Confused about selecting character

(pooledmana) #41

My take on this is that Brink is a FPS with RPG and action game elements. You get to create several characters and level them to 20. Players select a body type of their preference. I don’t see why they would restrict a player from having two or more characters with differing body types. Fully being able to select a helpful character for a match/round…etc…

Through the course gain 20 abilities (1ability/level) of your choice from a selection of 50. This is normal for an RPG. I think the strategy here is just selecting skills that are helpful for one class or make a hybrid for interchangeability for two classes (i.e. skills for soldier and engineer). Or three or dilute to jack of all trades.

Most FPS are simple like CoD with three abilities.

Weapons selection will probably be dependent on body type. Something like heavy body - with an option for gatling guns but light body with sub machine guns, assault rifles and other generic weapons.

Body type… The game seems mission-oriented, with several side missions. Whatever side mission a player chooses to go on will probably be one suited to body type and abilities the player has selected. While overall working to a primary mission completion. Also body type means how much one can carry as well as agility/HP. Light and medium medics might be more helpful than a heavy medic when team members are scattered over a map.

I think the producers want to get away from traditional FPS multiplay of simple deathmatch or capture the flag and evolve them to more compelling gameplay.

(Laneljh) #42

[QUOTE=Senethro;249402]Sounds like you’re arguing my side here.

Except there are objectives which require the player to be in certain positions. Availability of choice will be dependent on the map designers.

i.e. lose

i.e. lose

Stacks get worse, they don’t get better. Its better to have less causes of stacking so it has less chance of beginning.

Lets just have a look at your two arguments here. The first is that as long as a bad feature happens to everyone equally, it is acceptable and the second is as long as there are other bad features this particular one can be ignored.

How weak is that?[/QUOTE]

What makes you think that the price of specializing would be losing?
I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure I could hold my own in a game regardless of
body type. If say, 7/8 of your team is lights and the other 7/8 of the other team is heavies, you can still win. Each has it’s advantage. Lights can easily eliminate a heavy due to their agility. A heavy can just do and deal a lot of damage. Depending on the PLAYER, each is evenly matched against the other in my opinion.

(Atavax) #43

[QUOTE=tokamak;250071]The catch lies in ‘certain situation’. This makes it an entirely different affair from the Rock Paper Scissors type of gameplay you suggest. Brink with all it’s ‘stuff’ makes for a vast variety of different situations in which each body-type will respond differently to. The skill will lie in seeking the situations that fit your bodytype best or at least cover your weakness in situations your bodytype doesn’t fit.

Yes at some points you will end up in a situation where the bodytypes decided the outcome, however it was up to you to make sure you seeked or avoided that situation.

Locking them does anything but trivialise the tactics, it is the picking the right body-type to the situation that is truly trivial, nothing but a challenge to new players.[/QUOTE]

i don’t think i suggested anywhere that there would be rock paper scissors type mechanic. my argument is that on maps there will be objectives that need to be completed such as the pushing of a cart through an open area that may be exponentially more difficult for a team to accomplish if they don’t have anyone of a specific bodytype in their team or even not enough of a specific bodytype on your team, to the point where they lose to any team of remotely comparable skill because of it. If you win the map by getting the cart to the end of a path, you can’t avoid pushing it to the end while winning.

(madoule) #44

i disagree. following your logic, team are likely to have a hard time to win a map due to body type selection. lets stick with your ideal example here: team A are lights only team B is heavy only.
since its a time based objective to push the cart from here to there they will…
-either have to find a different tactic than purely confrontation OR
-they have a really hard time to make progress, and maybe will lose

BUT following your logic: team A (lights) have to have an advantage of a similar dimension somewhere else, right? so in the long run, each side (heavy / light) is balanced. (presumming SD’s done great work here)

(Humate) #45

Senethro made some interesting points.
I definitely feel its bit risky locking them.

(Atavax) #46

[QUOTE=madoule;250099]i disagree. following your logic, team are likely to have a hard time to win a map due to body type selection. lets stick with your ideal example here: team A are lights only team B is heavy only.
since its a time based objective to push the cart from here to there they will…
-either have to find a different tactic than purely confrontation OR
-they have a really hard time to make progress, and maybe will lose

BUT following your logic: team A (lights) have to have an advantage of a similar dimension somewhere else, right? so in the long run, each side (heavy / light) is balanced. (presumming SD’s done great work here)[/QUOTE]

from my experiance in objective based games, teams typically loose pushcart maps because they can’t progress through a certain point and not because they did not progress fast enough on a earlier part of the map to get to give them enough time on another part of it. if there is a part of the map where heavies have a significant advantage, it is unlikely a solely light team would be able to progress through the area against a equally skilled solely heavy team regardless of how quickly they have progressed through previous areas.

(Atavax) #47

also, its not like even if you are able to switch bodytype at the same places you switch class that you’d never be at a position where your bodytype is disadvantaged. There is still the strategy of trying to fight where your bodytype is at an advantage and to avoid fighting where your bodytype is at a disadvantage. It just wouldn’t automatically doom teams at the beginning of the round to lose the entire round because they have a poorly balanced group of bodytypes for that map in particular.

(brbrbr) #48

ie, both agree, thats such stuff must become turned off in Brink “from box” ?
this can be used by some server admins, especially for clanwars or cybersport purposes, along with TV broadcasting and ingame VideoConferencing support, but become “default” features ? IMO, its bad idea.
let the society tweak gameplay upon needs. not by opressing/slaving gamers by hardcoded limitations.

(tokamak) #49

That’s just strategy at the most basic level, not interesting at all. True strategy is playing the cards you’re dealt and make the best of what you’ve got.

Teams will only be doomed if they don’t know how to handle their combination of bodies.

(Hyperplutonium) #50

In my honest opinion and after playing it, its better to have locked in character builds because otherwise it would provide a unfair advantage. Granted that if there is a bunch of lights with Smg’s against a team full of Heavy’s with mini-guns then the lights are going to get slaughtered but think of it as this, who would want a heavy infiltrator? or a Heavy medic? I mean if I was to play a medic I would go medium because they can take more hits and can run faster than a Heavy where with a Infiltrator I will want to be able to hack into the enemy’s computers as fast as possible so light is the way forward… Do you guys follow?

(Atavax) #51

so you are basically saying that bodytypes shouldn’t be changeable because if there were, certain class bodytype combinations would never be used? it seems like that would just be poor balancing on SD’s side if that were the case.

(Atavax) #52

[QUOTE=tokamak;250256]That’s just strategy at the most basic level, not interesting at all. True strategy is playing the cards you’re dealt and make the best of what you’ve got.

Teams will only be doomed if they don’t know how to handle their combination of bodies.[/QUOTE]

first of all, you are not going to be able to predict everything that happens, and you are absolutely going to have to play where your bodytype is at a disadvantage even if you can change bodytypes. You have basically stated that the strategy in locking bodytypes is playing where you are at an advantage, i have pointed out, that exists with unlocked bodytypes, in addition to that strategy, theres the additional strategy of when if at all to change your bodytype. I fail to see any strategy that solely exists with locked bodytypes.

also, wouldn’t your argument be true with classes too… you are in favor of being able to change classes right? and you have said that classes are the most important factor and thats why you need to be able to change them; or something to that degree, correct? So how does the slightly less effect on gameplay that bodytypes have over classes make bodytypes not necessary to be changeable in game, while classes must be changeable in game?

(tokamak) #53

If you’ve got one locked bodytype it means you need to plan all your customisation accordingly. It means you can’t shift roles later on. You will only be able excel within a certain range and that’s where you’re going to have to prepare for.

And yes, you can’t predict everything, but the moment you can’t go back is where there will be distinguished between decent players and excellent players who manage to improvise and set events to their hand in a way that will fit their role the best.

It’s this friction between your ideal environment and the actual environment at hand that needs to be bridged, and it should take more skill to do that than just the general idea of which bodytype applies best for the current situation.

also, wouldn’t your argument be true with classes too… you are in favor of being able to change classes right? and you have said that classes are the most important factor and thats why you need to be able to change them; or something to that degree, correct? So how does the slightly less effect on gameplay that bodytypes have over classes make bodytypes not necessary to be changeable in game, while classes must be changeable in game?

Bodytypes are not slightely less important than classes, they’re infinitely less important than classes. It’s a binary thing, you need the right class to complete the objective or you won’t get anywhere. That’s the big difference. And note that Brink is way more lenient in selecting your class/gear than past ET games, or even shooters in general. Instead of having to respawn you can just change on the fly. This extreme flexibillity is nice in one way, but it would take away consequences to your choices away altogether. There wouldn’t be any path-dependency in the game at all which would result in very whimsical play. Players would have to keep adapting to each other in order to maintain an upper hand.

Bodytypes put an end to that. Pushing each player in a specialism means that the roles are fixed and that they’ll have to act accordingly whether the situation is favouring them or not.

(Senethro) #54

This is wrong.

Instead of having to respawn you can just change on the fly.

And conveniently, this is why.

All players are at most 20 seconds away from changing class yet unable to change bodytype in game.

(Atavax) #55

[QUOTE=tokamak;250334]If you’ve got one locked bodytype it means you need to plan all your customisation accordingly. It means you can’t shift roles later on. You will only be able excel within a certain range and that’s where you’re going to have to prepare for.

And yes, you can’t predict everything, but the moment you can’t go back is where there will be distinguished between decent players and excellent players who manage to improvise and set events to their hand in a way that will fit their role the best.

It’s this friction between your ideal environment and the actual environment at hand that needs to be bridged, and it should take more skill to do that than just the general idea of which bodytype applies best for the current situation.[/QUOTE]

whether you have a locked bodytype or not, you need to plan all your customization ahead of time. Yes, being able to switch bodytypes will mean that you will be able to switch bodytypes, but you are significantly hurting yourself and good players will minimize the amount of times they change classes. In tf2 for example, everyone new to the game is bound to switch their class when they meet an obstacle for their class. Once they become good at the game, they learn how to overcome those obstacles as their favorite class, even when they are at a disadvantage. The best players in this game will undoubtedly find ways to overcome obstables to their favorite bodytypes without changing bodytypes, but that isn’t a reason to prevent people from changing bodytype. keeping bad players from changing isn’t going to magically turn them into good players, its going to make them leave the server.

[QUOTE=tokamak;250334]
Bodytypes are not slightely less important than classes, they’re infinitely less important than classes. It’s a binary thing, you need the right class to complete the objective or you won’t get anywhere. That’s the big difference. And note that Brink is way more lenient in selecting your class/gear than past ET games, or even shooters in general. Instead of having to respawn you can just change on the fly. This extreme flexibillity is nice in one way, but it would take away consequences to your choices away altogether. There wouldn’t be any path-dependency in the game at all which would result in very whimsical play. Players would have to keep adapting to each other in order to maintain an upper hand.

Bodytypes put an end to that. Pushing each player in a specialism means that the roles are fixed and that they’ll have to act accordingly whether the situation is favouring them or not.[/QUOTE]

there is a main objective, brink does not need to be designed where you need a specific class to complete and objective that must be done in order for the main objective to be completed. People will have to keep adapting to each other whether bodytypes are fixed or not. There will be improvision and i don’t see how whether or not that improvision includes the ability to change body types or not would make the game any more whimsical to play. Players should always have to keep adapting to each other, players should never have a single strategy to win.

(DarkangelUK) #56

[QUOTE=Senethro;250341]
All players are at most 20 seconds away from changing class yet unable to change bodytype in game.[/QUOTE]

It’s great, innit! :smiley:

(tokamak) #57

Which has got to be the lamest thing about the entire game. There’s no skill in picking the right class in TF2, anyone with a decent amount of knowledge can do that. TF2 really is just a very elaborate form of rock paper and scissors, slightly mutable by cognitive skills.

The best players in this game will undoubtedly find ways to overcome obstables to their favorite bodytypes without changing bodytypes, but that isn’t a reason to prevent people from changing bodytype. keeping bad players from changing isn’t going to magically turn them into good players, its going to make them leave the server.

There’s a reason everyone will start out as a medium guy. It’s a point I haven’t raised much either; if you’re afraid of finding yourself in a disadvantage at some point in the game, then why not take the medium bodytype? Just play safe! You won’t find yourself in major disadvantages neither will you find yourself in major advantages. It seems to be exactly what you want.

(Yeti94) #58

It seems like everybody is forgetting the huge new SMART system.

The “lights” will almost always have a high ground or flanking advantage against the “heavies” while the have more firepower.

Sticking with the tf2 comparison, the scout has the ability to pick and choose if it whats to fight in almost every fight, and is designed NOT to get in to a direct fight but to go behind the enemy lines and catch the enemy team with their pants down as they run out of spawn, run away, and then go back. I see scouts kill heavies all the time, and when the scout is good, it really doesn’t matter how good the heavy is if he can’t spin up before being killed.

When there is a push the cart type of objective in tf2 a team of heavies murder a team of scouts, but that is part of the design of the game which is not what SD seems to be going for.

Anyway, a scout is comparable to a light infiltrator in brink and maybe to a light soldier, but not really to the combination of other classes with a light body type.

The medic class is what really balances the game out i bet. Medics allow there to be continuous harassment behind the lines while in the main fight people that the enemy team thought died suddenly pop up and continue to fight.

at lower levels of gameplay a team of heavy body types might slaughter a team of light bodies. but as players learn the maps and how to use the skills of the different classes I bet the lights with their speed become equal to the heavies with there guns.

(tokamak) #59

Anyway, a scout is comparable to a light infiltrator in brink and maybe to a light soldier, but not really to the combination of other classes with a light body type.

A light sniper with infinite ammo, a very fast medic, an engineer that can put up turrets at the most impossible places.

Playing a heavy will require tremendous skill as well, it’s the most unforgiving bodytype as there’s no way to correct yourself once you find yourself in the wrong place.

(Yeti94) #60

[QUOTE=tokamak;250387]A light sniper with infinite ammo, a very fast medic, an engineer that can put up turrets at the most impossible places.

Playing a heavy will require tremendous skill as well, it’s the most unforgiving bodytype as there’s no way to correct yourself once you find yourself in the wrong place.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the light bodytype can carry a sniper. I’m not positive though. If a turret can shoot you then you can shoot the turret.

I agree about needing skill to play as a heavy and making your way out of a bad situation is what separates out the good and great.

Creating situations where you will win instead of just looking for them is what separates out good from great light bodies. Whichever team has the better player is going to create/get out of more situations and that team is going to win.

At high levels of play, where everyone on both teams are skilled and know the maps, the better team of players is going to win regardless of bodytype.