Community Question: Create a Class

(Humate) #121

They may not be able to heal themselves

Sniper / Scoped Assault / GPMG / Rocket vs Tech with no way to heal up = dead tech, which means less revives for traditional medics. Also means everyone would open with nades, similar to the way Brink plays.

I don’t particularly agree with is that in a team based game a medic can play a game for 20 mins without once considering helping his team or require help from his team.

They are helping their team by preventing their team-mates from being killed, and controlling areas in which their team-mates can use. Their value comes in longevity which is different from say the hyper, which is about max dmg in a short time frame.

But lets look at from your viewpoint of class actions.
*Sniper on hill
*FieldOPs with scope on hill + unlimited ammo
*Titan/Desie on hill driven by an engie
*Engie in flyer

A player can spend 20 minutes doing all those things and beast in safety.
None of them are required to attend to other team-mates with class actions.

(.Chris.) #122

[QUOTE=BioSnark;408383]edit:@medic balance discussion:
Alternatively, the medic role could be remixed a bit to give other classes a less inferior class role.

[ul]
[li]The first half of the current health bar is “body armor” and is repaired by engineers when damage is taken. Perhaps this is more effective against light weapons and partially bypassed or weaker against explosives and heavy caliber infantry weapons so as to be differentiated. Soldiers and fops could have more armor than other classes.[/li][li]As I have already suggested, forward spawning is done by fops.[/li][/ul][/QUOTE]

Interesting idea, not too dissimilar to Brink, though hopefully done without buffs :slight_smile:

(BioSnark) #123

The thing I don’t like about buffs is that they bring values over the default levels. That damages my enjoyment of entering into a balanced engagement with an opponent. Maybe that’s coming from a Unreal Tourny background. That’s also what I don’t like about etqw upgrades.

@humate: I approve of that list of things that wouldn’t exist in vanilla ETQW if I were designing it.

(DarkangelUK) #124

What annoyed me about buffs was being forced into a little buff orgy at the start of every spawn, else you’d be at a disadvantage if the enemy team did the same thing and you didn’t.

I think me and you want the same thing BioSnark… RtCW!

(tokamak) #125

Wolfenstein also had an ammo and health orgy at the start.

(.Chris.) #126

When I play as a class other than medic and come across those weapons I somehow survive, if I take damage I find a medic or supply crates and heal up.

All that would still be possible though, through teamwork, again I’m not wanting to make the medic totally useless in combat. A lot of rambo medics on pubs are just trying to get as many kills as possible, they’re not interested in preventing the enemy reaching the objective and as such they still do and when they do the players who are actually playing suffer because the players with best combat prowess are else where playing deathmatch.

[QUOTE=Humate;408389]But lets look at from your viewpoint of class actions.
*Sniper on hill
*FieldOPs with scope on hill + unlimited ammo
*Titan/Desie on hill driven by an engie
*Engie in flyer

A player can spend 20 minutes doing all those things and beast in safety.
None of them are required to attend to other team-mates with class actions.[/QUOTE]

None of them should exist in an ideal world either.

Edit: You’re all posting too fast :frowning:

(DarkangelUK) #127

Agreed it was there, but to a less intrusive and time consuming extent. FOPS and meds lobbed them at their feet on their travels for others to walk over if they wanted, again on their travels. Brink required you to hunt the person down or partake in a Benny Hill sketch and stab them at close quarters, or everyone stand around each other and play stabby mcstabby.

(Humate) #128

When I play as a class other than medic and come across those weapons I somehow survive, if I take damage I find a medic or supply crates and heal up.

Im sure there are plenty of instances where medics survive. :slight_smile:
But in my experience [not that it means much] it usually means dead medic.

A lot of rambo medics on pubs are just trying to get as many kills as possible, they’re not interested in preventing the enemy reaching the objective and as such they still do and when they do the players who are actually playing suffer because the players with best combat prowess are else where playing deathmatch.

The only real way to max out a kill count, other than killing the same AFK player 80 times in spawn with a buddy reviving him /cough… is to go where the traffic is, which is usually around the objective. That said, while the intention to max out a kill count isnt exactly posterboy material for team-play in most circles, the end result equates to helping the team in most scenarios.

None of them should exist in an ideal world either.

Possibly, but i just wanted to point out that its not really a rambo medic problem or a balance issue… the other classes have their perks as well. :slight_smile:

(BioSnark) #129

If that was your point, engineer in heavy vehicle is the only one with remotely comparable gameplay influence.

(Humate) #130

Its actually easier to get 80+ kills with acc lac and scope assault than it is to rambo med.
At least on maps like Valley/Outskirts/Sewer/Canyon/Quarry/Island etc

Scoping forces rambo meds to either turn into pack whores… or play the counters

I cant comment on vehicles, I was an inf only player.

(tokamak) #131

I think Brink´s issue, as it was indeed annoying, would be to just let the game give everyone the free buff from the classes they spawned together with. Give it some xp, don´t detract pips and that would make all of it less of a chore. It would also be very mild counterbalance in the way that large respawns would be more profitable, which is great as a large respawn means the team has suffered a massacre.

I think that’s a mechanic that can be used in future games as well.

(BioSnark) #132

What does that add versus not having the buffs at all? I don’t understand the appeal of non-time limited buffs.

@Humate: With the exception of certain initial objectives and infantry maps, there are quite a lot of counters to everything except a great flier, outdoors.

(tokamak) #133

What that adds is that it makes buffs only relevant in combat. Both W:ET and Brink have this stupid spawn ritual for certain classes. I’d say W:ET is worse as it compelled players to be completely useless and just stand in the spawn dealing out supplies. It’s an artefact emerging from well-intended mechanics giving a perverse incentive to do stuff that either isn’t fun or just downright detrimental to the gameplay.

Making the entire ritual completely automatic and free at the start solves these shenanigans entirely while still keeping the value of in-combat buffs. Now you may have a problem with buffs entirely but that’s not what this small point was about.

(DarkangelUK) #134

How do you think that would affect the mind game at the beginning of the spawn when you’re under timed pressure? There are points in the game where you have to be somewhere as quick as you can, could be to defuse a dyno or to finish activating one you laid down but got killed mid arm. The player then has to make a choice, hang around for extra health/ammo to help you survive the encounter better but risk not getting there in time, or head straight to the action point but have lower health/ammo. Do you think it removes a layer of tactics that way? I didn’t mind RtCW (and to a point ET) as people just threw them packs at their feet as they ran and others just ran over them, Brink required the up close and personal routine for it to work.

(BioSnark) #135

@tokamak: Yes, but what does that add versus simply having everyone start out at the maximum statistical values without changing those maximum values around with buffs?

(Humate) #136

@Humate: With the exception of certain initial objectives and infantry maps, there are quite a lot of counters to everything except a great flier, outdoors.

Exactly. For me the entire game is about forcing a class distribution the opposing team doesnt want to play.

(tokamak) #137

That would remove the need to meet players in the field who are still lacking the buff. The only thing this removes is the trivial ritual at the start.

@DAUK People don’t stand around and wait for buffs, they just spam it while they’re running towards the objective. There’s no cost in time or anything just a cost in doing something really boring.

(Humate) #138

@tokamak: Yes, but what does that add

^^ It removes one of the many reasons that cause players to disregard the xp system

(tokamak) #139

And we can’t have less reasons to be reactionary to new ideas can we.

(SockDog) #140

On buffs I think I prefer the idea of automatically applying them based on your proximity to other players. This is after all a game that is meant to promote playing as a team so why not encourage people to group together and coordinate in order to reap a benefit. Of course you can’t just grant someone +20 health if they’re within a certain distance of a medic because if you move out of range how do you take that +20 health away? How about instead you grant a +20 auto-regen of health if near a medic?

Of course some classes that are designed to be loners could benefit themselves if they are outside the range of the team, a covert ops could gain camouflage if away from their team or even see such a buff be deteriorated if enough enemies are close by.

As for sub-classes. Tok. It’s an acceptable idea but just not for the games SD has made in the past. Playing single player, deathmatch or even clan games it could probably work well. I see the logic behind that. But for a pub game (which frankly the game has to primarily be) it would fall on it’s arse so many times because you are removing so much to add so little and then multiplying that over every player, the defence of working around it just fails under the mildest scrutiny. Again. Make the game open, give people options and then let the player to decide how and when to invest different styles. If the medic discussion shows anything it’s that there are clearly many ways to play, most of which can be appropriate for different situations. Being a medic who likes to revive rather than shoot and so invests in a heavy armour perk is going to be a **** medic if walking into a room with enemies than need to be shot before reviving anyone. You’re removing realtime choice and tactical effectiveness in the name of an individual strategy, and you know for a team game the strategy needs to work as a team.