I’m aware that you can select specific abilities for your character and built your character your way and best for a certain class, which I can see a lot of people doing. I’ve also heard that once you select your character at the beginning of the game, you can’t change it until the next.
So lets set an example here. I make a class for a light operative and built my character around “operative things.” Then I notice, “Hey there are too many operatives on my team” or “No one knows how to be an effective soldier/medic on my team.” I would be kind of hesitant to switch because I’m a light body
So to me it’s kind of a weird feature to not be able to switch body type mid-game. Thoughts?
true, but being able to change bodytype while ingame would be kind of strange imo.
and every bodytype+class combination is a valid one, they’re all usefull though better used in different gamestyles
Your real concern is just bodytypes, you can have an all-round build for each class without any problem.
I think the locked body types are fantastic. Bodytypes only have an impact on the combat, not on the missions themselves. You can’t do an objective without the required class but you can do any objective with any body.
The beauty in the forced bodytypes is that sometimes you will find yourself in situations where your bodytype just doesn’t fit, this means you need to tap your creativity and wing it with just your skill and experience by improvising.
Seriously, how boring would it be if you could just assure yourself that you always had the right body type for the right goal? There’s no skill in choosing the right body type for the right purpose. It will only take a tiny bit of experience. Using the bodytype outside it’s comfort zone however, requires tremendous skill.
Thoughts?
Try hitting search there have been very elaborate and long debates on this.
No, its a bad idea. While class would be a bad analogy, try substituting weapon where Toka writes bodytype. You can do any objective with any weapon but if you couldn’t change weapon then there can be a blind choice which lands you in a bad situation where you have bad weapons for the terrain around an objective, the enemy have the perfect weapons and they also counter yours. Now, on a pub it’ll probably only take one good player on either team to break a stalemate, its still a situation where you can get unfairly screwed ahead of time with no option to change once you discover this. Its fun like random crits are fun in TF2 and the pubheroes saying its “part of the game” or “wacky” and “if you were a good player you would find a way to deal with it” ring just as hollow.
I’ll predict what will happen. Given the XP grinding focus for unlocks, as soon as a team gets in a slightly rough patch then losing players will quit looking for an easier server heightening the imbalance.
[QUOTE=Senethro;249387]No, its a bad idea. While class would be a bad analogy, try substituting weapon where Toka writes bodytype. You can do any objective with any weapon but if you couldn’t change weapon then there can be a blind choice which lands you in a bad situation where you have bad weapons for the terrain around an objective, the enemy have the perfect weapons and they also counter yours. Now, on a pub it’ll probably only take one good player on either team to break a stalemate, its still a situation where you can get unfairly screwed ahead of time with no option to change once you discover this. Its fun like random crits are fun in TF2 and the pubheroes saying its “part of the game” or “wacky” and “if you were a good player you would find a way to deal with it” ring just as hollow.
I’ll predict what will happen. Given the XP grinding focus for unlocks, as soon as a team gets in a slightly rough patch then losing players will quit looking for an easier server heightening the imbalance.[/QUOTE]
but changing bodytype has a much bigger impact that weapons, and choosing a bodytype determines how you will be playing ,just like the choice of abilities will determine how you will be playing. guns have a smaller impact but should be more easily swapped to adjust to the situation. if you can’t switch guns ingame, then who would pick a shotgun? there’s bound to be an area on every map where they lose much of their use
In your example the enemy is just as likely to end up with the weapons they don’t prefer as you are. Secondly, body-types do not ‘counter’ each other.
I’ll predict what will happen. Given the XP grinding focus for unlocks, as soon as a team gets in a slightly rough patch then losing players will quit looking for an easier server heightening the imbalance.
[QUOTE=tokamak;249378]Your real concern is just bodytypes, you can have an all-round build for each class without any problem.
I think the locked body types are fantastic. Bodytypes only have an impact on the combat, not on the missions themselves. You can’t do an objective without the required class but you can do any objective with any body.
The beauty in the forced bodytypes is that sometimes you will find yourself in situations where your bodytype just doesn’t fit, this means you need to tap your creativity and wing it with just your skill and experience by improvising.
Seriously, how boring would it be if you could just assure yourself that you always had the right body type for the right goal? There’s no skill in choosing the right body type for the right purpose. It will only take a tiny bit of experience. Using the bodytype outside it’s comfort zone however, requires tremendous skill.
Try hitting search there have been very elaborate and long debates on this.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how boring it would be to excel at a certain class rather than having to go to something you’re not completely good at. You talk about the “Right purpose” but what exactly is that? You choose your class based on what needs to be done and your playstyle, so why choose something that you’re not currently well at? I’m pretty sure people choose a class because they do well it it, especially in a team-based game. Sure you can experiment and learn all the tricks and tactics of other classes along the way but you will definitely have a class that you don’t do as well as the others in so you don’t play as it much.
Also mind linking to the discussion? I’m up for a read.
Yes. This is a bad thing, [insert cliche about 2 negatives not making a positive]. When I play on a random-crits-enabled server on TF2 I hate it when I kill a player with a crit. I’ve just been handed a meaningless unfair kill by a random number generator. It wasn’t deserved, it wasn’t fair, it is meaningless and cheapened.
I don’t want to be on a team that is doomed to lose or one that can sleepwalk to victory because players can’t change their style of play.
Bodytypes will counter each other in some situations. Heavies will dominate flat open spaces with little cover, lights will be favoured in more complex multi-level environments which offer skirmishing opportunities.
This is a complete non sequitor
If you’re trying to maximise XP gain (and many players are to the detriment of teamplay) then once you’ve arrived in a situation where you’re countered hopelessly you should quit and change server. Hell, even without XP gain then stacked teams on teambased FPS cause a perpetual bleed of players on the losing side which can result in a perpetual disadvantage of 2 players for one team.
Why is it a non sequitur when I’m illustrating what I see as the least desirable outcome of being locked into certain roles in such a manner that can screw you over?
[QUOTE=TiN TiN;249394]I don’t see how boring it would be to excel at a certain class rather than having to go to something you’re not completely good at. You talk about the “Right purpose” but what exactly is that? You choose your class based on what needs to be done and your playstyle, so why choose something that you’re not currently well at? I’m pretty sure people choose a class because they do well it it, especially in a team-based game. Sure you can experiment and learn all the tricks and tactics of other classes along the way but you will definitely have a class that you don’t do as well as the others in so you don’t play as it much.
Also mind linking to the discussion? I’m up for a read.[/QUOTE]
You keep talking about classes but classes are changeable on the fly so I don’t really see the problem.
[QUOTE=Senethro;249398]Bodytypes will counter each other in some situations. Heavies will dominate flat open spaces with little cover, lights will be favoured in more complex multi-level environments which offer skirmishing opportunities.
[/QUOTE]
See, here you add an extra factor to the balance. Of course specific body-types are better in certain situations. It’s up to the player to make sure he finds himself in the right situations and if he doesn’t, to play the cards he’s been dealt anyway. Everyone will come across such situations, light and heavy probably more often than medium bodytypes but that’s the price of specialising.
Hell, even without XP gain then stacked teams on teambased FPS cause a perpetual bleed of players on the losing side which can result in a perpetual disadvantage of 2 players for one team.
You can have stacked teams even without the premise that locked bodies mean a determined outcome.
It’s up to the player to make sure he finds himself in the right situations
Except there are objectives which require the player to be in certain positions. Availability of choice will be dependent on the map designers.
and if he doesn’t, to play the cards he’s been dealt anyway.
i.e. lose
Everyone will come across such situations, light and heavy probably more often than medium bodytypes but that’s the price of specialising.
i.e. lose
You can have stacked teams even without the premise that locked bodies mean a determined outcome.
Stacks get worse, they don’t get better. Its better to have less causes of stacking so it has less chance of beginning.
Lets just have a look at your two arguments here. The first is that as long as a bad feature happens to everyone equally, it is acceptable and the second is as long as there are other bad features this particular one can be ignored.
Well it’s more combination of classes and body types. While you can change classes on the fly you can’t with body types so it makes some weird which was what I was talking about .And thanks but first link isn’t valid.
Oh I’m sorry dear, maybe you should write your whole post the first time instead of editing all your content in after I’ve made a sarcastic response to what looked like a lazy one-liner.
Fortunately for you, I quoted your content after I saw it.
These countless factors are under the control of players. Responses are available. Body type is not just a big factor, it is the biggest factor. It controls health, mobility, weapon loadout and your “mana” (ugh). There is also no response available when you have the wrong one.
You’ve evidenced a good understanding of statistics in the past so while a match is going to be a very chaotic system, surely you can see that having the largest factor being the one most prone to random effects is just asking for trouble.
There is an additional advantage to enabling in-game choice of bodytypes. The problems I’ve outlined can be largely avoided by making the bodytypes more similar to each other. If balance problems arise then this is an easy and not too controversial balancing option. However, if players can switch away from bodytypes that are “wrong” for the current situation, you can have greater variation between the bodytypes.
Body type is not just a big factor, it is the biggest factor. It controls health, mobility, weapon loadout and your “mana” (ugh). There is also no response available when you have the wrong one.
When exactly is it the “wrong one?” How often do you see this happening (if ever)? Body types are their to cater to one’s playstyle - People who choose to play a certain body type, are primarily going to be players that excel at that type of playstyle. I don’t see it becoming a common practice for players to deliberately choose the “wrong one,” (body type they aren’t that good at) especially when they discover it can’t be changed mid-match.
If a player is good at utilizing a particular body type, then they are good no matter what situation arises - It’s as simple as that. The chances of an “extreme” situation arising (like all heavies vs all lights) is slim to none, and even in those instances, it still comes down to player skill that determines the winner. You seem to only be viewing these situations from one side - the loosing or “underpowered” side - as if players will always only be on one side of these situations. You win some, you lose some, sometimes you get a really good team and absolutely kill it - this is how it will play out for most people in all games, not just Brink.
Look at it like you said - replace bodytype with weapons. If you choose weapons for the job that didn’t work out - well, better luck next time. It adds a sense of conviction to choice you make, which add much more to the game as a whole.
If players could swap bodytypes when they pleased, what’s the point of having them? Why not just eliminate the hassle of having to swap them around, and just make everyone the same, optimal bodytype.
Body types are not the biggest factor, classes are. A class can be an absolute requirement to complete an objective while body types do not. The challenge in the body types is to exploit their strengths and mitigate their weakness, this is entirely up to the player and is in no way as determined as you make it out to be. You don’t lose because you’ve got the wrong body type, you lose because you don’t play the body type in the right way.
while a match is going to be a very chaotic system, surely you can see that having the largest factor being the one most prone to random effects is just asking for trouble.
I think Sen wants to see bodytypes be gone altogether. But yeah, there’s no skill in picking the right bodytype while already knowing the situation, that’s would just be a trivial handling.
Read my earlier posts. Some environments favour some bodytypes. Objectives force routes upon you so you can’t always be in one that is favourable for you. The “wrong” one will probably change 3 times a map but if 6 of the attacking team are the wrong one and 6 of the defending team are the “right” one at any of the stages, then that can lead to problems.
If a player is good at utilizing a particular body type, then they are good no matter what situation arises - It’s as simple as that.
This is a nice myth, very positive thinking and empowering. I’ve not found it to be true.
The chances of an “extreme” situation arising (like all heavies vs all lights) is slim to none, and even in those instances, it still comes down to player skill that determines the winner. You seem to only be viewing these situations from one side - the loosing or “underpowered” side - as if players will always only be on one side of these situations. You win some, you lose some, sometimes you get a really good team and absolutely kill it - this is how it will play out for most people in all games, not just Brink.
You’ve not read one of my earlier posts where I say I dislike randomness whether it causes me to win or lose. You’re also repeating one of Toka’s weaker arguments trying to excuse a bad feature because other bad features exist.
Look at it like you said - replace bodytype with weapons. If you choose weapons for the job that didn’t work out - well, better luck next time.
You’re really not reading and you’re making a dumb argument anyway. Firstly, if you’re picking your character before you login to the game or start matchfinding then your choice is being made blind. It is completely different from a conscious choice to pick the wrong weapon. Secondly if I take your comment straight, I think mistakes should be punished proportionately. It would be very easy to misclick or just make a bad decision at the start of a match and select a bad weapon loadout. Should you be forced to play through the match with the handicap?
It adds a sense of conviction to choice you make, which add much more to the game as a whole.
I’d rather save this for Deus Ex and other single player games, thanks.
If players could swap bodytypes when they pleased, what’s the point of having them? Why not just eliminate the hassle of having to swap them around, and just make everyone the same, optimal bodytype.
You should have suggested this to Valve when they were making TF2!
I dislike making class based analogies but its all I’ve got. Is one ETQW Covert Ops good? Often. Are six Covert Ops good? Very rarely. Are six Covert Ops on an indoors objective worse? I don’t know, I’ve always quit in disgust before that point.
If each objective stage is a question then there will be a variety of right answers. I advocate being able to change your answer if you get negative feedback from it.
[QUOTE=Senethro;249430]I dislike making class based analogies but its all I’ve got. Is one ETQW Covert Ops good? Often. Are six Covert Ops good? Very rarely. Are six Covert Ops on an indoors objective worse? I don’t know, I’ve always quit in disgust before that point.
[/QUOTE]
I think the fact that no covert-ops only team has ever come past the first objective in any match has something to do with that.
I for one can’t wait to see teams comprised of one single body type. That would require creativity to play with as well as against.
