You sound like one of those piracy people. Every pirated game is a lost sale!! How exactly to you equate a player playing Horde mode in DB to a lost player in PvP? How do you know they wouldn’t play another game with Horde mode if it wasn’t in DB and therefore offer ZERO revenue. How do you know that a mixture of Horde and PvP isn’t exactly what this game wants and the PvP games they play would be the exact same?
Always leaping to an assumption that fits your argument.
Again. Killing Floor is a total co-op experience and they sell ONLY cosmetic DLC. Where is this assumption that DLC or P2P items are only valuable if you can show them off to 15 other players but when it’s 3-7 other players it is deemed pointless and invaluable.
Why would someone who plays multiple modes in DB be less likely to invest in a character they can play in PvP AND a Horde mode?
And what harm does it cause SD if someone who plays Horde exclusively only spends 30% of what a PvP player would? Again your assumption is that without Horde they’d be forced to play PvP and so spend more money. Really?
A Horde mode could support Horde exclusive items as has been mentioned by others in this thread multiple times.
You sound like one of those piracy people. Every pirated game is a lost sale!! How exactly to you equate a player playing Horde mode in DB to a lost player in PvP?
In the sense that I don’t think people don’t truly mind not having a choice. I see a venn diagram with two circles overlapping. The hardcore coop player, the player that doesn’t care and the hardcore pvp player. I think the player that doesn’t care is a very large group and if you can get all of them into the pvp group by taking away the alternative from them, then you should do that.
You’re not entirely wrong with that last assessment. I’m indeed reasoning from that perspective. It’s not just that games are harder to find, it also means that there’s less people taking part in this ‘race’ which automatically makes it less interesting.
Chess and poker aren’t just popular because they’re great games, they’re also popular because millions of players play them online every second of the day. That’s what makes it addictive. This weight of mass-appeal adds to the enjoyment of a game and I think this is why most chess-online games don’t offer players to have a go at checkers as well. I greatly enjoy Raven Shield but these days I’m lucky if I can find an active server, and even with that server fully populated the glamour of being one of the better players back when it was a really popular game is gone.
This may sound pathetic but gameplay wise I like to play DoW more than Starcraft. However, Starcraft has the appeal of having a popularity of esport magnitude while DoW has a dying community. So although I keep playing with my space orks, I keep feeling myself being constantly lured towards taking part in the Starcraft race, because that one is bigger, because in that one you can climb higher.
This facet then has a synergy with wanting to stand out. You want to compete AND stand out in games like these. Players are looking for fame, we’re all looking to nurture the desires of our inner megalomaniacs. A game becomes more fun when more people are playing it.
Firstly, 'grats on ignoring all the points that counter your arguments, multiple times. Very classy.
Again, you have zero evidence that this group exists and if they do exist, that your assumption would work. You’re happily ignoring a mountain of other choices in both F2P and paid, some of which are very high profile. So even if we assume you’re right, those players are going to play DB in a mode they have no affinity for because… they’re too stupid to buy any of the tens of other FPS games out there that do offer something they want?
But you are leaving out the entire other demographic from your argument - the co-op players. Even if a botmode mechanic somehow caused the pvp community to die out, it means the co-op community is thriving - you seem to not want to acknowledge this. Perhaps because they don’t matter in your eyes, since they are not helping add to YOUR fun…In the scenario that a co-op mode overran a f2p MP game, and essentially became the core mechanic, then the devs would see this and either A)change around their business model to better accommodate them or B) make the necessary changes to try and bring the game back to what their initial vision was.
This facet then has a synergy with wanting to stand out. You want to compete AND stand out in games like these. Players are looking for fame, we’re all looking to nurture the desires of our inner megalomaniacs. A game becomes more fun when more people are playing it.
This is entirely opinion. A game is more fun more people play it? Really?! Why is that I had the most fun in Quake 3 and UT in bot matches? Why is that even when playing an MMO, there are people who have the most fun soloing? Your argument is too black and white on this issue. I understand that these types of games give me the option to play with real people, and that’s fine, but they aren’t force feeding it down my throat or trying to persuade me which way is better, like a desperate sales associate at a store trying to make his monthly quota.
But you are leaving out the entire other demographic from your argument - the co-op players.
I’m also leaving out the RTS and Train simulator players. I really only care about people who want to play DB and the ones who don’t mind not playing anything else. That’s the target audience.
Yes. I can only answer that question with yes. You’re overestimating how set players are in their preferences. People want ‘the new game’, the new hype to compete in. I never thought I would see myself play a tank game. Tanks are for sweaty balding nerds living in the basements of their elderly parents. Yet I got completely sucked into it when I saw my friend play it and saw the huge community it had.
It’s admirable that you all have higher standards and exactly know what you want, but in this context I feel I’m more representative of the average F2P gamer than anyone else here.[QUOTE][/QUOTE]
So you only play WoT because your friends play it and it has a big community? Because your entire argument rests on the fact that people play whatever is put in front of them, even it is of no interest to them. You’re honestly saying you find WoT horrible, uninspiring, frustrating and boring yet still play it because, well, it’s in front of you? LOL
It’s admirable that you all have higher standards and exactly know what you want, but in this context I feel I’m more representative of the average F2P gamer than anyone else here.
Did you sit on a throne to write that?
Well SD is truly screwed then because of all the people on this alpha forum they have one person who represents a F2P player? Oh and again, please substantiate your grand claim of representation oh king of F2P gamers. hahaha
The battles themselves are fun but they wouldn’t be nearly as fun without the thrill of being with 19 completely different players in a match each battle and being positioned on a very long and active ladder. The Dow vs SC is even more telling.
Well SD is truly screwed then because of all the people on this alpha forum they have one person who represents a F2P player
Yeah I’m afraid so. It’s one thing to say what you want in a game, but saying what would drive you to start purchasing things within a game that is already given to you is something completely different. It’s a question that people on this forum don’t ask themselves enough because expressing your own ‘willingness to pay’ is something people are uncomfortable with.
It would really help the case for co-op though. What would make you spent equal or more money on the co-op game? And if you’re now reasoning in how much you’re willing to spent in order to keep the enterprise itself viable then you’re thinking in the wrong way. F2P isn’t a non-profit organisation relying on donations to stay alive, it’s not a ‘pay what you want’ type of deal like Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails did. F2P is a system that offers items that have such value to people that they’re willing to pay money for it.
Why is that I had the most fun in Quake 3 and UT in bot matches?
Beats me. I had fun in bot matches but when I figured out the way to play online when my parents weren’t at home the phone bill quickly soared to unprecedented levels.
Well, he has tried to make his point using whatever info he has to back his opinion. Not ignorance, maybe a little ego. But if it wasn’t for tokamak being the Devil’s Advocate, this thread would have been a one page long happy fest and not the interesting conversation it turned out to be.
As he is the only one in here who is verbally against adding anything other to this game than multiplayer competitive modes, perhaps this should be a sign to anyone at SD watching that a majority of the players in here think that additional content, like bots or a horde mode, would be beneficial to DB by increasing the total player population. It’s up to them to figure out how to market the pay items to all of these different types of players.
In the end, it all comes down to budgets. If SD has only enough time and money to release a kick-ass competitive F2P multiplayer game and not much more, then that’s what they should focus on… for now. Oh yeah, and the SDK map/mod toolkit stuff!
Wow. Did you just try claim that?
I would ask you to provide proof for that but I actually don’t care for your opinion any more.
Is the air very rarefied all the way up top of that very high horse?
I would put my “f2p creds” here except for the fact that they don’t actually matter that much and trying to pull rank like that is a real @$$hat move.
Argument through authority? Logical fallacy. Even if you are more representative of the average f2p’er (hint: you’re probably not) you STILL need to actually back your statements up. Making that claim lessens your argument because you’ve tarnished it with the attempt to win by sounding authoritative. Instead all you’ve done is make people like you less and be less inclined to think you know what you’re talking about.
@ Sin: Sounds like you haven’t been privy to some his other hijacks, generally 15 pages of him saying the same thing while ignoring the major points is about the norm. I have to credit his ability to reword something many many times though, that is an art… at least this one stayed on the rails.
Well, I appreciate his efforts to debate his point ad nauseam. He was all by himself in his views.
I wish he’d put that much effort into finding and writing up some bugs to directly help improve the current state of DB. I haven’t seen his name very often in the “DB Bugs, Exploits, and Technical Issues” forum. I’m sure this game could use a tester of his perseverance…
@ Sin-> Disclaimer: I was making fun of Toka haha, but I compliment his persistence. Toka was chosen to test the structural integrity of the private DB forum, but I thought we all knew that!
I’m glad you all found a way to get this out of your system but if there’s any points you feel I need to address -preferably points I haven’t written a page of text on already- then do let me know. The F2P dimension on the offered content within a game is an interesting topic and it would be sad to see it go to waste like this.
In truth I’m hoping for some counter-Tokamak who is willing to take on my points in depth. That’d be fun.
People have tackled and countered your points. You either refuse to accept any possibility of validity to claims that counter your own, or you simply ignore the points that make your position not viable.
You also use the following logical fallacies (at the very least):
No true Scotsman, moving goalposts, false dichotomy, argument through authority and argument through ignorance.
At least other people are willing to concede that most of this is primarily based around opinions and preferences.
And then you claim to be more knowledgeable than everyone else?
And then you try to misdirect with more condescension?
I don’t think the core of my point is being adressed, there’s some objections that may be valid, and I could have an in-depth response on that but that would be a departure from the most important part of the discussion.
I’ll try something radical, I’ll put the entire essence of my argument into one sentence and then I’d like to see other people attempt the same:
"Because F2P relies on creating the desire to buy in-game content, SD should not create an additional, less profitable mode that differs in such a profound way that it can be regarded as a competition to their core game. "
That’s all there is to it. Now you tear it apart and we’ll see where it goes.
