Confused about selecting character


(DarkangelUK) #101

What bearing does that have on your point about a team of snipers o_O Doesn’t matter how many they kill, their class can’t finish the map in ETQW… period. At the risk of repeating myself… a team of any amount of bodytypes can kill, but the class needs to complete the objective. You’re confusing the requirements for completing the map, which isn’t restrictive… your example of snipers is, and again, moot and absolutely nothing to do with the discussion… it was a poor example.

Under no circumstances does a player/team NEED to be able to change bodytype mid game to complete the map… even if they’re all the same. In ETQW a player/team MUST be able to change class if they want to win the map… especially if it’s a team of snipers.


(Senethro) #102

Its largely inevitable. But fixed bodytypes make it worse and remove other players ability to remedy it.


(Senethro) #103

Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. Its not about the CovOps, thats just a familiar analogy, its about how some players make intentionally bad choices forcing other players to cover for them, except they can’t because bodytypes are locked.

Under no circumstances does a player/team NEED to be able to change bodytype mid game to complete the map… even if they’re all the same. In ETQW a player/team MUST be able to change class if they want to win the map… especially if it’s a team of snipers.

You’re still working under the assumption that a bunch of Lights have a chance of beating a squad of HeavyMedics dug in on an indoors objective. That could be like fighting GDF medics with hyperblasters.

Kills complete objectives. I don’t see how lights beat heavies where mobility is limited (or vice versa).


(tokamak) #104

I don’t think so. Players kept switching classes throughout every phase of the game. Sniper this, lemming that, rocket noob the other. Fixing them into one bodytype at least prevents this.


(Senethro) #105

How?

10char


(Crytiqal) #106

[QUOTE=Atavax;250540]if you can switch your bodytypes, you still have to act on the abilities and disabilities of your bodytype.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but whenever a disability comes up and you switch bodytype it defeats that purpose.

Yes, but since you offcourse already know what perks you have on your new bodytype you intend to switch to, and you want to switch to it so you can take advantage of those perks and movement, the skill to overcome disabilties is gone.

(Since you take a bodytype offcourse that has an advantage in the specific situation you intend to switch it for, thus not dealing with the disabilities of the bodytype you had chosen from the start)

Exactly, learn to live with the choices you make, instead of switching bodytype whenever it gets a bit more difficult.

[QUOTE=Atavax;250540]
basically your argument is the game should be less responsive because it takes more skill to adapt to the less responsive nature of the game, instead of the game being more responsive where the characters don’t have such a small window to create actions. basically, do you want to play tic-tac-toe or chess.[/QUOTE]

Correct, I want the PLAYER to be more responsive to the situation he is dealt with. Rather then to switch.

Compared to the chess game, you rather want your opponent to switch it’s pions whenever he opposes you, so that his pion is on the winning hand in every situation?
That would make the game pretty dull, would it not?

Better is to keep the pion you HAVE, and come up with a stratigy.
This makes it more skilled and fun.


(DarkangelUK) #107

[QUOTE=Senethro;250568]Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. Its not about the CovOps, thats just a familiar analogy, its about how some players make intentionally bad choices forcing other players to cover for them, except they can’t because bodytypes are locked.

You’re still working under the assumption that a bunch of Lights have a chance of beating a squad of HeavyMedics dug in on an indoors objective. That could be like fighting GDF medics with hyperblasters.

Kills complete objectives. I don’t see how lights beat heavies where mobility is limited (or vice versa).[/QUOTE]

You don’t see how cos you’ve never played it, there’s travel time to the objective and speed always wins there. Mobility is limited… for the defenders, they’re dug in and easy targets for spam, from what I saw theres always choice of entry and exit… which gives the lights the upper hand of more routes, higher vantage points and quicker routes to the area in question where the lumbering heavies have a limited path… making them predictable and easy to cover with turrets. I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again… I give SD the benefit of the doubt and can more or less certainly say they’ve played out these scenarios of all one type against another, and if 1 type completely outweighs another to such a point where it’s a steamroll, then they didn’t do their job properly.

You’re under the assumption that heavy medics are this completely unstoppable force for some bizarre reason, and well i think you’ve got TF2 on the mind when it comes to heavies. Lights have classes too, they can buff weapons, they can buff health, they can plant turrets and the enemy WILL die.


(DoHo) #108

Going through this thread I can identify and agree with both sides of the argument, so I’m, still on the fence, but there’s one argument really disagreeing with me. It’s the:

“Too bad, deal with it” argument. If a team has a bad make up due to body type “Too bad, deal with it” and if you can’t, that makes you a bad player. I disagree. I don’t think it makes me a bad player if I decide that what’s going on at the moment doesn’t suit the bodytype I am currently using. I don’t think I should have to “deal with it” because I had literally no idea how the make up of the game would turn out. I also don’t think I should have to leave a game just to switch bodytypes and then take the same chances in another match - or the same match and realise my first, or another choice, would again be better.

I do think that there needs to be an option somewhere to allow this. Perhaps tie it to kills, or time, or a set number of respawns, or maybe you have to earn a certain amount of xp per round before being given the option - I don’t know. That said, if it’s balanced I’m sure I’ll have no issues, but at this stage I think I will find it limiting on numerous occasions.


(Atavax) #109

obviously everyone in this thread thinks that whether bodytypes are locked or not will have an effect on how people play, so its absolutely not an entirely separate issue.


(Atavax) #110

people are not going to be standing around doing nothing. if you encounter someone in an open area, and then run away and switch to a different bodytype, chances are that person is no longer going to be there, and then you also have to take into account the time where you are doing absolutely nothing productive when switching between the bodytypes and what you are suggesting is most likely infeasible in the game even if bodytypes are easily interchangeable.

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;250572]
Yes, but since you offcourse already know what perks you have on your new bodytype you intend to switch to, and you want to switch to it so you can take advantage of those perks and movement, the skill to overcome disabilties is gone. [/QUOTE]

warrants same response as the above.

when you switch to a bodytype, you have to deal with the disabilities of that bodytype for the duration you have the bodytype. and because enemies of equal skill as yourself are hard to predict, you are not going to plan ahead and have the perfect bodytype for every encounter, you are going to be forced to compensate for being at a disadvantage.

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;250572]
Correct, I want the PLAYER to be more responsive to the situation he is dealt with. Rather then to switch.[/QUOTE]

you want to limit the range of abilities a player has. you want it so there is going to be an ideal setup that every decent team is going to know and thats going to be the depth of the bodytype system. Every competitive team will always have the exact same bodytypes and the bodytype system will add nothing to the strategy of the game, because there will be no strategy involved, the best makeup will be discovered and thats what everyone will use.

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;250572]
Compared to the chess game, you rather want your opponent to switch it’s pions whenever he opposes you, so that his pion is on the winning hand in every situation?
That would make the game pretty dull, would it not?

Better is to keep the pion you HAVE, and come up with a stratigy.
This makes it more skilled and fun.[/QUOTE]

i dont know what you’re trying to say, I’m assuming “pions” is supposed to be “pawns” but even then i don’t know what you mean by “switch it’s pawns” and “whenever he opposes you” and “on the winning hand”

i compared the relationship between tic-tac-toe and chess to the relationship between a brink with locked bodytypes and brink without locked bodytypes. locked bodytypes is like tic-tac-toe, any adult with a decent understanding of the game will know the best way to start and will start the same way every time, and against another competent opponent, its always a draw, you can’t out play them because the concept is so simple; every decent group is going to know the ideal bodytype layout in brink, won’t vary from it, and you won’t be able to outplay them in the use of bodytypes, for all intensive purposes the game should just have a fine limit to each bodytype that each side can have that adds up to the total number of players on each side. In Chess however, the player is given a huge amount of freedom in what he does, there is no winning set of moves; you need to anticipate your opponents moves and you need to constantly react to his actions. In unlocked bodytypes, your enemies have a wider range of possible actions, which result in a more sophisticated and complex strategies involving bodytypes; where you have to adjust depending on what the other team is doing.


(Nail) #111

changing body types in a match makes no sense at all, changing classes, yes, but size, no way. Remember, you start as medium and UNLOCK light and heavy as you play. There’s consequences for picking a body size, if you want the speed, you lose hitpoints, you want hitpoints, you lose speed and height, therefore I’m sticking medium with a AR w/drum, I’ll kill you all

:penguin:

:wink:


(H0RSE) #112

i compared the relationship between tic-tac-toe and chess to the relationship between a brink with locked bodytypes and brink without locked bodytypes. locked bodytypes is like tic-tac-toe, any adult with a decent understanding of the game will know the best way to start and will start the same way every time, and against another competent opponent, its always a draw, you can’t out play them because the concept is so simple; every decent group is going to know the ideal bodytype layout in brink, won’t vary from it, and you won’t be able to outplay them in the use of bodytypes, for all intensive purposes the game should just have a fine limit to each bodytype that each side can have that adds up to the total number of players on each side. In Chess however, the player is given a huge amount of freedom in what he does, there is no winning set of moves; you need to anticipate your opponents moves and you need to constantly react to his actions. In unlocked bodytypes, your enemies have a wider range of possible actions, which result in a more sophisticated and complex strategies involving bodytypes; where you have to adjust depending on what the other team is doing.

I actually see it the completely opposite way.

Locked bodytypes would be like chess, since you have many different pieces who move differently, (different body types) but the pieces are always the same. You need to use the tools available to you to overcome your opponent.

Unlocked bodytypes would be like tic-tac-toe, since you can move anywhere, as long as your opponent is not there - there are no restrictions. This is why there are so many draws in tic-tac-toe, because both players are able to use the “best” strategy to adapt to any situation.

Which is exactly the point I/we are trying to get across.


(tokamak) #113

[QUOTE=Senethro;250571]How?

10char[/QUOTE]

The would be forced to play through one body regardless of what the stage in the mission would be like.


(Crytiqal) #114

Ok, I will explain the chess thingy again using the word pawns that :< excuse me for my bad english.
I also don’t know chess so maybe I should use something else to clarify my point.

say like pokemon with water vs fire vs earth vs water, lol.

It would stink if you could switch type whenever you see the next objective or obstacle would be an advantage having a different type.
I’d rather see people deal with the disability from the type they choose from the start and develop some skills to overcome the disablities that come with their choice, then to just switch everytime.


(DarkangelUK) #115

I’ll just QFT here… except the last part, total lies!


(Humate) #116

[QUOTE=Nail;250597]changing body types in a match makes no sense at all, changing classes, yes, but size, no way. Remember, you start as medium and UNLOCK light and heavy as you play. There’s consequences for picking a body size, if you want the speed, you lose hitpoints, you want hitpoints, you lose speed and height, therefore I’m sticking medium with a AR w/drum, I’ll kill you all

:penguin:

:wink:[/QUOTE]

Those consequences are still there with unlocked bodytypes.
The moment you select skinny you give up health.
The moment you select heavy you give up speed.

You would have a point IF the people who are in favor of unlocking bodytypes are saying -
“I want to be maxed out in HP, i want to be fast with the ability to smart anywhere i want, and i want access to all guns at the same time.”

But thats not what they are saying.


(tokamak) #117

[QUOTE=Humate;250642]Those consequences are still there with unlocked bodytypes.
The moment you select skinny you give up health.
The moment you select heavy you give up speed.

[/QUOTE]

There’s far less consequences because you’ll always be able to fit the bodytype that suits the situation best.

You would have a point IF the people who are in favor of unlocking bodytypes are saying -
“I want to be maxed out in HP, i want to be fast with the ability to smart anywhere i want, and i want access to all guns at the same time.”

But thats not what they are saying.

He still has the point because now you’re saying “I always want the best body type for any situation”.


(Atavax) #118

[QUOTE=H0RSE;250601]I actually see it the completely opposite way.

Locked bodytypes would be like chess, since you have many different pieces who move differently, (different body types) but the pieces are always the same. You need to use the tools available to you to overcome your opponent.

Unlocked bodytypes would be like tic-tac-toe, since you can move anywhere, as long as your opponent is not there - there are no restrictions. This is why there are so many draws in tic-tac-toe, because both players are able to use the “best” strategy to adapt to any situation.
[/QUOTE]

ok, you said there are so many draws in tic-tac-toe because everyone can use the “best strat” because everyone can move where they want to but in GO every piece is the same, everyone can use what they think is the “best strat” and move whereever isn’t occupied but everyone has such a wide variety of actions that its very rarely a draw, if ever (i’m admittedly not hugely knowledgeable about GO). so obviously your argument that its that both players are able to use the “best strat” to adapt to any situation that causes draws is wrong. its the limited possible moves you can make that make the best strat obvious that causes draws and thats what happens with the lack of changing bodytypes, it gives a very limited amount of bodytype combination throughout the game, one will be discovered as the best and no one will use others and there will be zero strat involved in the classes. every map will be, x of each bodytype and then a specific amount of players go to specific points in the maps with specific class combination to complete specific objectives, and all this is known 2 months before you play that match.


(H0RSE) #119

it gives a very limited amount of bodytype combination throughout the game, one will be discovered as the best and no one will use others and there will be zero strat involved in the classes. every map will be, x of each bodytype and then a specific amount of players go to specific points in the maps with specific class combination to complete specific objectives, and all this is known 2 months before you play that match.

I highly doubt a “best” bodytype will be discovered. You seem to talking more about builds than body types, and even then, I don’t see a “best” being made.

Body type = playstyle. If a “best” body type were to be discovered, it would have to cater to all playstyles, regardless if a player was good or accustomed to it or not. Seeing how different the tactics are between playing a Heavy and Light effectively (and the pros/cons that draw people to play each) along with all the different skill combination and different classes, I simply do not see some magical, “be-all end-all” body type/skill combination emerging.

Speaking strictly on body types, a Medium would be closest to the “best” since it offers a playstyle that both extremes can utilize effectively. But seeing as it is somewhat of the “mediocre” or “safe” choice, I simply don’t see enough people choosing it, even if it was dubbed, “the best.”

Your “best body” philosophy, applies more to competition servers/games, rather than pubs, which doesn’t apply to me (or the majority of the games eventual community.)


(Atavax) #120

[QUOTE=H0RSE;250726]I highly doubt a “best” bodytype will be discovered. You seem to talking more about builds than body types, and even then, I don’t see a “best” being made.

Body type = playstyle. If a “best” body type were to be discovered, it would have to cater to all playstyles, regardless if a player was good or accustomed to it or not. Seeing how different the tactics are between playing a Heavy and Light effectively (and the pros/cons that draw people to play each) along with all the different skill combination and different classes, I simply do not see some magical, “be-all end-all” body type/skill combination emerging.

Speaking strictly on body types, a Medium would be closest to the “best” since it offers a playstyle that both extremes can utilize effectively. But seeing as it is somewhat of the “mediocre” or “safe” choice, I simply don’t see enough people choosing it, even if it was dubbed, “the best.”

Your “best body” philosophy, applies more to competition servers/games, rather than pubs, which doesn’t apply to me (or the majority of the games eventual community.)[/QUOTE]

not a best bodytype, a best set of bodytypes and not necessarily a best set of bodytypes all the time, but there will be a best set of bodytypes for each map and every competitve team will use it unless competitve leagues ban the best, then there will be a best set for each map that isn’t banned and they will all use that.

in your pub playstyle, you might not be concerned with it, and your teamates might not be, but that will just put you at a disadvantage against pub teams that actually know of it and do it.