Confused about selecting character

(Senethro) #21

I suppose we’ll have to wait and see on this. I’m quite prepared to believe that SD’s mappers can make it so that no bodytype is “punished” at any objective stage while also preventing the maps feeling boring and samey. I’m not about to bet against Fishbus.

Always bet on Fishbus.

I think Sen wants to see bodytypes be gone altogether. But yeah, there’s no skill in picking the right bodytype while already knowing the situation, that’s would just be a trivial handling.

Aha, now you’ve decided to accuse me of plotting to destroy the game. Let me disabuse you of that then.

I want the different bodytypes to be very different experiences when playing them. Like, the heavy has 500 health and the light 50 type different. Unfortunately, variety is the enemy of balance. So, to ensure variety doesn’t disrupt the game then bodytypes should be mutable, not fixed.

Also, if there is no skill in picking the right bodytype while knowing the situation, where is the skill in picking bodytype blind? Eh? Eh?

(DarkangelUK) #22

I agree with Tok in that case, defeats the point of them if they’re changed on a whim and takes any meaning away from the choice in the beginning.

“Oh the defence that dude has set up is quite tough to get past, I know, rather than actually think my way through it, i’ll just go a heavy dude and barge my way through instead!”

“w00t! I’m through now, back to light I go so I can run fast now… wahey no downsides!”

(tokamak) #23

It wasn’t accusation, the older debates were often about having different body types at all.

What about Starcraft? Three races to pick from, no certainty what you’re going to face whatsoever. The races are enormously different yet this never determines the outcome. It’s always the difference in competence of both players in dealing with the other’s race as well as tactics that determine the outcome.

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;249437]I agree with Tok in that case, defeats the point of them if they’re changed on a whim and takes any meaning away from the choice in the beginning.

“Oh the defence that dude has set up is quite tough to get past, I know, rather than actually think my way through it, i’ll just go a heavy dude and barge my way through instead!”

“w00t! I’m through now, back to light I go so I can run fast now… wahey no downsides!”[/QUOTE]

I think he means being able to change on respawn, but then the same principles still apply albeit to a lesser extend. I always found this to be the weakest points in ET and TF2, the constant delayed response to the feedback you received in the game and trying again the next time. The act of picking the right body to match your plan requires hardly any skill, the act of making a plan based on your given body type and the rest of the situation does require skill.

Also, being able to switch during respawn attaches an advantage to dying in these games. It’s a positive feedback loop for bad players and limiting the good players. Respawn doesn’t do anything for your options in Brink which is a very, very good thing.

(Senethro) #24

You’ve forgotten that players can opt out of maps. I’m sure I wasn’t the only low ranked Protoss player to blacklist large maps with small ramps and safe expansions because of the early turtle Terrans.

By removing fringe situations, balance is served.

(Senethro) #25

Also, if there is no skill in picking the right bodytype while knowing the situation, where is the skill in picking bodytype blind?

Also, being able to switch during respawn attaches an advantage to dying in these games. It’s a positive feedback loop for bad players and limiting the good players. Respawn doesn’t do anything for your options in Brink which is a very, very good thing.

No it isn’t an advantage to die because maps have a time limit, so wasted time as the wrong class is permanently lost. I just happen to believe that mistakes should be punished proportionately.

(H0RSE) #26

Read my earlier posts. Some environments favour some bodytypes. Objectives force routes upon you so you can’t always be in one that is favourable for you. The “wrong” one will probably change 3 times a map but if 6 of the attacking team are the wrong one and 6 of the defending team are the “right” one at any of the stages, then that can lead to problems.

This has more to do with map design than body type. Since we haven’t seen or played all the maps in Brink, saying they will “force” routes on you is just speculation. Regardless if players were forced, player skill still trumps all.

This is a nice myth, very positive thinking and empowering. I’ve not found it to be true.

That doesn’t mean that it isn’t.

You’ve not read one of my earlier posts where I say I dislike randomness whether it causes me to win or lose. You’re also repeating one of Toka’s weaker arguments trying to excuse a bad feature because other bad features exist.

Words like “bad” are opinion words, I thought you knew that.

I’d rather save this for Deus Ex and other single player games, thanks.

Again, your opinion. You’re not doing to good a job of convincing me or proving your point.

I dislike making class based analogies but its all I’ve got. Is one ETQW Covert Ops good? Often. Are six Covert Ops good? Very rarely. Are six Covert Ops on an indoors objective worse? I don’t know, I’ve always quit in disgust before that point.
I don’t get your point…this has to do with classes, which can be changed, not body types.

(DarkangelUK) #27

The skill lies in adapting to the situation and playing with the hand you’ve been dealt, not switching to another bodytype… that’s just a cop-out.

(tokamak) #28

[QUOTE=Senethro;249439]You’ve forgotten that players can opt out of maps. I’m sure I wasn’t the only low ranked Protoss player to blacklist large maps with small ramps and safe expansions because of the early turtle Terrans.

By removing fringe situations, balance is served.[/QUOTE]

Yeah sure granted, but that option is really limited, You can pick 3 maps to opt out from and that’s not even guaranteed. You can compare this option to the upgrades which can be used to offset the specialism your body type offers. As a light body type you can grab more health, and perhaps you can get a speed increase as a heavy.

So granted, blizzard softens a few edges. But the same is going on in Brink if not more.

The principle remains, your match up is random (even more when you play random like I do*) but the game is incredibly balanced regardless.

*The option for a random body and random set up would be a fun addition btw

No it isn’t an advantage to die because maps have a time limit, so wasted time as the wrong class is permanently lost. I just happen to believe that mistakes should be punished proportionately.

I’m not saying it’s always advantageous to die, but there’s always a rewarding aspect to it. The option to reconsider the tools you use is a positive feedback you get for dying (especially if you chose to die on purpose) that surviving players don’t get.

PS my apologies for being a little bitch this afternoon, I had a huge headache.

(Senethro) #29

Its not speculation. If maps have objectives and spawns then there must be routes between them. If bodytypes have different mobility then not all routes will be available to everyone.

That doesn’t mean that it isn’t.

Nuh-uh!

Words like “bad” are opinion words, I thought you knew that.

So you can’t argue the point?

Again, your opinion. You’re not doing to good a job of convincing me or proving your point.

Mistakes should be punished proportionately. Being committed to a choice is fine in a singleplayer game, in multiplayer it can be a mistake and you and your team should not be punished for it for the rest of the match.

I don’t get your point…this has to do with classes, which can be changed, not body types.

You’re being obtuse. I was making an analogy and trying not to make it about TF2 this time. Its reasonable - in ETQW class was the greatest determiner of difference between players, in Brink it will be bodytype.

(Senethro) #30

When did changing your mind become a bad thing?

If you can’t change bodytype, then they’ll have to make sure all bodytypes are similar enough that none are “wrong”.

(Senethro) #31

[QUOTE=tokamak;249445]Yeah sure granted, but that option is really limited, You can pick 3 maps to opt out from and that’s not even guaranteed. You can compare this option to the upgrades which can be used to offset the specialism your body type offers. As a light body type you can grab more health, and perhaps you can get a speed increase as a heavy.

So granted, blizzard softens a few edges. But the same is going on in Brink if not more.

The principle remains, your match up is random (even more when you play random like I do*) but the game is incredibly balanced regardless.[/quote]
Back to “wait and see” I guess. I’m sure there’ll be some way to fix any problems that do arise but I’d kind of hope it doesn’t involve blurring the lines between bodytypes.

I’m not saying it’s always advantageous to die, but there’s always a rewarding aspect to it. The option to reconsider the tools you use is a positive feedback you get for dying (especially if you chose to die on purpose) that surviving players don’t get.

Hmmmm, theres something to this. I wonder if it was intentional on the part of Valve to make classes with irritating instant-kills have hard counters that can be switched to, while sluggers like Soldier who have to work for kills are very generalist.

PS my apologies for being a little bitch this afternoon, I had a huge headache.

Uhhhh, cheers man, no problem. I think this might be the first time someones apologised to me on the internet. I’ll try to remember this next time I’m out of order.

(H0RSE) #32

Its not speculation. If maps have objectives and spawns then there must be routes between them. If bodytypes have different mobility then not all routes will be available to everyone.

There will be different routes, some only accessible to certain body types, but they all lead to the same place, so your argument still isn’t convincing. It’s not like they’re going to hap a map where only a certain body type can get to an objective.

So you can’t argue the point?

I don’t need to. Since I don’t think they are bad features and you do, what’s the point.

Mistakes should be punished proportionately. Being committed to a choice is fine in a singleplayer game, in multiplayer it can be a mistake and you and your team should not be punished for it for the rest of the match.

should not, would not, could not - to each his own.

You’re being obtuse. I was making an analogy and trying not to make it about TF2 this time. Its reasonable - in ETQW class was the greatest determiner of difference between players, in Brink it will be bodytype.

No, it will still be class.

(tokamak) #33

[QUOTE=Senethro;249449]Back to “wait and see” I guess. I’m sure there’ll be some way to fix any problems that do arise but I’d kind of hope it doesn’t involve blurring the lines between bodytypes.
[/QUOTE]

Yes converging differences is the cheapest and lousiest way to balance. The fear of bodytypes determining the outcome as a rock-paper-scissors fashion is also valid. I think TF2 has this way too much. You win or lose based on how your class related to another one. (You killed that engineer as a spy but got torched by the pyro etc). However, this concern is also present should bodytypes not be locked, players would constantly have to flick between bodies in order to stay in the game just like in TF2. At least a locked setting means that SD is forced to keep this stuff balanced (unlocking would be hiding the imbalance to some extend).

(Wraith) #34

[QUOTE=Senethro;249447]Its not speculation. If maps have objectives and spawns then there must be routes between them. If bodytypes have different mobility then not all routes will be available to everyone.

You’re being obtuse. I was making an analogy and trying not to make it about TF2 this time. Its reasonable - in ETQW class was the greatest determiner of difference between players, in Brink it will be bodytype.[/QUOTE]

That is the point of body types.

I think the point is that class will decide what you can do, body type decides how you can do it.

(Senethro) #35

[QUOTE=H0RSE;249452]There will be different routes, some only accessible to certain body types, but they all lead to the same place, so your argument still isn’t convincing. It’s not like they’re going to hap a map where only a certain body type can get to an objective.

I don’t need to. Since I don’t think they are bad features and you do, what’s the point.

should not, would not, could not - to each his own.

No, it will still be class.[/QUOTE]

yeah…well…thats…just like…your opinion maaaaaaan

heydja ever think that maybe brink is properganda from the elites? they control everthing see its “meme priming” so we accept UN decapitation strikes on the US government to rein in US pollution

links to incomprehensible youtube video

(Icemonkeyjr) #36

[QUOTE=tokamak;249378]Your real concern is just bodytypes, you can have an all-round build for each class without any problem.

I think the locked body types are fantastic. Bodytypes only have an impact on the combat, not on the missions themselves. You can’t do an objective without the required class but you can do any objective with any body.

The beauty in the forced bodytypes is that sometimes you will find yourself in situations where your bodytype just doesn’t fit, this means you need to tap your creativity and wing it with just your skill and experience by improvising.

Seriously, how boring would it be if you could just assure yourself that you always had the right body type for the right goal? There’s no skill in choosing the right body type for the right purpose. It will only take a tiny bit of experience. Using the bodytype outside it’s comfort zone however, requires tremendous skill.

Try hitting search there have been very elaborate and long debates on this.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree

(tokamak) #37

…with extravagant fonts.

(brbrbr) #38

i guess its good feature, but not good as default for servers.
ie, IMO its ok to leave it tweakable, but make all limits risen/zeroed by default, like done in QWTA/ProMod.

(Atavax) #39

there are two possibilities: bodytypes will counter each other in certain situations; and bodytypes won’t counter each other in certain situations. The only way bodytypes would add any strategy to the game is if bodytypes will counter one another. If bodytypes counter one another and you can’t change them once you’ve joined the server, then your team stands a good chance of being completely broken without any way to fix it. Making it so bodytypes can’t be changed during the fight does not make it more strategic, it trivializes any strategy that might of been a result of the bodytype system and turns it into a game of chance. it turns the game into “we only have 1 heavy to push the cart through the open area, should just quit now, no way to fix it” it would also mean ugh, there are no heavies on my team and we need one for a certain spot on the map; but i can’t play medium which i love to play for the majority of the map and then switch to heavy for that one time its needed, i have to either play boring heavy the entire map, or just leave the server.

(tokamak) #40

there are two possibilities: bodytypes will counter each other in certain situations; and bodytypes won’t counter each other in certain situations.

The catch lies in ‘certain situation’. This makes it an entirely different affair from the Rock Paper Scissors type of gameplay you suggest. Brink with all it’s ‘stuff’ makes for a vast variety of different situations in which each body-type will respond differently to. The skill will lie in seeking the situations that fit your bodytype best or at least cover your weakness in situations your bodytype doesn’t fit.

Yes at some points you will end up in a situation where the bodytypes decided the outcome, however it was up to you to make sure you seeked or avoided that situation.

Locking them does anything but trivialise the tactics, it is the picking the right body-type to the situation that is truly trivial, nothing but a challenge to new players.