NS2 it needed to be) and their players were very accurate.

I rarely play or watch CS:GO though, I find it a bit too slow as well. Playing UT4 and Toxikk mostly at the minute :smiley:

(Litego) #58

Well my team did practice tactics, but yeah we could just destroy other teams with superior aim. But the thing there is that the scene simply wasn’t big enough. There were big skill gaps between even the top teams. But even with such TDM focused tactics, we did coordinate abilities and focus fired targets.

And another problem with Jetball was the map. It was designed for a much higher game speed. Don’t know if you remember this, but after they released the map they nerfed the player movement speed by like 20% or something. This was a problem because now the distances were too great to travel on an open map like that, it increased the effectiveness of TDM.

Sure, aim should matter, but tactics make a match more entertaining to play and watch. Jetball got really boring very quickly, and I suspect DB will be no different.

I agree, but as the individual skill level of the players become equal, they’ll have to focus on tactics to win. For this to happen the game needs to become popular enough to have a decently sized competitive scene with several top teams on the same skill level.

I rarely play or watch CS:GO though, I find it a bit too slow as well. Playing UT4 and Toxikk mostly at the minute :smiley:

Same here.

(watsyurdeal) #59

I’m gonna chime in here and say that you are you looking at this the wrong way.

First of all, ttk means nothing, cause it’s all math that assumes perfect aim, what about defensive options like movement or equipment? The player’s skill level or mindset? These things have a bigger impact on the game’s feel than the math behind damage and health.

I think the real questions we should be asking is if the ttk is fine, which the general consensus seems to imply yes, is there enough defensive options for the player (aka movement)? Do the instant kills have proper counter play or risk vs reward? These sort of things I don’t think we can answer till the game is fully released. Things that are truly broken or unbalanced are immediately obvious.

(potty1) #60

[quote=“Nail;6587”]did you miss the part about headshots, normal folk would understand that means aiming, and I’ve been face raged by the best, never thought they were hacking except @potty
<3 [/quote]

Oh jeez, I really thought having humanized aim set to 3.5 would cover up my hackingness. I should swap aimbot or stop cheating all together :cold_sweat: