@Jostabeere said:
I’m curious why someone who is “3x as good as other people in his matches” still gets queued with the same people in the same bracket.
@Jostabeere said:
@watsyurdeal said:
the system is doing it’s job, the people just do not know how to play properly.How would you play a system properly that automatically queues you with people that should be as good or bad as you are?
If I play bad, the system has to see it and calculate it, and queue me with worse people in the next games.
If I wrecked the people, ended up topscoring by far, I should go into a bracked with people who did the same in their last matches.
There is nothing to play properly here. I play as I can, the game has to care for the balance.
That’s the premise of this gamemode.
That’s how it definitely works for other games. And that#s now it definitely worked for games 10 years ago.
And DBs “matchmaking” doesn’t do that. Yesterday I played against a founder with 2.5K hours. He had triple the score of anyone else. Today I queued in CMM and met him again. He did 3x the points. I’m curious why someone who is “3x as good as other people in his matches” still gets queued with the same people in the same bracket.
Because even in a scenario where the system properly looks at how accurate you are, how much damage you take vs how much you do, your kd, your win to loss ratio, all the stats that matter, and match you as close as possible to people who fit. There’s still the liklihood it’s going to be a roll, how good you are is determined by how well you can bounce back and win, not by complaining in chat about how uneven it is.
That, and if people are wanting to get a match as soon as possible, the system would have to be more lenient, otherwise the wait times would be absolutely INSANE as we have seen in the past.
@watsyurdeal said:
Because even in a scenario where the system properly looks at how accurate you are, how much damage you take vs how much you do, your kd, your win to loss ratio, all the stats that matter, and match you as close as possible to people who fit. There’s still the liklihood it’s going to be a roll, how good you are is determined by how well you can bounce back and win, not by complaining in chat about how uneven it is.That, and if people are wanting to get a match as soon as possible, the system would have to be more lenient, otherwise the wait times would be absolutely INSANE as we have seen in the past.
So you are basically saying that a CMM would work, but doesn’t need to. Which makes it completely redundant.
And if people want a quick queue, they could have left Quickplay. As it was quicker and as imbalanced as CMM. And didn’t separate game modes.
No, I’m saying even when the system works as intended people will complain. That and the more in depth the system is the harder it will be to find matches. So people will complain the balance isn’t good enough, and the que times are long.
It’s a waste of time when they could have done all of these improvements to Ranked instead.
The biggest issue right now with DB is that there are no player separation at all. Removal of min level servers, community servers hard to maintain running (still trying from time to time on our server, but it’s bloody tiring filling it for 20 min every time you try…), CMM which can only base its algorithm on the n last matches you’ve played, lobby scramble not working as intended right now… The list goes on and on, and nothing prevents level 5 getting mowed by 60+ in any particular way.
This whole conversation has gotten a little off-track but I wanted to pop in and set a thing or two straight, I don’t think CMM’s balance is the problem here for me. My personal issue with it is the design and the way it works. It’s just not casual in any sense of the word. Heck, CS:GO feels more casual than CMM and I played a heck of a lot CS:GO back in the day.
I honestly never saw a big enough problem with matchmaking (save for ranked cause that’s actual poop) that needed seriously addressed. But the new way to find matches is just not intuitive, or remotely good to use. That’s my problem, I just hate how the new system works and it takes a lot of the fun out of game for me because it has changed the tone of every match I’ve been in since release.
@watsyurdeal said:
The moment they remove the server browser is when I quit.I am not interested in match making, period, I do not have time to wait 5 mins for the game to find me a match.
Not to mention the dozen or so other problems it has. 
I think the whole premise of an unranked matchmaking system with an algorithm and the word ‘casual’ is incompatible. A casual or quick match is typically one you use a server browser to join instantly even if it’s mid-game, hop on real quick with some buddies, play some unconventional maps for fun, and to practice or dick around without having stats or experience tracked if we’re to compare it to a lot of models in other games. I do like the new UI and overall I think I can see what direction they’re aiming for, but currently it’s counter-intuitive. It feels like they have an identity crisis.
Large 7v7 and 8v8 Objective matches was the casual, go-to modes for quick fun.
Stopwatch - and I’ll argue this 'til I’m dead - has essentially always been ranked practice and a mode for racking in tons of experience. It was and still is more competitive. There are better players in SW and whether or not a lot of them matches result in stomps is irrelevant to me. That’s life. Get over it, adjust, and become a better player. Take the loss and do what you can do.
I disagree with people that say the new casual objective has become too imbalanced. In my experience I have seen more balanced matches as you’d expect from it being a matchmaking system now, but I agree with the sentiment that it no longer resembles a casual environment where you can quickly hop in for a fun game. I don’t personally care because the competitive aspect of DB is the reason why I play, but it’s clear they have some kinks to work out.
Removing Execution sucked. Removing server browsing and limiting the game modes or amount of players sucks. That is my main problem with all of this.
@n-x said:
To all the people who say CMM takes 3-5 mins to find a game. Where are you from (NA?) I play in EU and I don’t think I have ever had to wait much longer than 1 min.
I play in EU and minimum the wait is for 3-4min
The had to remove obj from the server browser in order to make players play obj through CMM. you need to see how it works in order to make it better. I am pretty sure many of you wouldn’t even care to play via CMM if you could play obj also through server browser.
As Nail already stated, I think you have to wait for the next update when we finally don’t see anymore if our enemies yelled for a medic 
I have to say that I like CMM but I can totally understand those who are not fan of the concept. It is just so boring to queue for a game. If I am on the computer I want to click through menus and chose what I play, so I really liked the server browser.
I would just like to make you remember to address a certain problem/issue you have with the game or a feature of the game from another side.
SD pls dont bring CMM to asia and australia
i still want to play obj with server browser
And also leave the moscow servers alone, somehow i still get decent ping on the moscow servers while playing from western europe. So i still can have fun playing 8vs8 obj.
@WatchAsILead said:
@ImSploosh said:
@WatchAsILead said:
The way you word this post you make it seem like CMM ruins the whole game for you:1.) People still leave server browser matches lol, so whether a player leaves in server browser or CMM you’re still screwed for 3-5 minutes waiting for someone to backfill that spot.
2.) Javelin is getting a nerf so cool your jets
3.) CMM will put you in games faster when the player base gets bigger when more people start using it. and even in CSGO or PUBG, a game with 200,000+ Players it still takes 1-2 minutes to get in game
4.) Its considered casual and theres no impact on whether you win or lose. If you dont like the balance of a CMM match you dont have to stay, leave and someone will fill your spot.
5.) Maybe you feel like its a mini ranked match because you’re actually getting pair with people your skill level. So now you feel like you actually have to try instead of pub stomping noobs.
It HAS ruined the game for a lot of people. There’s just too many issues with it and it doesn’t fit DB. We don’t have, and probably never will, a massive playerbase. Also, it’s just not casual. It’s essentially Ranked without rewards. Just because I’m as good as a no-life, tryharding 24/7 dude doesn’t mean I want to play like that all of the time (hence ranked). The casual, fun aspect isn’t there in CMM.
Unfortunately, there’s also other issues with it like having only 6v6 servers, no option to select sub-region (U.S. East or West) which makes it unplayable, and the wait. There’s more, just can’t think of it at the moment. I’d have to play it again lol
But theres no reason why it should ruin the game for anyone. The only reason you feel like CMM is essentially ranked is because you get paired with players that are your skill. What it seems like you want is an all access pass to play with people worse than you so theres no competition, so you can sit at the top of the scoreboard without even trying.
Casual gaming = Easy gaming for you and thats not how it works, nor how it should work. If you want to pub stomp noobs all day then you might as well play with bots or some PVE game.
I think this is the strongest point against the “CMM feels like ranked” argument: it feels that way just because you’re actually playing against good players. Sorry you can’t gratuitously stomp plebs anymore!
There’s a lot of truth here, but there are also some little discussed problems with this kind of perfect MMR balance, should you actually achieve it.
A major part of what makes games rewarding is getting better at them and then seeing your improvement rewarded by the game systems. So this sort of narrow band MM actually has a large cost in that it nullifies or mitigates a major type of reward loop. Roughly, narrow band MM makes in-game performance static.
The games that have decently effective matchmaking are therefore very dependent on a strong ranked system for the skill-reward feedback loop. Overwatch, or CS:GO, or Paladins don’t need to worry as much about whether casual play is rewarding you for getting better, because they have active and to a greater or lesser extent PRESTIGIOUS ranked systems.
Once you have those, the eternal 50/50 matchmaking grind becomes much more bearable: GOOD players start to see ‘casual’ as ‘practice’, with the skill reward derived from ranked, while BAD players just play casual. One thing about being BAD is that games at BAD MMR are generally more fun anyway: they are more dynamic, swingier, there’s the new car smell. BAD players are still strongly engaged in the intrinsic rewards of learning the game systems: learning a genji combo & then doing it feels good. The difference between being NEW and AWFUL and merely being BAD is big enough that the learn-execute-feedback loop is engaged. It’s only fairly GOOD players who are specifically striving for small incremental improvements like 35% vs 30% accuracy, or 2:1 KD vs 1.5:1. BAD players are engaged by obvious feedbacks like: I did my combo, I learned how to ult, I learned how healthpacks worked & used one, etc. GOOD players have mastered all those basic skills, and instead are engaged by the kind of feedbacks you see on the scoreboard or stat sheet. So when a narrow band MMR system makes scoreboard performance invariant to skill, you’ve just disengaged the reward loop for non-new players. At that point, you’re depending on ranked to do most of the skill-reward loop heavy lifting.
Of course the problem with DB is that ranked is barely functional, and even if it WERE functional it wouldn’t be nearly as meaningful just because the game doesn’t have much prestige. Getting top .5% in OW or CS is fun, IN PART, because of how widely understood and appreciated that achievement is. For a variety of reasons, seeing a grandmaster DB player isn’t nearly as meaningful or impressive.
So with that in mind, it will be very hard for GOOD players to ever positively engage with casual as PRACTICE. For most players, casual is just the game, and ranked is a more or less broken and unimportant feature. So in that context an MMR system that was PERFECT, one that successfully paired of top 5% people with exactly top 5% people and so on, makes the game a lot less fun for them. Not just because they aren’t winning as easily as they were before, but also because the game no longer has any reward feedback for incremental improvement. With enough practice the top 5% becomes the top 2%, but if they did that with CMM they would never perceive any real change in their performance. It would be average a 1:1 K/D 50/50 w/l game all the way.
So a strong and PRESTIGIOUS ranked scene is a prerequisite for any game that wants to have narrow band MMR matchmaking as the primary mode of play. Even then, quite a few games have died on this hill. Starcraft 2 had the most prestigious ranked mode in history at the time, but there was no good casual mode to reward player improvement. Most players started the season at gold, ended it at gold, and had a 50/50 W/L all along the way, despite actually getting better. Then starcraft added a completely non ranked mode, but it was still narrow band MMR. The result: turns out no one is actually interested in playing a very close, ultra intense game of starcraft 2 against a player who is exactly as good as them for no rewards again and again and again.
Anyway, there’s definitely some negativity towards CMM that is entirely about not being able to pub stomp. But the ideal of a casual mode that is a ‘totally fair game everytime’ actually has serious weaknesses: it breaks the most important reward loop in games. It’s not a good fit for every game, and where it is successful it is usually because the complement ranked mode rewards are extremely rewarding.
Sometimes I really loathe being a veteran of DB
If I told these forums in October 2015 that people were actually going to complain about the removal of 7v7 and 8v8 anything I would’ve been laughed out of the forums and maybe banned for life
If I told the forums that people would actually complain about Execution being removed, I might’ve been doxxed and killed in my sleep
If I told the forums that CMM would be met with spite and hatred, I would’ve been hacked and DDoS’d into the next century.
It really sucks when everything you’ve been wanting since you began playing this game is just met with unending complaint and bile. Maybe I’m just a geezer shaking my cane yelling “YOU KIDS THESE DAYS” but seriously, back in my day:
Now, every time a new map releases, endless complaint
Every time a new merc releases, endless calls for nerfing
Every new feature, screeching that it sucks
Every time an old universally despised feature is removed, unending threats
All the complaints and letdowns about the game are being removed and tailored to be what we wanted right out of the gates, and all I see are the new people that came in during the horrible lack of content in 2016 complaining that the game is moving away from the garbage it was during that time.
7v7 is the most popular mode because SD removed 6v6 servers, for literally no reason. There was no “6v6 is unpopular so it’s going away.” There was a “we want more full servers so we’re killing a bunch of them.” Before this change, 6v6 servers were ALWAYS full, and 7v7/8v8 servers rarely filled up, if ever.
Execution is gone. It took way too long to get rid of it
Seriously, if you don’t like the game, stop playing. I hope SD continues this trend of removing bad features and releasing new content at the same time. All the people who only play for the crap like 7v7 and 8v8 will leave, and the new players will come in with a fresh perspective and start to love everything the veterans do, except with the added bonus of having all the features we didn’t have.
Then… maybe the atmosphere will change. Maybe we’ll actually get to have a new merc that isn’t made useless in the first month. Maybe we’ll get a map that people won’t just hate on for no reason. Maybe the player base will actually improve.
Y’all are just toxic. If you don’t like what they’re removing, go away. Please.
@bgyoshi your post isn’t responsive and you’re being a fan boy.
Fact is, a lot of people perceive the removal of objective servers as on the whole negative, despite the addition of the party matchmaking system everyone’s been looking for. A lot of people don’t much like CMM relative to prepatch objective. That’s it really.
-No one is defending execution in this thread. ONE person said that removing it isn’t a good way to grow a player base. Not the same thing, and FWIW I don’t agree with him.
-SD pushing 5v5 as the competitive format isn’t responsive or relevant to the thread.
-No one is complaining about the addition of new maps. Some people elsewhere are criticizing Dome 2.0 (not me). So nonresponsive. We don’t owe it to SD to give them positive feedback on X, which we don’t like, just because they added feature Y which is good. That’s just a recipe for worthless feedback. Most everyone agrees the new aggressive content schedule is a huge plus for the game.
-Outside of this thread, people are complaining about Javelin. Because she’s grossly antifun and overtuned. The only reason any experienced player could help but see that is fanboism or Jav “main”. Sry fam.
-6v6 being more popular initially than 7v7 is your only responsive point. I don’t recall that myself, but if that was strongly true it is useful information. Generally, 6v6 feels more intense and try hard in part because of greater individual player contribution. It makes sense that a lot of the negative CMM feedback has to do with that feeling. But it’s also possible that 6v6 is a better and more organically popular mode than 7v7. I kind of doubt it, but it’s possible. So this was a constructive point.
You then spend a few paragraphs telling people to quit the game if they aren’t happy with everything SD is doing.
No u.
@woodchip said:
@bgyoshi your post isn’t responsive and you’re being a fan boy.
Fact: I wasn’t responding to you specifically, don’t feel so self-important.
Fact: I was in fact maintaining a clear line of response to the thread itself, which is (yet another) thread demonizing a new change that SD has implemented at the behest of players that have been asking for it for years. In this response, I outlined other changes that players of old requested and have been waiting for, relating to this one as those changes, too, are only being demonized.
It’s one thing to criticize and offer improvement
It’s another to say “CMM MAKES ME SAD U SUK”
Opinion:
@woodchip said:
Because [Javelin is] grossly antifun and overtuned. The only reason any experienced player could help but see that is fanboism or Jav “main”. Sry fam.
Or experience with actually OP antifun overtuned mercs like 2-nade instagib Fragger or Fletcher or instagib headshot Vassili gives us a frame of reference that new players don’t really have and we know Jav isn’t even close to OP.
Caveat: I don’t main classes with explosives of any kind and I’ve given plenty of Javelin critique, but “OP WAAAAAAHHH” isn’t one.
@bgyoshi said:
@woodchip said:
@bgyoshi your post isn’t responsive and you’re being a fan boy.Fact: I wasn’t responding to you specifically, don’t feel so self-important.
Fact: I was in fact maintaining a clear line of response to the thread itself, which is (yet another) thread demonizing a new change that SD has implemented at the behest of players that have been asking for it for years. In this response, I outlined other changes that players of old requested and have been waiting for, relating to this one as those changes, too, are only being demonized.
It’s one thing to criticize and offer improvement
It’s another to say “CMM MAKES ME SAD U SUK”
Opinion:
@woodchip said:
Because [Javelin is] grossly antifun and overtuned. The only reason any experienced player could help but see that is fanboism or Jav “main”. Sry fam.Or experience with actually OP antifun overtuned mercs like 2-nade instagib Fragger or Fletcher or instagib headshot Vassili gives us a frame of reference that new players don’t really have and we know Jav isn’t even close to OP.
Caveat: I don’t main classes with explosives of any kind and I’ve given plenty of Javelin critique, but “OP WAAAAAAHHH” isn’t one.
Ok, as the OP of this thread, you’re majorly misunderstanding and misinterpreting my post and need to chill. All I’m saying is I’m not a fan of CMM and it kills my personal enjoyment of it. I’m not asking for changes because I know they aren’t going to happen but sharing my opinion. If the forums aren’t a place where I can share my opinion as your posts make it seem like I shouldn’t then what’s even the point of the forums? So please, if you have something to contribute to the conversation besides name-calling and causing arguments then do, otherwise let the rest of us share our civil opinions without complaining, cause if anything you’re the one being toxic.
@hawkeyeguy99 said:
Ok, as the OP of this thread, you’re majorly misunderstanding and misinterpreting my post and need to chill. All I’m saying is I’m not a fan of CMM and it kills my personal enjoyment of it. I’m not asking for changes because I know they aren’t going to happen but sharing my opinion. If the forums aren’t a place where I can share my opinion as your posts make it seem like I shouldn’t then what’s even the point of the forums? So please, if you have something to contribute to the conversation besides name-calling and causing arguments then do, otherwise let the rest of us share our civil opinions without complaining, cause if anything you’re the one being toxic.
I think what he mentions here are very true and would count as valuable contributions
@bgyoshi said:
- Nobody played 7v7 or 8v8 anything. 6v6 was THE MODE for casual play.
- Being unable to party with friends and do some kind of matchmaking was the #1 letdown of the game
- Execution was a barren wasteland and NOBODY spoke positively about it
- SD would not stop forcing 5v5 down everyone’s throat and made it clear that (what was then called) Competitive was the absolute way to play
- New maps were nonexistant and everyone hated that
- New mercs were dope and did not get nerfed into oblivion, with the sole exception of Stoker
Now, every time a new map releases, endless complaint
Every time a new merc releases, endless calls for nerfing
Every new feature, screeching that it sucks
Every time an old universally despised feature is removed, unending threats
@hawkeyeguy99 said:
If the forums aren’t a place where I can share my opinion as your posts make it seem like I shouldn’t then what’s even the point of the forums?
Forums are here to keep the developers in the loop about what we want and a place for people that enjoy the game to match up with each other for organized play.
“I don’t like this feature because x and if you did y that would be helpful.”
“I really wish we had [some feature] what do you guys think?”
“I’m enjoying x but we could change y to improve it.”
“Hey guys I’m looking for a Ranked group.”
That’s what the forums are for.
“I don’t enjoy x it sucks.”
“This change you made is awful and people will quit.”
“I don’t like your game.”
“Don’t remove this feature I like it.”
This is not what the forums are for.