Concerns/Solutions: a.k.a What we *DON'T* want in ET:QW.


(Giskard1708) #1

Been playing casually for a long time now, and although I was excited when I heard ET would be getting a sequel, it wasn’t long before I started to worry that the transition between RTCW and Quake intellectual properties might not change the game for the better. Listed here are some of the concerns I have, and some possible solutions. its just constructive criticism. No one wants this game to kick ass more than me.

Concern 0: Give me rocket-grenades or give me death!

Just thought I’d get this little one out of the way. If this game doesn’t have a rocket grenade weapon extremely similar in use and balancing to the K43 and Garand FOR BOTH TEAMS, I’ll be too pissed to buy it. In my opinion, the only thing that beats the death from above aspect of the K43’s rifle grenade is missing with the 'nade and then pumping them full of holes. =) :smiley:

Quick Solution:

Rifle Grenades.

Concern 1: Changes to general weapon balancing and its effects on gameplay

Quake and Wolfenstein have completely different gameplay types. Quake is a quick run and gun multiplayer game where 2 seconds of firefight with the wrong weapon can mean the difference between being at megahealth to being a rapidly-expanding cloud of meaty gibs. The WWII era weapons and slower-overall character movement speeds of ET make for longer, more interesting, and ultimately more tactically significant battles. Sure you can still instagib a couple of enemies if you really have a need, but in ET it will cost you your limited ammo and powerbar resources (i.e. Panzerfaust and Rifle-grenades.) :drink: Here’s to hoping that ET won’t devolve into a 1-rocket-per-second, trick-jumping gib-fest. That’s for Quake proper. This is ET.

Quick Solution:

Keep the spirit of RTCW:ET’s weapon balancing. And rifle-grenades.

Concern 2: Team Assymetry and possible unbalancing effects

My immediate reaction to learning that the GDF and Strogg forces would have differing class was to think that it was totally freaking sweet. Then I thought to myself, “Uh oh, this could seriously unbalance the game.” An off-hand example is the Strogg ability to have a rolling spawn-point – as is my understanding, this is essentially the Strogg medic’s ability to spawn his teammates directly into the body of a fallen enemy. Anyone who has played ET knows that this would be an indispensible ability. Have your medic spawn another medic. Have those medics fight and spawn additional medics from the dead soldiers. You’d basically have a rolling health/rez factory. Or maybe have a team of medics storm a base and then spawn a team of engineers right next to a destructible objective. This is the totally freaking sweet part. Medics that are actually dangerous.

But on the other hand, so far there has been no mention of a corresponding GDF ability. There has to be something they haven’t announced yet; maybe a quick class-swap feature between GDF teammates. But if it turns out there isn’t, then you can see how the GDF could be overmatched. If I could spawn whenever my Strogg teammate ganks somebody, I can’t see how I would want to be one of the human classes that had to wait for the spawn timer to tick down.

That’s just an example given with what little information we actually have about the class abilities right now. Basically the concern is that if we have wildly varying special abilities and weapons between teams, we’ll either end up with an unbalanced massacre or on the otherhand a game like Starcraft where the balancing is such that you are basically running with Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Quick Solution:

Um, pay the game designers more?

Concern 3: Weapons across teams

Like concern 2. If each team doesn’t have the opportunity to use the exact same weapons, like in RTCW:ET, they should be extremely similar. (Heh, especially if you are spawning into other people’s bodies.)

Quick Solution:

Weapons that fire essentially the same way accross teams but have differing cosmetics, ammo and powerbar requirements. And Rifle Grenades.

Concern 4: Unholy Air Supremacy

I HATE AIR UNITS. If you’ve played Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, or even Halo 2, you know that if you see something big in the air you run the @#$% away. Hopefully it will be better in ET since its not a race to X kills, but still, these things should be limited be fuel, maneuverability (i.e. inability to hover), or some other damn thing. An even better solution would be an AVRIL type weapon or an anti-air grenade that will take these buttwipes out. :bash:

Quick Solution: Simple, common, effective anti-air tactics, like a homing anti-air grenade. Make Anti-air rifle grenades an Engineer specialty maybe. =)

Concern 5: Too Big Maps

If it shouldn’t take any longer than 30 seconds to get from a spawnpoint to the action. Otherwise there’ll be teamkilling to get into the vehicles and I’ll be one of the TKers. I read an interview once with the developers of Halo 2 who said that that game’s gigantic increase in map size over its predecessor wouldnt be a problem because now there were more vehicles. What a bunch of crap. On certain maps in that game you have to pretend you’re playing a car-battling game just to have fun. Either that or snipe, which brings me to my next concern.

Quick Solution:
More, better, closer spawnpoints
Also, rifle-grenades.

Concern 6: Snipers

Yes, yes I know. Its a perfectly valid play style. Unfortunately it has got to be the most frustrating and least-fun way to die. I’ve had more fun being killed to death jumping over barbed wire. Balancing the sniper weapons somehow with a counter doesn’t entirely fix the problem. Its still maddening to watch your life tick away with no means to fight back, or repeatedly walking out of spawn and getting head-shotted. Hopefully the first part can be fixed by the railgun’s signature trail, but if there are other sniper weapons as is likely, then I envision hairpulling in my near future. As for instant-kill headshots, cripes, if the GDF hasn’t invented some kind of force-field shielding device to prevent these, then they all deserve to be Stroggified.

Quick Solution:
Headshots knock you prone in addition to normal damage.
Radar? Maybe?
Use rifle grenades to take out dem pesky snipers.

Concern 7: Won’t be newbie friendly

Our college has a GameDev Club, and every quarter we hold a LAN event. ET is always the main attraction for club members, as we can sit down and play as a team. However, it is really difficult to get non-members interested in the game. Apparently people would rather dwell in their Counterstrike-centered universes and not learn a new game because it is just too hard. The game needs to be easy to learn, difficult to master. Recent announcements show that we’re going in the right direction, with proper mission briefings at the start of each mission. We can do one better though. My suggestion is a beginner HUD that shows up when the player has low XP. This HUD would be non-invasive, but still provide helpful hints such as important key-bindings and maybe explicit heads-up directions so they dont get hopelessly lost on the map. Objectives could be labeled ala Halo 2 multiplayer.

Quick Solutions:
Beginner HUD
On-screen labelled objectives
Radar
Individually assigned newbie missions (Already announced)
Rifle Grenades are easy to learn, tough to master. :beatdeadhorse:

Heh. Ok that seems to be all for now. I’d love some responses to these as well as thoughts on what other people want the developers to try and avoid.


(Giskard1708) #2

http://www.totalquakewars.com/game/classes/

Oh god. The human engineer doesn’t seem to get rifle grenades. I hope for humanity’s sake that this information is false.


(kamikazee) #3

I can be short: don’t worry about it.

If you want the long answer, read on.

Concern 0: engineer gets grenade launcher for his assault riffle. (Don’t know about strogg, sorry)

Concern 1: this is not Quake, it’s ET:Quake Wars.

Concern 2: At first I worried about the “make spawn” ability, but then Mordenkainen brought the chargebar to my attention again. Making a spawn will probably use all it’s chargebar.
Apart from that feature: GDF might be able to class-swap at their Mobilce Command Center. (Needs checking)
And after all, the teams do not seem as assymetric as has been told. They have their differences, but you can see similarities as well.

Concern 3: Said before, teams should not have massive overpowering weapons.

Concern 4: Looking at the movies, airborne vehicles look quite “hooverish”. Read: a nice target for a well-aimed rocket.

Concern 5: it’s said you can reach everything wether on foot or by vehicle. That probably means that it it won’t take too long to get somewhere.

Concern 6: in W:ET, snipers were a laugh compared to RTcW snipers. Medics could protect you from insta-kills, so I guess it’s still in ET:QW.

Concern 7: it’s said that some objective markers will be used. In the movies, you can see a large diamond hovering in the sky which is supposed to be such a marker. Add the command map and the limbo menu, and newbies should have no reason to complain. (Of course, most are too lazy to read, just yell “RTFT”)

And about your last post: they forgot to mention that he can choose between the shotgun OR the N80 Assault Rifle with a grenade launcher addon. I would look to another site as well.


(Fab) #4

If, or even when the game needs patched it should be thouroughly tested maybe through some sort of public testing. We don’t want to get into a situation where the patches need patched cough BF2. One classic incident was when the first patch was released it was a proper screw up and EA actually advised people to reinstall the game and revert to the original, i mean WTF.


(kamikazee) #5

And most of all:

[

](http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&p=144787#144787)


(Giskard1708) #6

I can’t we get more detailed information. I was looking at the site I posted above, and just from the looks of it, the Strogg have some pretty nasty looking airborne vehicles. Hope it isnt a sign of my Air supremacy concern heh.

I’m glad to hear that the powerbar is making a comeback. That is doubeplusgood.

Rifle Grenades kick ass. I hope they don’t get changed too terribly much.


(Apocalypse) #7

Maybe you can pay $99999999999 to commission your own game… :disgust:

Adapt and overcome. Asymmetrical games can be balanced, and once balanced, it will be a great game. Like Starcraft.

As for your obsession with RG. Come on, am sure there would be new and other fun weapons to play with.

Don’t get me wrong, am an almost full-time engr in ET, but to ‘make’ developers suit ur ideals of a MUST-HAVE weapon like RG is quite ridiculous.

No flames, just arguments. :moo:

Edit: Like said, maybe you can reserve the whine and bitch until the game is out. And run in into the ground like BF2…


(Fab) #8

The game could still be 6 months from being released, Any information you read now could and probably will change. We will have to wait for the demo to find out if the aircraft are overpowered and untill then we really have nothing concrete to go on.


(Schizma) #9

Headshots knock you prone in addition to normal damage

Wow, that would be stupid. That takes away from people who want to be snipers, there are ways to beat a sniper (smoke grenades, if they have them, or just normal nades, Rocket launchers, other snipers.) unless your stupid enough to just run out into the open. If people are good enough to get headshots with a sniper then they deserve the kill. Thats like saying if you get hit by a rocket launcher it should knock you back a couple of feet and do normal damage. I dont care what planet your from, if you get shot in the head with a sniper rifle, you should die.


buy herbalaire


(Giskard1708) #10

First it was a suggestion. Second, it isn’t stupid at all. Snipers are the least fun part of any game. Instead of being able to engage someone in a firefight, they arbitrarily pick me off from a distance. I’m essentially taken out of the game. Its a frustration. I have no choice because I have minimal ability to defend myself against the enemy I can’t see. I’m just saying they should find a way to make it less frustrating.


(Giskard1708) #11

Does anybody know if the Engineer’s Dynamite is going to be making a return? It seemed to sound like they are handing that off to a different class.


(Schizma) #12

First it was a suggestion. Second, it isn’t stupid at all. Snipers are the least fun part of any game. Instead of being able to engage someone in a firefight, they arbitrarily pick me off from a distance. I’m essentially taken out of the game. Its a frustration. I have no choice because I have minimal ability to defend myself against the enemy I can’t see. I’m just saying they should find a way to make it less frustrating.

I know it was a suggestion, I was just saying why that shouldnt be. Loads of people like to play FPS games and be the sniper for the team, it just has a certain cool factor. Your just saying its frustrating to die, well of course it is. The whole point of the sniper class is to take out the enemy infantry, and essentially take them out of the game. Just like lots of other things in the game, you have minimal ability to defend yourself against vehicles if your on foot, (unless your a Anti-Armor class) and you have minimal ability to defend yourself against artillery also. It makes the game more intense if you know when your in the open you can get sniped at anytime, just makes it more exciting. And they have already said some classes will get a assault rifle with a grenade launcher, so you can stop worrying about your rifle grenades lol.


Honda GL1500


(SniperSteve) #13

This is SD. You concern too much :slight_smile:

TIP: Read allot of the reviews.

-The weapons will be balanced via allot of gametest time.
-The aircraft will have limited hovor abilities/or will not want to hovor due to handheald AA weponry. They also will not be able to fly high into the sky due to the automatic kill zone. (I think its like some radar system that locks onto you, and will blow you up if you dont reduce height…)
-The Strog medic will most likely not be able to revive teammates, while the GDF one will.


(SubstandardJones) #14

[quote=“Giskard1708”]

First it was a suggestion. Second, it isn’t stupid at all. Snipers are the least fun part of any game. Instead of being able to engage someone in a firefight, they arbitrarily pick me off from a distance. I’m essentially taken out of the game. Its a frustration. I have no choice because I have minimal ability to defend myself against the enemy I can’t see. I’m just saying they should find a way to make it less frustrating.[/quote]

Perhaps we can make it where a grenade to the face doesn’t so much blow you up as it causes soothing reed music to play softly in your speakers, followed by soft and fluffy clouds to float across your screen.

If you’re getting shot at by snipers, don’t go darting out in the open in sniper territory. That’s what smoke grenades, cover, artillery, anti-sniping and medics are for. If a sniper is good enough to headshot you, you should be dead. Sniping is so far down on my list of things I find frustrating in ET that I can’t imagine it would ever come up.

Also: RIFLE GRENADES? Am I really going to have to put up with more dummards twitching their way to just as many teamkills as actual kills with this “weapon?” Rifle grenades are pretty much good for one thing: identifying which teammates I’m avoiding like the plague.

RandomDummard goes trotting around the corner with his rifle grenade all primed and ready when all of a sudden - OH NO! A Spider!

BLAM!

Oops. RandomDummard has teamkilled two of his teammates and managed to blow himself up. Hooray for rifle grenades.

Rifle grenades are a child’s weapon. You are not cool because you twitched at the right time and managed to accidentally blow up the guy you weren’t really aiming at in the first place.

The only way I’d welcome them is if they had a preset charge-timer like regular grenades. The current ET version of rifle-grenades are majorly flawed, however. The few people who actually bother to use it with any skill (as opposed to the thousands who like to delude themselves into thinking they’re great with them) usually realize they do much better with a thompson or mp40 anyway. It’s only RandomDummard who thinks he’s the greatest player alive because he manages to fire in a vague direction and not get a teamkill every once in a while.

Rifle Grenades: No thank you.

(I will have a bit of shotgun, however. Ah. Delicious.)


(jjpron) #15

what the fsck is this discussion about?


(Giskard1708) #16

Rifle Grenades are not a child’s weapon, to use them effectively you have to know what you are doing. The beauty of the K43 is not just that it has the stopping power of the grenade, but also that it’s a high accuracy weapon for close firefights. Put me face to face with an MP40 or a Thompson and I can take them 9 times out of ten. And if you are complaining about newbie teamkills, you should be focussing your anger on the flamethrower.


(Svanire) #17

QW is not WolfET.


(ouroboro) #18

I don’t think you understand what “ET” is. ET is a gameplay concept. It has nothing to do with either the Wolfenstein or the Quake universes. The first installment of ET was incorporated into the Wolfenstein universe, the forthcoming installment will take place in the Quake universe. “Enemy Territory” could be incorporated into any existing universe, or even an entirely new one. Disregarding licensing issues, and just for the sake of illustration, there could theoretically be a “Doom: Enemy Territory” or an “Enemy Territory: Half Life” or “Enemy Territory: PacMan Wars,” etc.

Get it?


(AnarchyAngel) #19

Giskard I cant belive you hold splash damage in so low regard that you belive that they dont know what game they are making. Secondly you sound like a little whingy 13 yr old. I want this I want that I dont want this. All this tells me and im sure it tells others that you have NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER about Game design. Hows about you go play Wolf ET. If you actually bothered to go read info on QWs you learn that everything you asked has already been address. Searching google with “Quake Wars FAQ” returned numerous hits. I have just one Question, how old are you?

Edit: and incase you cant use google heres a link to a good one:

http://wolfgaming.net/vB/faq.php?s=bba573b9429ed56fabe93ba79946a69a&faq=new_faq_item#faq_qw_faq_item1


(kamikazee) #20

Please don’t go personal here. There are loads of threads where the poster could have known all his answers if he did enough research, so this is just another one. :wink: