Any love for some bots?

(tokamak) #121

Such a mode could result in purchases, granted. I’m saying that it will be substantially less because the player-conflict element is gone. Until the last century we used to go to war as ostentatiously as possible in order to intimidate the enemy. That’s the drive that makes you want to stand out.

Then why would you even want to present players with the choice between a mode that will make them purchase more, and a mode that will make them purchase less? People are sheep, they have no idea what they want, if you present them with one option they will even feel better than when you don’t impose the responsibility to choice on them.

Even if both sides were equally profitable, then it would still be better to limit it to one mode or at least very similar modes, that way people have the idea they’re playing the same game and you don’t end up in a fractured community. In that TF2’s horde mode was a very risky move and we’ve yet to see the full consequences to the playerbase of that.

That’s why I say, leave the options to spent the time in a less consumptive way out and only give them the way in which they will spent the most money.

(DarkangelUK) #122

Substantially less than what? Are you guessing that people who may have spent money on pvp will suddenly change their mind and pay less/nothing on horde/coop?

(tokamak) #123

Yes and I already wrote a few essays on why that is.

(DarkangelUK) #124

On what guessing is?

(SinDonor) #125

I’d like to read these essays. I’m interested to know how many years of experience you have in the industry, Tok. I’ve got 15+ with over 4 years in the videogame industry. Not bragging rights, but I would just like to read why you think the way you do and what proof you have to back up your claims. I’ve already seen some what of how certain types of F2P can fail with the apps we made at Discovery Bay Games and I understand what goes into making AAA titles while working at EA.

Let me know when they are available for public consumption. No joke. I am not trying to be a dick here. I am interested.

With that being said, so far, nothing you have said here in this thread has given me solid proof on why adding bots or a horde mode to a F2P FPS like DB would be detrimental. If it were my decision, and I had the available resources, I would add both to my game and then market things to the population within those modes.

(stealth6) #126

I agree with tok that the appeal of buying stuff is to show it off, so the more people to show it to the better. Whether bots are detrimental to this or not, I have no idea.

(SinDonor) #127

Buying certain stuff like skins and gun bling is nice to show off vs other players. But for “private” bot matches and horde mode you can have: New map packs. New weapons/classes. New bot types (dinosaurs, zombies, robots, aliens, etc). New horde mode levels and objectives? New horde mode player skins (like Team USA, or Classic Movie Heros, or Naughty Nurse pack, etc). New game types (CTF, Infection, Griff Ball, etc).

Adding bots just allows people to enjoy ALL of that stuff without getting their low-skilled butts kicked forcing them to play online vs high-level players.

Plus, SD already has a lot of the work done with bots, as the AI in Brink was pretty good for me and my friends. (Except the Easy-AI bots in pub matches).

(tokamak) #128

Getting your low skilled butt kicked online can also be an incentive to buy more stuff. I really have a problem with compartmentalising the playerbase.

(H0RSE) #129

I think one of the things Tok is not accounting for, is that you can offer players different things depending on the gamemode - Sin covered this above. Besides, even if there are less people to “show off” a players cool stuff, those items can always carry over to pvp mode, where all the cool kids will be waiting for you to flaunt your items, so there is still an incentive to purchase them. I really think he is over-exaggerating - it seems the people that he has such a concern for are players that have no intention to buy anything ever, AND only ever play bot modes, so even if SD offered them the moon and the stars, they would still have no intention to buy.

a bot/co-op could in theory, could fracture the community, but accounting for the fact 1) In a game model like this, the majority of the playerbase would be in pvp, and 2) the crossover that would occur between the different modes, the amount of “damage” done would likely be negligible at best.

(zenstar) #130

Bulletstorm has leash colour dlc. There is no pvp in bulletstorm. Only co-op arena. I’m sure there are other similar examples… various skin dlcs for co-op games.

What about the capcom colour packs for streetfighter where the only way that the other person could even see that you’re using a different colour is if they also have the colour pack. That happened and sold.

(tokamak) #131

Exactly! Despite the horde mode there’s still an incentive to purchase them.

(H0RSE) #132

That is just one example he is using. People enjoy playing bot/co-op modes for different reasons, even high skilled players. And how exactly would getting your ass kicked give you any incentive to buy things, seeing as there is no ‘pay to win’ mechanic? How is getting your ass kicked even an incentive to keep playing the game?

Yes, I understand that it serves as a way to push people to get better, but let’s not kid ourselves - not everyone thinks this way - not everyone wants to get better. They just want a game they can jump on, and have some fun, and if they have the option of either playing a pvp mach and get stomped, or play a different game, what do you think they will choose, especially when the game is f2p, leaving no sort of obligation or anything “forcing” them to play it?

SO why is a bot mode a bad idea?

(tokamak) #133

It competes with the core which is truly profitable.

(BioSnark) #134

And that’s the problem with your essays. That unsubstantiated premise.

Super monday night combat sells cosmetics and classes. That may sounds oddly familiar. It’s a wonder they have a horde mode and bots and haven’t been shut down yet. You can write essays but if your premise is not backed with anything, it says nothing to the validity of your argument.

For this game, I’m glad we’re past arguing over including multiple game types. Progress.

(tokamak) #135

SMNC is versus in it’s core. I think they would perform better without the horde mode.

(ailmanki) #136

Specializing on only one thing, is not a good idea either, which you refer as “the core”.

Since bots don’t complain, its easy to generate a lot of stuff as SinDonor already wrote. And that stuff can be sold very well. Better then a DLC:

(tokamak) #137

Specialising on one thing is a bad idea when it’s a full retail game. Then you want to have as many possible reasons for people to buy the game. Simply trying to appeal to as many people as possible but not actually bringing them together in the same game is an unsustainable in the F2P universe.

(H0RSE) #138

having optional bot/co-op mode does little to “sabotage” this formula. As I already mentioned, a bot/co-op mode could in theory, fracture the community, but accounting for the fact 1) In a game model like this, the majority of the playerbase would be in pvp, and 2) the crossover that would occur between the different modes, the amount of “damage” done would likely be negligible at best.

The core audience to games like this, is always pvp, so how is introducing a co-op/bot mode detrimental to this? Without the mode, you have the core audience regardless. With the mode, you still have the core audience, and potentially even more now.

Your “not bringing them together” theory, is also flawed, because even with strictly pvp modes this can occur - like games that offer modes like TDM, CTF and KOTH…they effectively split the community, no bots needed. Even in W:ET, one could argue that the community was split, between people playing campaign, objective and stopwatch games. I know I rarely ever played Stopwatch, and usually only played Campaign or objective. Now what if Stopwatch was the only gamemode? well, I probably would have just went back to RTCW.

(tokamak) #139

Every single minute a player is playing in horde mode is one minute less in the pvp game.

Your “not bringing them together” theory, is also flawed, because even with strictly pvp modes this can occur - like games that offer modes like TDM, CTF and KOTH…they effectively split the community, no bots needed.

I don’t think different competitive modes are a really big issue. I would avoid it if possible but at least they’re similar enough that crossing-over in between matches wouldn’t really disrupt a player session. On COD there’s map cycles with different modes, people don’t really have a huge preference so they don’t mind which one comes along. The teams can stay the same, the server can stay the same, you’re still fighting in the same way and the matches all have about the same length.

A horde gamer however, would. That’s the nature of horde games, it’s about lasting as long as possible. It’s about having the same friends with you, it’s about trying again if it it fails, it can easily take up your entire evening. And it’s fun stuff but it’s essentially a different game.

(H0RSE) #140

But what’s your point? Let’s say for arguments sake, the botmodes for DB were making a killing bringing in revenue for SD - where is your argument that it’s a bad thing?

A horde gamer however, would. That’s the nature of horde games, it’s about lasting as long as possible. It’s about having the same friends with you, it’s about trying again if it it fails, it can easily take up your entire evening. And it’s fun stuff but it’s essentially a different game.

You are still hung up on this horde game thing…you are aware that bot/co-op games can be the exact same thing as a pvp match, just with bots, right? I’m pretty sure the original post was simply asking for bot support, not a specific gamemode. And again, what you mention - playing with friends, trying it again, taking up an entire evening, etc. where exactly is any of this bad?

From what I can decipher from your posts, your main reason for being so adamantly opposed to the idea of bots, is because you fear it may take players away from the gametypes you enjoy playing, and since you enjoy pvp, taking people away, essentially means making it harder to find populated games. In other words, you oppose bot support because it may ruin your fun. This “NIMBY” mindset of yours, isn’t helping your argument.